Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Link


Yes, there are all kinds of people posting:

Hobbyists aren't uncompromising?:
Same link to post#85 as the above.


In My Humble Opinion, "studio people" are human. Their tired of the criticisms of the wide internet and are tired of being nailed to the cross, and in some cases unjustly, but how many are without sin?

Link Personally, I think the key sentence is:
"Everyone has their opinion,and I'm not one to really tell our columnists what they can and can't say, and what opinions they should have."



The main message I'm committed to and try to stress in all forums I frequent and address to ALL studios, regarding HIGH DEFINITION Blu-ray authoring, is this:
Movie Lovers want movies in their collections that are as "authentic as possible to the theatrical presentation".

Also IMHO, Mr. Michael Hafner nails the reality of the situation in this entire post #95.


What is your opinion?

Paul

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I can´t say, that I really blame the "studio people", if they´re a bit tired of the negative talk. I mean with e.g. 10-page thread, how can they find those "valid arguments" over these endless "rants"? Then again, if guys like us (or better yet, guys like RAH, B.Hunt, etc) won´t "deliver the message", not sure who´ll..

So again, not a black&white-issue.

I sincerely hope, that the (right) studio people are reading the forums at least from time to time, but I can see the point that this Penton-Man is saying. I don´t fully agree with him, but I understand the point..

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

The complaint from studio people regarding inaccurate information being posted is nothing new and I have heard them complained about it beforehand, long before this format war came along. However, with that being said, I do think the format war has made it worse the last couple of years and now that the war is over with plenty of bad feelings left as residue to go around, the studio personnel have generally turned a deaf ear to much of the internet chatter.

We do have some legitimate issues regarding removal of film grain and detail due to excessive DNR being applied along with too much EE on certain BR releases. But, I'm afraid our message might be getting lost due to the issues I mentioned in my previous paragraph and the constant stream of negativity that is being posted on the internet regarding so many BR releases.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I feel the same way.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Hell, we even have a thread about dvds that are better than blu-ray which to me is far from the reality I have experienced in this hobby because the worse BR disc I have in my collection is a lot better than its SD DVD counterpart.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Removal of film grain, DNR and EE aren't things studio execs should have to turn to internet forums for, these are technical flaws being introduced into the product which don't belong there. The same goes for edited prints - these studios have plenty of internal resources and people who should know what belongs in a given print if they do their homework.

Consumers do have a right to complain when the products they buy are laced with defects, but I do think the noise level has become so high (some warranted, some not) that it is easier to filter it all out than to try and address the real problems, especially if it means going back and doing something properly - which should have been done in the first place. There is also a legitimate complaint when feature sets are lessened for a higher end (BR) release (this works both ways as per the lack of Smiley prints of HTWWW on DVD). Some of these are marketing decisions, but there should be no surprise if they piss people off as a result.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

So what is the solution? Consumers should just shut up because only the opinions of insiders should have weight?

I, also, don't entirely agee with that quote from Mr. Hunt, especially that bit about public rallying crys being ineffective. Until Mr. Harris raised the issue of excessive DNR/EE on the PATTON BD there was little if any discussion about excessive DNR/EE from anyone, at least on this board. The issue came to the forefront only after he went public with his criticisms.

I'm not an insider so I can only speculate on this part, but I expect that there was little discussion on excessive DNR/EE in Blu-ray releases amongst insiders until a public hue and cry went up all over boards like these. So Mr. Hunt's assertion that public outcry is ineffective seems misplaced, because the insiders only took notice once the outsiders started hollering. If people hadn't started hollering there wouldn't have been any concerted insider action to adrress the problems. Things would have continued on their merry way, unchanged.

I also think that it is somewhat arrogant of the studios to be dismissive of these boards because of what occurred here and on others. It really is arrogant to think that they can absolve themselves of responsibility for the divisiveness and disinformation that occurred on these board during the format war. It was their side taking and manufacturing alliances that forced HT enthusiasts (outside of a few) to take sides in the first place. Now they are going to turn up their noses and dismiss opinions expressed on these boards because of the infighting that they were largely responsible for? If it hadn't been for them there would have been no format war and the vitriol and excess that accompanied it.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

The best that guy can say is accuse me of being a HD DVD fanboy. Because I'm too "critical" of his beloved Blu-ray Some of these people are spending way too much time at the kumbaya forum. Attacking or mocking me every time I get too critical but no commentary about other threads I made where I recommend or praise the BD release. Pathetic. I can't even defend myself because some idiot mod got personal when I pointed what I think of the 1st release Filth Element (and this was waaaaaaaay before the re-release ) I lasted a couple of days before the ban

Anyways that forum is not exactly the place to have a healthy debate without being banned outright (you will hurt their feelings) and certainly not the demographic to explain films.

