Terminator 1 & 2

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

well, time travelling always has it's shares of plotholes. by that logic, NOTHING in Back to the Future makes sense, but that's a different topic altogether.

Though, I will say this:

I was under the impression that the reason Skynet sent Terminators back through time to eliminate Sarah is because all the historic data got lost in the war. Sarah's the only known family of John Connor, so eliminating her, eliminates him essentially.

it's all pretty silly when you think about it, because if the Skynet future is TIMELINE A then why try altering TIMELINE B? killing John Connor would have no effect in the timeline where he already exists. it's not like he would just disappear into thin air, so yeah...the whole concept is ridiculous in a way...

the whole idea of changing the past is stupid, because we can only change the past of that particular timeline, nothing in our timeline will change. in theory anyway.

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^ I don't mind your last bit but there's a strict "no political talk" rule here so you may want to delete it.

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my apologies, it was intended more as a tongue-in-cheek thing than an insult, but I see why it would be inappropriate. edited.

One thing that I've always thought about is...

Skynet's supposed to know alot about humans, and how to hurt us best, i.e. the T-800's "I have detailed files on human anatomy" to Sarah Connor.

why not just create a disease which would wipe all humans out? like a deadly virus of some kind. Machines would clearly be immune against it. I don't know, it just seems silly to go through all the time travelling when they can just create a viral epidemic. but then, I suppose, we'd have no movie

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but....has ANYONE ever come up with a satisfactory explanation of how the T-1000 and T-X can travel through time when they're not surrounded by living tissue? Did Skynet somehow figure out how to make liquid metal that is actually alive in the biological sense, aura and all? That always seemed like a huge cop-out to me, just to have a cooler terminator in the sequel.

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The T-1000 mimics things well enough that it 'fools' the time travel device into reading it as living tissue.

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It's a clever solution. But Arnie says the T-1000 can't turn into complex machines like bombs or guns, but he can turn into something that's close enough to a human body to fool the time travel device?
But then again, the Endoskeletons can fool the device too, so it's probably the correct answer.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Just a late comment about T3. My favorite part of the film -- and it may be the only part of the film I liked -- was the opening shot of the skulls underwater. That was fantastic. It honored the bleached skulls of T1 and T2, and added the water twist to it.

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Actually, we did entertain the notion of having the cop in the alley find what looked like a human skin that had been shed like a snake, right before the T-1000 attacks him... but we kind of felt that would really confuse folks, as well as give away the gag. Plus, it was too much like "Alien"...

V

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I don't mind this, I agree the T-1000 skin is real enough to fool the machine too...

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The T-1000 getting through time without any living tissue is something that always niggled me.

It doesn't dent my enjoyment of the movie one little bit (the T-800 attempting to smile does that ) but it's one of those little details that just doesn't add up.

Van, what's your favourite cut of T2? I prefer the theatrical edition meself.

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I'm split between the Theatrical and SE versions... I prefer the TH for pacing, but I do miss the chip removal scene from the SE.

V

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I love how the SE shows the T-1000 malfunctioning after the freeze.

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For some reason, I think those are just the coolest shots too. If I had to pick one SE element that I wish was in the theatrical cut, it would be that.

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One question Van,

did you HAVE TO remove the hidden feature from the T2 Ultimate Edition, which enables one to watch the film with the alternate ending? Out of consideration for T3?

It's a feature I REALLY miss on the Extreme Edition, for obvious reasons.

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same here... it was the one scene i scratched my head and asked myself why it was left out.

i also like the shot from the t.c. when the police arrives at cyberdine more the one in extended version. it's just a little change, but it's more then enough to make it feel a bit out of place.

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Or out of pace. I agree with you. However, there are many things in the SE I like, anything with the T-1000 is great, as is the chip removal scene, which helps to explain a lot of the T-800 behavior later on. I love the Reese dream too.
I don't like much however the smiling scene at the station, and I can see why it was cut out from the SE, other than pacing reasons. As the raging waters scene, thought it's well acted, it seems out of place even in the SE.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Oliver, we only dropped the ESE version from T2 Extreme for disc space and programming complexity reasons... there was no consideration for T3 at all, since it's a different studio. Also, I knew that the Ultimate T2 DVD was still available, so the ESE wasn't lost.

