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Terminator 1 & 2

#451
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Jonathon, that's odd about the BD-Live language... my understanding was that they were ONLY creating the BD-Live feature in English... what language is it in? The problem shouldn't be on your end, because the BD-Live application is downloaded from the server and stored on your player; it should be in whatever language(s) the application was created for. As I understand it, the company that created the BD-Live prorgamming was Imagion in Germany. Their website is Imagion if that helps.

As for the region coding, that's a surprise to me that it covers C as well. Maybe Universal is hedging their bets to anticipate selling it to China and Russia without having to redo the disc... very interesting.

V
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#452
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Jonathon, that's odd about the BD-Live language... my understanding was that they were ONLY creating the BD-Live feature in English... what language is it in? The problem shouldn't be on your end, because the BD-Live application is downloaded from the server and stored on your player; it should be in whatever language(s) the application was created for. As I understand it, the company that created the BD-Live prorgamming was Imagion in Germany. Their website is Imagion if that helps.

As for the region coding, that's a surprise to me that it covers C as well. Maybe Universal is hedging their bets to anticipate selling it to China and Russia without having to redo the disc... very interesting.

V

Van,

It might have been German, but I'm not sure. I'll check it again when I get some time this week and let you know. The intro to the text/board deleted scenes are foreign, then the actual script excerpt is English. Weird really...

As for the region coding, the other option is that it might be a simple screw-up on the cover art! Unfortunately I'm not in a position to check, but I have a friend who has a copy and might be able to get him to test it out. I'll try and get that figured out this week.
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#453
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hi there, just connected again to the BDlive feature, it's now updated in english for the english folks, and the french section also features many things in french.
I just learned that James Cameron will shoot "The Dive" in 2007
More seriously, it's now up and working, with more contents to come for european buyers
www.dvdvision.fr
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#454
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thanks, David... note that the European BD-Live --which was slated to be in English, German and French-- is the same one that should be accessible in English only for the rest of the world, excluding the US. Jonathon, I think that they took the omitted script sections directly from the Kinowelt HD-DVD content, hence the German intros.

Hope this helps,

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#455
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

van. I sent you a pm.. hopefully you can answer.

Jacob

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#456
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hello Van,

Quote:
As for the region coding, that's a surprise to me that it covers C as well.

Some users from the Russian TotalDVD forum already imported the UK Skynet version. Unfortunately, the European release is region B only. The info on region C is wrong.
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#457
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Peter:

The European version is supposed to be Region B only, so that's correct. As you may know, there are THREE different actual versions of the T2 Skynet disc, as follows:

* Domestic (US/Canada) - released by Lionsgate on a "permanent" license from StudioCanal - Region A only
* European (UK/France/Germany) - released by Optimum/StudioCanal/Kinowelt - Region B only (note that optimum and Kinowelt are all divisions of StudioCanal, and they also cover French Belgium)
* International (all other territories) - released by Universal Pictures International on a license from StudioCanal - Region A and B only

Interestingly, the Australian territory is covered by Universal, not StudioCanal, so they don't get the European disc per se... which is why they may have Region C on theirs. Specifically, the Universal disc covers Australia, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands (including Dutch Belgium), Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland on the Region B side, and then also México and Brazil on the Region A side. This multi-region weirdness is due to putting all of Universal's territories on one disc. Note that Japan, China and Russia are not technically covered by this Skynet release, and that Japan may likely have a localized release of the Skynet Edition either later this year or earlier next year, since they just did their Geneon version six months ago.

Hope this helps,

V
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#458
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Okay, to answer Dave H's question with what I promised:

Let's start with some history...

Note that T2 was shot in Super-35, which means it used a full-aperture 35mm film frame (with image exposed full-width, sprockets-to-sprockets, rather than losing over 10% of the image width to a soundtrack area as in the Academy aperture). However, because it's composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio, it's only using the center 57% of the available negative area for active, composed picture. The rest is available for recomposition in postproduction or when doing 4x3 video transfers (which are largely obsolete these days due to HD). This would lead to the obvious charge of a grainier picture than films not shot in this format, but while this charge is mathematically true, the quality of the image all depends on how good your filmmakers are --particularly the DP, which in this case was the excellent Adam Greenberg-- and T2 looked pretty damn good on film. So let's start there.