I don't toe the line. Ever.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Studios read the forums. Anyone claiming otherwise is . . . . . .

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

So let me see if I got this straight? The studios don't or rarely read the forums anymore because they've become so negative as a result of a format war that they started. Boy that's rich.

That's fine studio folk, put your heads in the sand. Ignore the enthusiasts who would otherwise help grow your format and watch it die on the vine as a result. Brilliant.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Sure there was. It just didn't get the same level of attention until someone of RAH's stature took on the issue.

How do I know? Because I was one of the people discussing it.

M.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Whoops I did not realize there the admins name is also Mike


Michael its the other Mike!!!

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I so agree with everything said in that link. I’ve worked for organisations which attracted the attention of very vocal postings and campaigns on internet forums. Despite the fact that we were the professionals who had masses of information, experience and data and discussed issues with a wide range of other businesses and individuals, these people always spoke arrogantly as if they knew far more than we did and that they were the experts. In fact they were not experts. They were people who obsessively gathered bits of information, mainly from the internet, usually inaccurate or distorted and simply repeated what others had said. Companies take little or no interest in these negative internet forum campaigns.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Edwin,
This HTF thread started last year before the Christmas Holidays was a long discussion thread that talked about these issues long before the "Patton" or "The Longest Day" discs came out. Matter of fact, I think you posted in that thread.





Crawdaddy

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Perhaps, but it should be noted that the thread linked is specifically about Robert Harris's "safe Blu-ray list". I think it's safe to say that Robert Harris is "an expert" with regards to how films should look. The insider in that thread, Penton Man, also makes an off-hand swipe at Harris by bringing up the much-maligned HD-DVD of SPARTACUS, a film Harris restored on film. I couldn't help but think that Penton Man did that intentionally as a way of trying to question Mr. Harris's credibility, even though Harris was not involved with the HD-DVD of SPARTACUS.

Vincent

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I love how things have turned in the world. So we have reached a point where someone giving their money for a product is an idiot if they aren't happy there are flaws which have no logical reason to be there. Instead of companies wanting to produce a better product the mentality is that the consumer should STFU and be giddy for whatever they are given to buy. NICE.

It is pretty simple- the oh so moronic consumers complaining have complained only about 2 things really: DNR and EE. These do not have to be there and it doesn't take an "expert" to know this. For someone to imply that all consumers are doing is complaining about every disc release is lame.

Maybe studios should care about this stuff since it is what helps keep their jobs. Last time I checked these people get paid by us mornonic consumers buying their stuff.

Seeing that mentality makes it pretty clear to me why movies like Meet Dave get the green light and become huge bombs. Maybe studios should get more intelligent people working for them and they'd make more cash and have less complaints. or, they can keep being like GM and not give a crap what the consumer wants and wonder why their sales are down.

The next time a customer at my job complains when my office screws up I will simply tell them to shove it because they are amateurs. That will go over well and I am sure they will just be dying to give me more business.

Pathetic....but it is what i expect in the year 2008 with the north american society we have.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Can you believe I forgot about that thread? It was huge. And what is worse is that I forgot that I posted in it. Oy!

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

That Pent-up Man is actually going to someone else's "insider" thread to post all that nonsense! And then another "insider" needs to come in to defend the legal inhabitant of the thread. And then they quarrel for some time.

Even if it were true what PM writes there, does he want to tell us that (1) because studio people allegedly no longer read "the" forums it is now evident it isn't true what they write on those forums, or (2) the loud and exaggerated posts spoil it all for those publishing reasonably and expertly, or (3) see what you achieved already: better stop posting all the critique, because you only drive the Olympic Inhabitants away from your dwellings?


Cees

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Studio executives rarely know anything technical about film, much less what a vintage film is supposed to look like. That isn't an indictment of execs, it's just not their job.

