2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Can you provide hard evidence to support this? And note that what in your opinion is a poor judgement isn't corruption. So do you have evidence that officials have been bribed or are consistently supporting one nation over another (and note we need statistical evidence to at least a p<.05 level of significance)?

And why are you watching if it's a 'corrupt farce'?

Sorry, Edwin, I'm not picking on you personally. But I wish people would put up solid evidence of corruption, bias, etc, rather than just asserting it's there. If there's evidence (and as I said, it must pass rigid statistical scrutiny) then we will all listen. But if not, then can we grumble about other things instead?

I have a reason for being tetchy about this. I currently have a doctoral student who, every week of the athletics season, is judging at one athletics event or another, and is very likely to be a judge at the 2012 Olympics. Like the majority of officials, other than very modest travel expenses, he gets zero financial recompense and does it simply for the love of the sport. But it's these guys who make sure the events run smoothly for athletes on million dollar contracts, appearance money, etc. Before sounding off about these people, perhaps just stop and think - just what *proof* do you have?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Well Andrew I have no hard evidence to support the charge—and not enough knowledge of Greco-Roman wrestling to even have an independent, informed opinion. But there are plenty of times in Olympic history of unfair judging—most that do not see the light of day until well after the fact.

Diving and ice skating are two disciplines that have had serious enough scandals that the scoring methodology was changed, with the women’s singles in figure skating having had charges confirmed.

Additionally, you may recall the 1972 award of the men's basketball gold medal to the USSR, after an ending that I still can’t believe when watching replays today.

The facts are well-known by now as they were then, although one that came to light years later, was the Pommie ref who was instrumental in bending and breaking the rules (and acceding to an Olympic official who had no authority as to the game conduct), said in an interview that he had been waiting for such a chance. As far as I know the ref from Brazil has remained silent.

There have also been numerous instances of decisions over the years in sports such as boxing that strain credulity.

One instance is misfortunate, two could be considered understandable errors, three perhaps incompetence, but the evidence over the years suggests a pattern. I’m not claiming that everything is rigged. But I do believe that it would be foolish to think that puzzling wins and losses are always the result of honest errors or differences in opinion.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

The summer olympics seem to have a ridiculous quantity of events on the roster. Dressage? Race-walking? Ping pong? Puhleeze.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Ping Pong came in to the Olympics at Seoul in 1988, so it is not exactly new. Dressage made its first Olympic appearance in 1912 (when you had to be a military officer in order to compete—no civilians and no noncoms). The 20k walk was introduced in 1956, but the 50k walk has been in the Olympics since 1932.

The very first walking event was in the 1908 Olympics.

Is this the first time that you have actually paid any attention to the games?

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I know a lot of wrestling fans, myself included, are not very happy with the current rules set by FILA, to much is decided on coin flips, last person to score, etc.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

There are a lot of problems with the IOC, especially the way its standards shift based on the liberalism of the host country. From the sound of things, that wrestler probably had good reason to be upset with the judging.

But on that podium you are representing your country before the world. Acting like an infant not only disgraces yourself, it disgraces your country. Sweden deserved better.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Bolt's margin of victory in the 100m was ridiculous. Too bad he decided to showboat with 25m to go, he probably could have done a sub 9.60 if he ran hard all the way through the race.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

I just got home and saw the replay of the swimming and men's 100M race. Ridiculous.

I think Bolt let up because he didn't want to pull a Derek Redmond.

As for weighting the medals, how about 3 points for gold, 2 points for silver and 1 point for bronze?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

true, but if he'd played by the rules and just submitted a protest, nobody would be talking about it right now.

don't know who that is. but in an interview, Bolt said it's better to break the record by a little than a lot, inferring he wants to break it again later, etc., thus extending the attention he'll get.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

The swimming was awesome but I agree the 100M was ridiculous.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Refusing the medal reminds of the time Russia beat the US in basketball so many years ago. Till then, the US had won every BB gold medal. Of course it took a fixed game to do it.