The T2 master was originally transferred in 2003 from a Super-35 IP. Prior to colorist Mark Nakamine performing the transfer at IVC, Lightstorm screened their preferred 35mm print of the film in the THX-certified screening room at the Lightstorm offices in Santa Monica. This completed transfer was then screened for and approved by Jim Cameron. This transfer master was comprised of the Theatrical Version (in seven 20-minute reels) plus a few more separate, compiled reels of Special Edition scenes IP.

In order to take advantage of the full vertical "negative area" of the 1.78 HD format, the film (which was composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio) was transferred FULL-HEIGHT to a D5 4:2:2 HD master; that is, the film image that would normally take up the center 1920x816 portion of the 1920x1080 frame was stretched vertically to fill the full 1920x1080 frame, thus maximizing the use of the HD storage format. In normal usage, the film would have been just transferred in its original aspect ratio that would fit horizontally into the HD frame, with black letterboxing above and below. Doing a full-height transfer means that there are 1080 lines of resolution used in storing the image, rather than just 816 lines with the rest being black letterboxing. So the good news is that there is more image resolution; the bad news is that it means that the master has to be reformatted to the normal letterboxed 2.35 aspect ratio whenever it needs to be used. You cannot use the original transfer master directly. Fortunately, because it is digital and theoretically has no generational loss (other than from the reformat scaling itself), the image quality should not deteriorate significantly when creating a compression master.

From this 24psF full-height transfer master, comprised of 4 tapes (3 for the original Theatrical Version, plus 1 for the SE/ESE scenes), I created an additional pair of full-height masters: a 3-tape edited master of the Special Edition, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes edited master which consisted of the "T-1000 Searching John's Room" and "Future Coda" ending. These edited masters were digitally edited from the original Theatrical and SE Scenes transfer masters, so there was no generational loss. So now we have a total of seven final D5 tapes: a 3-part Theatrical master, a 3-part SE master, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes master, which are the current archival video masters for the film. All home video releases from the past six years were created from reformatted dubs/clones of these approved masters.

Also note that these masters have what is called SEGMENTED timecode, which means that the timecode on the tape is only continuous on each individual tape. So the first tape has Hour 1 timecode (the feature starts at 1:00:00:00) and comprises film reels 1-3, the second tape starts at Hour 2, etc. The significance here is that the timecodes on the tapes are NOT continuous throughout the whole film, since the reels 1-3 combined never add up to exactly 1 hour... it will usually be shorter (which means a gap in timecode when you string the film together) but may also be slightly longer than one hour (meaning there will be DUPLICATE timecode in that area). This will get addressed when the compression masters are made.

It's at this point where we did the manual dirt cleanup to the feature masters at Fotokem in late 2008. This process entailed doing a detailed QC list of dirt/scratch/hairs/watermarks along with timecodes for exactly where they are. The film then gets copied from the already-digital D5 tapes into a server, and an artist manually goes to each timecode on the list and paints out the offending items. For T2, at my request, they focused specifically on obvious artifacts like hair and scratches, and did NOT do any kind of automated grain removal or dirt removal. These processes do exist and are often used --like the "Dust and Scratches" filter in Photoshop-- but they are somewhat indiscriminate, since fine detail or grain may be mistaken by the system for dirt or scratches... which is why I specifically asked them not to use such tools on the T2 master, what with all of the sparks and explosion debris, etc. So after this labor is done, the feature is laid back out to a new set of D5 tapes, and we did some spot-checking by going to various spots in the master that were listed on the timecode dirt list and toggling between the before-cleanup and after-cleanup versions to make sure the work was done. This also made it possible for us to insure that no automated grain remove or noticeable noise reduction was done to the image, since this would show up when toggling. It's an asymptotic process in that once you get rid of the large dirt, the medium dirt starts standing out, and then when you get rid of the medium dirt, the small dirt is more noticeable, etc. We even went back and did some more manual work to certain areas for that very reason. Obviously, this gets pretty subjective, but what you do is the most you can do with the budget and time allotted.