The people who are now running or having some influence over the home video divisions of some of the studios seem to have come from a video background rather than film. As a result they to don't seem to know what something shot on film is supposed to look like, either that or they just don't like that look and take it on themselves to change it for the "better".

Now this is clearly not all the studios and not even every release from every studio. There are plenty of BDs out there that are stunningly beautiful representations of the original film.

Doug

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

My view is very similar to Phil's; I want films released as close to the original theatrical presentation as possible. But at the same time I realize there are other factors that prevent this from happening and can appreciate some of those factors. It doesn't mean I like them all and I don't mind a post or two stating a unsatisfactory view of them, but I won't take it much beyond that. I love this hobby and I don't want it to become all about the 5% that I dislike. That's just not any fun.


And I don't think I would blame the format war as it seems too simplistic and convenient of an excuse for some of the current discourse. I'm sure some people "can't stand each other" due to heated debates over previous discussions but there needs to be a level of personal responsibility with ones own post. To blame a format war for one's own attitude or view removes that level of accountability.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Penton is a mixed bag. He can be helpful, and he can be a hindrance. Whereas guys like Bill Hunt and Max have no problem calling a spade a spade (which is saying something for Max, since he works for a company actually invovled with the BDA), I have never once heard Penton level or acknowledge even a constructive criticism of Blu-Ray. He's got an arrogant streak to him that definitely can rub you the wrong way, but he's worshiped in some circles. I think he strained his credibility a bit trying to cast doubt on Robert Harris' ability to tell a faithful transfer from an overly processed one.

I'm sure some studio reps don't frequent forums like this as much as they used to due to all the negativity during the format war, but evidence suggests they definitely do still come to places like this for instant feedback. Even Josh, the guy running the show at blu-ray.com, was talking up how the studios do pay attention to forums such as it a couple of weeks ago on the front page.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I doubt that was the point. IMO (can´t speak for this Penton, etc) the point is, that there are these "valid arguments" (which indeed could include some screencaps!), and then there are these "I saw one screencap from the net!"-type of "doomsday"-rants. With e.g. 10-page thread, it´s hard for those "studio people" to fully see which one is which. Sadly, this is the truth, since people are seeing "DNR", "EE", "grain removal" etc everywhere now (sometimes valid info, sometimes.. perhaps not that valid).

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I'm not with a studio but I read the threads here in this section everyday and I really can't recall too many "happy" posts. It seems the movies have been forgotten and that people just post about things they are unhappy with.

It's certainly not just here. It seems every HD forum is full of unhappy people that are upset about this, that or both.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I can tell you for a fact that all the studios read this forum --
probably more than a lot of other forums that go unmoderated.
I'll explain more about that in a moment.

I can also tell you that studio reps will not participate in these
forums due to the fact that they know the consequences involved.
By nature of the Internet, people will be not respectful to them no
matter how much they are asked. The moment someone is unhappy
with a studio decision, they go for the attack.

On the plus side, I usually receive calls and emails from the studios
when they see a complaint brought up on this forum that they wish
to see addressed. That is why you will often see me interject in
threads information that I have recently received pertaining to concerns
some of you have brought up.

On the other hand, studios have personally complained to me in
the past about the the type of posts that exist on this and other forums.
It's not the constructive criticism that bothers them, rather the demands
that some of our members make upon them.

Granted, the studios are not perfect. Some studios care about their
product more than others. It's obvious to most of us who consistently
puts out the best product.

Additionally, there are always internal reasons concerning why a
release is not done exactly as the fanbase wishes it to be. Sometimes
licensing issues get in the way. Sometimes bandwidth on a disc gets
in the way. Sometimes it is just something that didn't cross the minds
of the studio people to include.

While we encourage our members to voice their concerns, we are
just amazed how dissatisfaction easily turns into hyperbole complaints
that serve no purpose other than the studios to distance themselves
further from the situation.

Case in point: We were very close to securing a chat with a studio,
but thanks to a group of members ripping them a new a-hole over
a recent release, all hope was lost in obtaining their cooperation.

In another recent thread concerning the fact that Fox and Warner can't
come to terms of the release of the '60 series "Batman," members are
posting slanderous remarks at each of the studios without realizing that
perhaps there is more to this situation than what they may perceive. Do
you think posing obsceneties on a public forum is going to help the situation?