If I recall correctly, the US team wouldn't participate in the awards ceremony and last I heard, their silver medals are still unclaimed. I highly agree with their choice.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

This is probably going to bring the wrath of the HTF on me, but I've got to say it. In Europe, the USA team's behaviour after this match was taken as acting like a big baby, and rightly so. The result to non-Americans and non-Russians [i.e. impartial observers] was a close call, and possibly the result of a refereeing error, but to call it deliberate rigging was farcical. But the behaviour of the USA was like 'this is our gold medal by right, we lost and so we're going to have a big sulk'. The fact that the result had got that close to the wire meant that the Russian team must have been closely matched anyway, a fact conveniently ignored. Or is it being claimed that every Russian point was fraudulently gained?

This is what I mean about getting hot under the collar about supposed corruption, etc, when a favoured side doesn't win. Decisions go unfairly against people, but it's rarely down to blatant rigging of results. I can only think of one instance. Namely, the admission a couple of years ago of fixing which of the former Soviet Bloc countries won medals in ice skating (or was it gymnastics?). But that was essentially deciding which within the Soviet Bloc country won - at the time these countries dominated these sports comprehensively. It also meant that if these countries shared the medals equally, given the regimes of the time, the competitors and coaches were put under less pressure and were less at risk of punishment.

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I'm sorry. Andrew, but the Americans got hosed in '72. What the hell was up with all the multiple free-throws that the Soviets were allowed to have?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

I'm not saying the refereeing was perfect in that match, but I can't say it was blatantly biased. Given the ease with which you can be penalised in basketball for e.g. unecessary contact, etc, I'd have expected rather subtler checks to be made on the US team through that sort of measure if the match had been fixed.

I'm not saying the match result shouldn't have hurt, but every nation has similar tales. E.g. that Asian gymnast denied a medal because of a refereeing error that even when pointed out wasn't corrected; the England soccer team and the 'hand of God' incident, etc, etc, etc. But it's one thing to grumble about a bad refereeing decision and quite another to accuse the authorities of match rigging.

I think I'm correct in saying that when match rigging has been found to take place, it's almost always been the result of players being bribed. There was that infamous case in baseball, but other sports are not immune (e.g. cricket and soccer have both had scandals in recent years).

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Actually Andrew the ref from the UK (as I mentioned in my prior post) later said that he had been waiting for a chance to influence a game (in order to make the game more competitive was his justification).

Further the game was ordered to be restarted by an IOC official who had no authority over the game once it was underway. The refs (from Brazil and the UK) Acquiesced to his demand even though they were obliged to run the game themselves.

And did I mention that the protest was disallowed by a jury along cold war lines.

Actually the last figure skating scandal involved a judge from France (not an Eastern block country).

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

andrew have you seen the last few moments of that game.

hbo produced a doc that very good.
I dont know if it was ever put onto dvd though.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

The Roy Jones Jr fight in 1988 comes to mind.

The scandal
YouTube - Roy Jones Jr vs. Park Si-Hun Olympic Scandal

The entire fight.
YouTube - Boxing Roy Jones Jr vs Park Si-Hun (1988 Olympic Final)

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Yep, that Roy Jones fight was the first real concrete memory I have of an Olympic travesty. I was in my early teens at the time, and watching my first real Olympics with my father, and it was so apparent even to me who won the fight. It was like watching a 100m runner come in 20m ahead of 2nd place, but just awarding the gold to the guy 20m behind anyway. It was that obvious who should have won the fight.

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Yes, following on the previous Los Angeles Olympics where 36 out of 37 decisions involving American boxers went in favour of the USA [cited on the YouTube link given in an earlier post]. But strangely, nobody has brought up these multiple decisions that oh so conveniently favoured the USA on its home turf, only the single one that disadvantaged an American. Hmm ...


Proof? Or alternatively, perhaps games involving US referees are seen by everyone else as being biased and this was a desire to restore the balance? We need the whole documented picture.


Yep, saw it live at the time and have seen a recording of it numerous times since. It was a bad refereeing decision, but I still can't see in spite of everything that's been said that it was rigged.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

so we're talking about Olympic officiating impartiality and you're admitting the LA boxing matches were a travesty?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

I don't have a problem with him easing up, but that reason doesn't cut it. I'd rather shock the world with a Beamon-like 29' 2.5" in the long jump or Michael Johnson's 19.32 in the 200m. If he had run a 9.59, which the commentators estimated he could have run had he run all out, that would be in the same category. I love records that blow the former one away. Beamon's long jump represented the equivalent of something like 3 centuries worth of improvement (based on the gradual improvement that track records normally conform to). If not for Powell's controversial WR achieved decades later, Beamon may still have the record (which is absolutely unheard of in track).