Once the manual dirt work was completed on these these full-height masters, a set of continuous-timecode, reformatted compression masters are made for DVD and Blu-ray use. This means that the full-height image is run through a high-quality scaler to squeeze it vertically to the correct letterboxed aspect ratio, and the laid back onto a new HD D5 tape with the letterboxing. At the same time, a new timecode track is added so that the film has continuous timecode from start to finish, which is very important if you're synching things like PiP and text data to the feature. In some cases, if a movie is not too long, it can be laid off onto a single longplay D5 master (not the case with all of T2, of course). In our case, we had a single longplay Theatrical master, a two-part longplay SE master, and a short ESE/Omitteds master. These are the D5s that went to the authoring facility (in the case of the Skynet Edition, it was Blink Digital Studios in Burbank) for encoding.

The original plan was to use the AVC codec, but a lot of factors weighed in on this... one of which was the fact that in Blu-ray, in order to do Picture-in-Picture, both the primary (feature) video stream and the secondary (PiP) video stream need to be encoded using the same codec. Also, the amount of features we were trying to put on this single disc was a LOT --seamless branching of three versions, all of the audio tracks, etc. -- and most of it had to be in sync with the film, which means we could not put it off on a separate disc, even if the studio had agreed to do a second disc. Here's what Drew Hunstman, Senior Director of Tech Ops at Blink Digital where we did the authoring and compression, had to say about the codec issue:

"Our workflow is a pretty typical one for BD: capture a source file in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in V210 codec via Kona3 cards, using a slight NR at this point, if necessary; dither the color space into the appropriate YUV format; make a few encode tests based on calculated bit rates, adjust filters, tweak specific scenes as needed and encode; lather, rinse, and repeat until the final encode looks as good as possible based on client recommendations and bit rate usage calculations.

"The VC-1 choice was based on how the PiP looked in AVC, which was poor and in VC-1 which look far better. If we had used the AVC, to get a passable look for the PiP, the feature bitrate would have been a few points lower. As you know it is a balancing act making all the parts and pieces look the best possible while optimizing bit rates and still fitting them all in the BD box."

One thing I noticed about the comments regarding the picture quality on the forum was that most of the negative comments came first from the UK, where the European disc was being reviewed. The later comments that were a lot more positive seem to come when the US Domestic version was reviewed. This makes sense in the light of the fact that the International versions had a lower feature compression rate than the domestic, based on the greater number of languages that had to be accommodated on the international versions. Here's Drew's take on the disparity between the domestic and international encodes:

"The source, while good, was a D5 <4:2:2> not HDSR <4:4:4>, which a great many BD disks have for source material and can be superior in quality. Some discs like Ratatouille were processed directly from DPX files and so the source quality is even better than an HDSR. The European encode and the Domestic encode used the same source files captured from tape, the same pre-filtering and a moderate NR applied, but the 5 Mbps is making the greatest difference. Keep in mind that the amount of content on either disk kept the bit rate lower than many other discs on the market and the Euro was lower still.

"There is some NR applied at the capture point and some applied at the encode point. This is to strike a balance between the amount of grain that the encoder has to deal while maintaining picture integrity. We have found, as many other have, if we slightly reduce grain at the capture, then we need FAR less at encode point. And we do use the Digital Vision NR for some of this.

"In short, the picture differential between the Euro and Domestic is only about 5Mbps, however with the low bit rates due to the amount of content this makes a greater difference.
If the overall bit rates were higher and we had the same 5Mb differential the picture would vary somewhat less. Figure that the lower the bit rate, the greater percentage of the picture quality 5Mbs represents. It is about a 6% drop…using present settings. If the overalls were higher, the 5Mbs would be a less percentage drop in quality between the two."

Okay, so as I understand it, this means that a certain amount of digital noise reduction was applied during the precompression process --not as a creative decision, but in order to hit the target bitrates, which were determined by how much material the studio wanted to include on the disc. We specifically had the feature encoded twice at different rates to best accommodate the differeing amounts of content for the Domestic and International versions. Given that, I think we did a pretty good job. ;-)