I have been called a "studio shill" across the Internet for years
because I will readily defend a studio when I see it fit. What people
don't understand is that there are those of us who run forums and
news sites that are in communication with studio reps on a regular
basis and see a side to the situation that the public does not. In most
cases we cannot discuss the reasons behind a perceived dissatisfied
DVD or BD release, but we can act as mediators to calm our members.

This is the reason why studio people continue to read our board. We
will go into threads where angry members are posting, and play
devil's advocate to the situation. There have been times that
members who have made some outspoken remarks against a studio will
rescinded them at a later point, simply because we have privately engaged
dialogue with the studio, offering to calm the anger in the forum in hopes of
achieving improved results in the future. For that we get called "shills," but I
think some of you already see the benefits of being diplomatic. It is very
important that we keep the studios here and listening rather than chase them
away.

Listen, I can tell you point blank that there are only a few studios left
that still put that extra effort into their product. There are studios that
are full of marketing people who want more product out within a specified
window without a care in the world for how well that transfer from 3-4 years
ago looks today. This is the problem we face. I realize and accept that
complaints should be made about this kind of practice, but it has to be done
in a manner that will not turn away studio people.

The bottom line is this....

In order to keep the studios interested in consumer feedback, we need
to offer them a venue where criticism is expressed in a polite and
constructive manner. To accomplish such we are very active in
moderating discussions here and providing opinions that may be
deemed as constructive to the studios, as a method of keeping things
balanced. Without such balance, the studios will pawn us off.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I don't think your impression has anything to do with the forum being "full" of unhappy people. It's simply because those who have complaints are the ones who post. It's like the news: Why would a newscaster bother to say "no planes crashed today, they were on time, and everyone flying was happy"? Similarly, why would someone post "I'm perfectly happy with my player, my system is set up perfectly, and I have no issues with the disc I just bought"? There simply is very little motivation to do that. The motivated people are the unhappy ones.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Excellent post. This should be "sticky".


This is the main point. "Dissatisfaction" is often normal (hell, even recommended), but "hyperbole" is not what we need... Sadly, I´ve seen at least as much "hyperbole" than "dissatisfaction" lately in e.g. this forum. It´s probably worse in some others (by reading some of them, it´s)..


Sad thing. Sign, that it´s getting a bit out of hand? Not sure..

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Hyperbolic complaints aren't good, but neither are "what are you complaining about, this release looks wonderful to me" posts. I've seen a number of those.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

That, right there. Ron has perfectly captured the problem here (and elsewhere). We have at least one member who vocally quit the forum because he couldn't he could get mean enough. Unsurprisingly, he's now on other forums where he can be as poisonous as he likes and is lashing out at those who disagree even slightly with him. We have several members here that feel that there's no limit to attacking the studios, because after all, they're just soulless corporations out to make a buck off us. Sadly, they don't realize that it's that very attitude that (as Ron has pointed out from, AFAIK, actual conversations with the studios) has become more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than an actual force for change. What makes it worse is that there are tons of good-looking titles that are coming out that aren't being complemented to the same extent (if at all), which in turn isn't telling the studios what we do like. As RobertR alludes to, the negative hyperbole is drowning out the most of the actual constructive conversations going on. And on top of that, what's truly frightening is that I feel that some people (here and elsewhere) feel that any positive reinforcement on a title that is even slightly flawed or less than perfect is unwarranted. In other words If it's short of the gold standard, it's sh*t, or at the least unworthy of praise. I'd love to ask those people how they expect the studios to know what they like if they refuse to say it...

Look, we all know that movie-making is a business, that's a given. But that doesn't give us free rein to crap all over the people involved. If Ron's statements are true, then we're achieving the exact opposite of our goals by going even more negative. Sadly, I don't think this trend will reverse or even slow down any time soon, if ever. In the meantime, I can hope that the "constructive criticism" crowd can be a little more strident than the "epithets and invective" crowd.
The ratio of the former to the latter is so large that I can't help but think some of them are just people tired of all the negativity who are trying to help out (and with good reason)

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

Interesting. Only "unhappy" people are motivated to post in the forums? You sometimes puzzle me, Robert.

Re: Studio People Don't or Rarely Read the Forums Anymore?

I agree that those can be frustrating (and I've been on the receiving end of a few). But they're not especially relevant in the current context, since they're not likely to alienate industry people. And like it or not, they do represent legitimate opinions (just not ones that I want to see prevail ).

M.