I'd love to see Bolt try his best to beat Johnson's 19.32. Maybe he will try fully, as opposed to the 100m where he was breaking his own record.

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Gee, once again Andrew is telling us how the rest of the world feels about Americans and . . . Surprise! Surprise!! . . . It's a distinctly negative feeling. The outcome of Men's 100M Medley Relay was less predictable.

The man really needs a hobby.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Looks like impartiality is only unquestionable when the USA loses.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Perhaps you should pay attention to what you're reading. I didn't say anything about these events being "new".

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Indeed you did not Malcolm. But given that you were complaining about both the number of sports and these in specific—well taking issue with a sport that has been included for almost 100 years sort of indicates that you have not been paying attention.

Raising rhythm gymnastics as being problematic or (as Jeff mentioned) synchronized anything seems fair enough. But walking (silly as the gait appears) has been a real competitive sport for a very long time.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

No, not proof Andrew, but strongly suggestive. As I recall that Pommie ref was quoted in an article in Sports Illustrated (I know—yet another example of biased American journalism) some years back and I can no longer cite the exact quote nor the exact source.

But I do read with a bit of humor your suggestion that (if there were any) deliberate bad judging or officiating by a Pom (or by anyone else, by implication) was because the Yanks had done it first.

Here is the whole documented picture:

We was robbed!

Others have been as well. Including the robbing of our less fortunate brothers across the pond by ourselves.

As a bit of an aside, cricket, which has documented quite a bit of cheating by some players (as you mentioned), also has a history of very dubious decisions by its officials (something that you indicated had not happened). The press in England and Australia, as well as the general cricketing public felt most strongly that visiting sides did not get a fair go in the subcontinent, especially India. Specifically it was felt that lbw decisions were not awarded to the tourists by the (then) home officials.

And as you were kind enough to point out how the rest of the world felt about the American basketball team in 1972, perhaps you would like to know how the Indians and Pakistanis felt about England’s charges as to their biased refs. Or perhaps not.

I have seen numerous articles (both in the Australian and English press) that gathered statistics to prove the point. And while no one is ever sure why the ICC does anything, what they did was change the rules so that both on-field officials are from neutral countries. Now possibly the ICC made the change to remove any lingering doubt as to the official’s impartiality—or perhaps they made the change because there was some truth to the charges.

And of course those from Sri Lanka were sure that the Aussies were out to get them just because Murali was no-balled in a ODI against England (I was at the Adelaide Oval for that match). Something denied of course, but that official’s career was pretty much over at that point.

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You are correct of course that without these guys the sports would not run as they do. And I am very appreciative of their efforts. However;

I know that I had mentioned the figure skating judge from France before, but I could not remember the details. So I looked them up and it all came back. Perhaps this will satisfy even Andrew, as it involves no American or English competitors or judges. In fact, perhaps a bit of a black mark on the Americans as this happened at the Salt Lake City Olympics of 2002.

A Canadian pair, Jamie Salé and David Pelletier who were mild favorites to win the gold in the pairs figure skating (and therefore breaking the stranglehold held by the Russians in this event). After the short program, the Canadians were a close second to the Russian pair. It came down to which pair would win the long program.

The Russians made a minor error and the Canadians skated both brilliantly and flawlessly. Most of the commentators (I was watching Aussie commentary) thought that Salé and Pelletier had wrapped it up, but they were second and the Russians first (5 judges giving the Russians first and 4 to the Canadians).

Afterwards, the French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne admitted she had traded a first place vote for the Russians in the pairs for a first place vote from the Russians for the French ice dancing pair of Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat.

This resulted in the suspension of several judges and officials. Also the results of the competition were rescinded and first place, along with the gold medals were given to the Canadians.

Specific enough?

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

Perhaps it will get him more attention over the short run, as he breaks it from time to time. But no way we he ever get the massive attention given to Bob Beamon when he shattered the world record for the long jump.

There may have been a bigger record-breaking event, but I am not aware of it

To be the first to jump both 28 feet and 29 feet all in the same jump—now that is something to remember for more than a day or a week.

Re: 2008 Summer Olympics - Beijing, China

well in the relay finals, if Bolt's down by alot, we may see him run hard for the entire length. if he's winning, maybe not so much