The Geneon disc, which was made from the same transfer master (but did not have the added manual dirt fixes as the Skynet Edition), was able to be encoded in AVC and at a higher bitrate because it did not have to include multiple versions of the film or as many languages on a single disc, and also did not have PiP or other such features. The inclusion of the standard-def featurettes in the Geneon versions still takes up a lot less room than including branched HD footage and PiP and BD-Live and all of the stuff that's on the Skynet Edition, so the Geneon version was able to do a higher bitrate. The rule of thumb for compression is pretty straightforward: the more detail you want to preserve, the higher the bitrate has to be. The challenge --and the art-- of compression is to find the best balance, where you get the maximum quality in the minimum amount of space. This all comes down to how much content is going to be included on the disc. And as I've noted before, the studios try to balance how much they put on the disc in terms of new features (and the costs for doing so) against the sales projections of how many more or less they will sell if those additional features are not included. And most indicators --like the sales of SuperBit DVDs-- show that folks will choose feature-laden discs over movie-only discs even if they are technically at a higher bitrate.

Can we do better in the future? Most likely. The digital technology gets better and more efficient as time goes on, and hopefully next time the film will be retransferred to a 4:4:4 HDcamSR, or better yet, scanned at 2K from the original neg and restored digitally. And if we're lucky, we'll be able to do more than one disc and keep the feature at a higher bitrate while not sacrificing other features. If we're REALLY lucky, we'll have those multilayer discs with hundreds of gigabytes of storage on a single discs and no one will have excuses not to have the best quality encodes possible...

Does this make the Skynet Edition worth your purchase? Only you can decide that for yourselves. All I can do is try my best (when given the opportunity) to create compelling content to complement the film and to try to make sure the film looks and sounds as best it can within the parameters of the space available.

So there you have it... hope this answers some questions!

V
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#459
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thanks for taking the time to give us a very in depth and detailed answer, Van!
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#460
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van, thank you for all the work you did and detailing all of the steps. I, myself, learned quite a bit about the process and find it most intriguing!
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#461
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thank you for the information! It is of course a pity that Europe has to a) cope with a lower bitrate and b) cannot import the Region A release, given that it has superior picture. But this is company politics...
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#462
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

A very informitive post van, why use a super-35 print and not a 70mm blow up ?

DVDmike007
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#463
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Europe .... b) cannot import the Region A release
Studios can't, but individuals can.


Van,

Thanks for an excellent and highly informative exposé of the work done on this movie.
Great read!


Cees
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#464
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thanks for the update, Van! Lots of good info on the behind-the-scenes stuff in there.
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#465
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Very informative post Van. I just have one more question if you may on the BD-Live aspect of things. I pre-ordered the German limited edition skynet edition. I have an LG BH 200 player which is supposedly going to be BD-Live enabled next month but are you saying that as I am in the US I will not be able to access the BD-Live content from the German servers? (The LG BH 200 players allow for switching back and forth between blu ray regions as needed). Thanks.
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#466
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wadkins
A very informitive post van, why use a super-35 print and not a 70mm blow up ?

My guess, since I can't speak for Van (obviously)... when you're creating a digital master, you want to make the transfer from an element as close to the original source as possible. The 70mm blow-up would be a few generations removed, and thus would not be as high quality an element to make a transfer from. It would be the difference between transferring from an IP (the Super 35mm) and from a release print (a 70mm blow-up). Additionally, there aren't nearly as many facilities that can transfer 70mm, which is why we've seen a bunch of DVDs of 70mm films that were sourced from 35mm reduction prints. The Super-35 IP they would have used is probably the closest they can get to the original source without going back to the original negative.
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#467
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Josh is pretty much spot-on here. If your original was shot on 35mm, your best transfer source would be the original negative, or an IP thereof... EXCEPT if you a have a 65mm (which is 70mm without the soundtrack) IP that is directly off the original neg. In this case, you would be the same generation as a 35mm IP, but have the full resolution of the 65mm neg area to preserve your original image (in the same way that making a DigiBeta dub of a 3/4" tape will be better than making a 3/4" dub of that same tape... you obviously don't gain any quality, but you don't LOSE what's there). This actually may have been the problem with Aliens... the film was shot in 35mm spherical 1.85 (well, actually 1.66 since it was shot in England, but composed for and projected in 1.85), but 65mm IP blowups were made off the original neg, as were 35mm IPs for normal release. If they are of the same generation, and assuming that the original neg was not grainy in the first place, the 65mm IP would be a less grainy a source to transfer from for video than a 35mm IP. All of the complaints about the graininess of the Aliens transfers in the early 90s may have been due to a grainy IP, as opposed to it being grainy in the source as we had thought. This theory came up when there was a recent 70mm screening of Aliens and Jim remarked that it was less grainy than he recalled. But before everyone starts clamoring for a 65mm transfer of Aliens, please note that as Josh said, there are very few state-of-the-art facilities for doing 65mm film transfers... at this point in the technology it may be better to do a 2K or 4K film scan off the original negative and do a digital restoration. Guess folks should talk to my esteemed colleague Charlie de Lauzirika about that, since he's dealing with the Alien Quadrilogy for Blu-ray...

V
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#468
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thanks Van and Josh for the info

DVDmike007
http://www.youtube.com/user/dvdmike007

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#469
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
"Our workflow is a pretty typical one for BD: capture a source file in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in V210 codec via Kona3 cards, using a slight NR at this point, if necessary; dither the color space into the appropriate YUV format; make a few encode tests based on calculated bit rates, adjust filters, tweak specific scenes as needed and encode; lather, rinse, and repeat until the final encode looks as good as possible based on client recommendations and bit rate usage calculations.
...
"There is some NR applied at the capture point and some applied at the encode point
QED.
Thanks for sharing and typing all this in. Must have taken a long time.
Looking at the stills I had no doubt that DNR was applied. All other explanations did not really make (technical) sense given the look of the alternative discs on the market and some general knowledge about film, compression technology, digital filters and experience with the look of stills from HD transfers.
What worries me immensely here is that as long as compression is not strictly understood as the job to faithfully reproduce the given source (compress it as visually lossless as possible when watched at 24fps) without altering the look of the source all the effort to clean up by hand and avoid global filters with their side effects is in vain for the final product (the Blu Ray) because the result will not reach the final product. Compression becomes then just another processing stage that modifies the look of the film, like color grading before it, a stage with vast potential to do damage.
Once one decides though that compression is not there to modify the look of the source, naturally the whole planning needs to be done backwards. The necessary bit rates are decided in advance with tests, the rest (how many supplements, how many discs, BD25, BD50, AVC, VC-1...) follows from there, not the other way around. If financial reasons prevent it then one has to wonder why the money was spent for the other stages. There is no use for superior quality in the master when the Blu Ray can't show it. Where and when are we supposed to see it? On TV? Na. Digital cinema screenings? Unlikely. On the double dip? I mean quintuple dip? :-)
The tight coupling of encoders with noise filters and sharpening filters is an invitation to modify the look of what's encoded and I consider it conceptually wrong and dangerous if it's not strictly supervised and for the most part turned off.
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#470
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Among other things, there's the question of what should be the standard for judging an accurate transfer. At least for a pre-DI film, that would arguably be an answer print, not an interpositive (or "IP"). But let's put that aside.
EK print is fine with me. It does not affect my point which refers to the film(ic) texture.
Quote:
I'm not making any claims about the Skynet edition. You are.
The claim is I can't possibly know what I'm talking about because I have not seen the IP (or an EK print). Which in this context is basically the same as saying that on principle one can not say whether a HD transfer shows the original texture of the film element it came from or has been digitally manipulated away from it. One must look at the film element first. That is not so.
We have now confirmation that DNR was applied, e.g. what I said all along. I rest my case.
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#471
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
The claim is I can't possibly know what I'm talking about because I have not seen the IP (or an EK print).
No one has made any such claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
I rest my case.
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#472
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Filmmakers, if they are lucky, try to present their films as they want to see it, and let the viewer decide if it works for them or not, both on a visual and narrative level. A "definitive" version is relative to the time and the people in control at the time, and eyes change as easily as technology does. And there can always be differences of opinion: a filmmaker may tweak the color in the DI or in the video transfer, while the DP might prefer it to be color-timed differently. Even sharpness can be a matter of taste or opinion; some folks like their images sharpened or cleaned up, while others see only loss of detail and edge enhancement in the result. The most fascinating thing to me is how you can take the same master transfer and put it through different (or even the same) compression at different facilities using different compressionists and equipment, and get wildly varying results over the years.
Absolutely. This is on one hand the result of available technology and on the other of the people using that technology.
It is indeed educating to take out (old) DVDs or LDs or, if one dares, VHS tapes, and watch them as some of us watch now BDs, on a home cinema screen from a 1080p projector. And getting embarrassed about the fact that what we once called reference quality now looks decidedly mediocre if not outright awful. The reference (film prints) has not changed much but how close we can come at home has tremendously.
In general it's not much use discussing what looks good or bad. That's so subjective. The relevant question is: What is accurate? What is not only high definition but also high fidelity? The internal struggles to define what is accurate is an interesting subject, but in the end from that struggle comes a finished master element, a film element or a digital element or both.
Reproducing that element on Blu Ray as faithfully as possible should be the ultimate goal, because Blu Ray is the first consumer video format that actually can reproduce that element to a large degree, not perfectly, sometimes not even that close, but far closer than anything else we had before. So let's use that great opportunity.
Issues like DNR or no DNR, EE or no EE, or how much, have at least in theory an easy answer. If it's accurate for reproducing the master then use it. If it's not then don't use it. If it's only there to appease or fool part of the customers, then it should not be there. If it's only there to save some bucks, please don't use it and talk once more to the accountants. If it's there to optimise for small screens it should not be there. Blu Ray is a medium for all screen sizes, especially for (very) large ones, where it is the only medium we have. So make it sing there first. When it sings there it will sing anywhere. But not the other way around. Don't short change a medium that can look almost as good as 1080p studio masters.
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#473
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
No one has made any such claim.
You said:
Quote:
Yes, indeed. Informative about you and the credibility of your assertions ("not what the IP looks like" -- which you don't know, because you've never seen it).
What if anything does this mean if not that because I have not seen the IP I'm not credible when I diagnose DNR and therefore say (since there is no DNR on the IP) that the IP does not look like the BD? If there is no such suggested conclusion the fact that I have not seen it would be irrelevant. How could it be informative then?
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#474
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Great stuff, thanks Van.
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#475
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

However, what I wonder about is:

If it was unavoidable to compress the European picture more to suit for more audio tracks - why are there still 4 GB of free space left on the European BD?
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#476
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Its good to know that I am not the only one imagining it
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#477
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHutt
If it was unavoidable to compress the European picture more to suit for more audio tracks - why are there still 4 GB of free space left on the European BD?

My guess would be that it's because of the way compression works. You adjust the bit rate you're encoding at for the space you have, and it does it's thing, but there are plenty of instances where you could up the bit rate in certain portions of the film with no discernible effect. For instance, on a static shot where nothing is moving, the bit rate would be relatively low... you could up that for that shot, but it would still look exactly the same.

In other words, there probably wasn't enough space left on the disc to encode it at a higher bitrate where there would be any noticeable difference. If there's 4GB left out of 50GB, that means the disc is more than 90% full, so it probably is as good as it could be given the extra audio tracks they decided to include.

I wonder if BD-Live might one day make it possible for studios to have additional audio tracks available for download? Personally, I think it's just silly to waste space on dubbed tracks. Of course, I'm not taking into account people's preferences, etc., but when I watch a movie that's not in English, I'll always go for English subtitles with the original audio; if a dub is all that's available, I'm not interested. But recognizing that there is an audience for those tracks, I'd love to kick them off the disc to save space, but make them available as a download for anyone who absolutely must have them.

(For that matter, I'm not a big fan of redundant audio tracks... including a mono mix and a surround mix on the same disc is one thing... including the exact same surround mix multiple times on the disc using different codecs but with the exact same source, usually just a waste. Somewhere in this thread I think someone put their dream edition of T2 as having both Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and PCM tracks -- why??? Loseless audio is loseless audio is loseless audio.)
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#478
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Dan, if you buy the German edition, then you will only be connecting to the European BD-Live content. If you have the US Domestic version, you will only be accessing the US content. It does not matter what the region your player is set to or where you are per se.

Peter and Josh, I'm always bummed to hear when there's ANY room left on a disc I work on... but I've also run into cases where filling it to the brim has caused serious issues with the playability of the disc. Not sure why, but it sucks not having the full space to use. And in the case of T2, I know that some of the tracks were being messed with all the way to the end of authoring, and sometimes a track may be dropped or altered and thus theoretically open up some additional space on the disc, but sometimes this happens at a point in the process (like near the end) where you can't go back and then re-encode the feature image without it being a huge deal and cost.

Josh, regarding downloadable audio tracks... it's a good idea, but is predicated on the hope that everyone has BD-Live, which they don't yet. But it's something that will likely happen more often in the future as digital downloading becomes more prevalent and becomes the standard (rather than an option) for the BD format. As for redundant audio tracks, it's worth doing if there's a specific reason... for T1, I'd lobby to have the original mono mix in addition to the 5.1 remix. And every time we choose DTS-HD Master Audio over Dolby TrueHD (or vice versa), someone complains... it's hilarious. But with the current format, there's not enough space to include everything... the bit-budget juggling act on BD is already ridiculous; if you want to include lossless audio, you have to encode the audio FIRST and then do your picture encode to accommodate the audio! It's bass-ackwards, IMHO. ;-)

Michel, no one sets out to do a bad disc, and no one I like to work with tries to fool the consumer. The sad fact of the matter is that the majority of consumers are not really able to discern the quality levels that we tend to discuss on this forum, not because they are not educated but because the most important thing to them (and frankly should be to us) is STORYTELLING. This is one reason why YouTube is more popular than Blu-ray, even though the quality sucks in comparison. This is why iTunes and DVD sell more content than Blu-ray does. Content trumps quality. If you ask most people if they would rather have a disc with more content and slightly lower quality image versus just a movie but with the best picture ever, they'd go for the former. This is in no way an excuse for subpar encoding or transfers, but it does reflect the reality of the priorities.

The goal of this forum IMHO is to promote the idea that even as we have to make those decisions of content versus quality, we should always strive to make it the best we can. We need to keep the idea that there are ideals to shoot for, many of which you've stated succinctly, and not to compromise more than necessary. We should never allow the studios to get to the point of being lazy, where they think "we never have to make the effort to get it to look better than an iTunes download". But at the same time, it's not to be dogmatic about it... if you really held to intractable beliefs, you'd never watch a movie except on film in a perfect theatre and you'd never see the forest for the trees. Or you'd never enjoy a good yarn.

Frankly, I'm at a disadvantage on this forum in that I seldom have any say or control over the sound and picture quality of the projects I work on; I'm a content guy. And I am well aware that the more cool stuff I try to include on a disc, the lower the quality of the feature presentation has to be (at least mathematically) to accommodate it. So theoretically, the folks on this forum should dislike my very existence because my work detracts from the quality presentation many folks on this forum are striving for. But I like to think that there are more measures of quality than just how something looks and sounds. If getting background info or added content helps increase the enjoyment of the film, that should count for something. So I'm here because I believe in and respect what the members of this forum are trying to do and say... and hope that what we attempt on these discs can earn reciprocation.

V
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#479
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thanks, Van, for the informative answer! I already thought about something like this, but wanted to be sure.
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#480
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Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
As for redundant audio tracks, it's worth doing if there's a specific reason... for T1, I'd lobby to have the original mono mix in addition to the 5.1 remix. And every time we choose DTS-HD Master Audio over Dolby TrueHD (or vice versa), someone complains... it's hilarious. But with the current format, there's not enough space to include everything... the bit-budget juggling act on BD is already ridiculous; if you want to include lossless audio, you have to encode the audio FIRST and then do your picture encode to accommodate the audio! It's bass-ackwards, IMHO. ;-)

For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider having the original mono mix and a 5.1 remix to be redundant. What I do consider redundant (and I'm not saying you've done this, because to the best of my knowledge you haven't) is when you get multiple versions of the exact same audio track, just with different codecs, like including both a Dolby and a DTS 5.1 of the same track -- kinda pointless... but I agree, the complaints are hilarious. (Totally off-topic, but I just got one of the funniest complaints I've had recently... someone tried to claim a DVD I worked on was defective, because the "next time on..." preview at the end of the show had an American narrator, while the rest of the show had been British. The guy didn't just want a refund, he demanded that we redo the entire DVD set. Needless to say, that ain't happening.)

Yeah, I recently did my first Blu-ray project and discovered that with the lossless audio as well. There's always something bass-ackwards in this process, isn't there, no matter how what the technology of the day is!
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