What I've been finding is that creating any single special feature is doable; where it gets challenging is when you want to do a bunch of special features that are interactive with the film all at once; for instance, seamless branching of the different versions requires three sets of chapter menus, as well as having to EDIT the commentaries to accommodate the branching of the film versions so there are no weird mid-sentence cutoffs, and/or to decide if a bonus feature will be available for ALL versions or if it will be available and optimized for only ONE version (which means having to program it not to allow that option when a different version of the film is selected). And then if you add a programming-heavy feature like T2X's Interactive Mode to the mix, it gets even more complex... which is one of the reasons the Interactive Mode is ONLY for the SE version.

My goal with the 2003 T2X was to make it a companion disc to the 2000 UT2 DVD, not a replacement for it; New Line did this perfectly with the separate 2-disc theatrical and 4-disc extended versions for each of the LOTR films... it's really a 6-disc set with little overlap. And while we're trying to do the same with the new Blu-ray, it's a challenge to try to find that balance between trying to include everything from previous releases versus audio/picture quality versus trying new features that are to give people a reason to try Blu-ray over regular DVD. And yes, while you can put a lot of the existing SD bonus features onto a second disc (hence the Limited Edition Skynet set with the uT2 and T2X discs included), any of the special features that have to interact with the film itself --like the commentaries, Interactive Mode, Picture-in-Picture, trivia tracks, and so on-- have to live on the same disc with the movie, so there are disc space decisions to be made. We need a bigger boat... already! ;-)

V

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hello Van,

thanks for your elaborate answer! Just in case: please don't take my previous question as criticism.

I know that lot of work has been involved in the making of the two editions. I remember when I first watched the T2UE in 2000 (I just HAD TO import it from the US after switching my DVD player to codefree, using a PALM borrowed from a neighbor), I was just blown away by the huge volume of supplementals and the menu design, which I still consider one of the very best ever created for the DVD format.

It's DVD's like this which really defined what the format could do, contributing a lot to its success.


For me, your intentions were quite clear, because I always considered T2X as an upgrade to the T2UE, mainly due to the superior video transfer and the audio commentary.

I was just a tiny little bit disappointed that this particular hidden feature was removed, because it became my favourite way of watching T2. I always thought it was due to the then upcoming release of T3.

Again Van, thanks for your hard work on those editions. Especially the 720p transfer on the second disc was another groundbreaking feature at the time, though I never bothered to mess with the DRM in order to play it at home.

Plus: you did a great job in morphing the missing frames between the transition of the theatrical and extended scenes of both Sarah's dialogue with Enrique and the T1000 grabbing the rail.


I think the biggest reason to upgrade from DVD is obviously the picture quality. A "problem" concerning the upcoming Blu Ray release probably is that you did a much too good job on the previous DVD's.

I mean, what major aspects of the production haven't already been covered in the extras of both DVD versions? The only cool gimmick I could think of would be the complete T2-3D feature.


It's always the same, we get spoiled much too quick.

Have a nice day,

Oliver.

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which was nothing new supplement wise if you have the laserdisc limited edition


these two scenes where also included on the ld l.e. not within the movie but as deleted scenes.

i still have this ld in high regards for what was presented.

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Hi to all!

I'm new to the forums and from Germany, so please forgive me for not articulating in perfect English and if I'm asking something that has already been asked before.

I'm a really huge T2-fan; after seeing the film numerous times in theaters, I bought it six times until now in Home Video Format: 2 x VHS, German Ultimate DVD Edition (2 Discs, Special Edition), US Extreme Edition (2 DVDs), Lionsgate Blu-ray (Theatrical Cut), German Ultimate HD-DVD (Special Edition).
T2 is my favourite film of all time and the Ultimate Edition and Extreme edition companion disc(s) are also my favourite DVD sets.
Therefore I'm truly excited in anticipation of the new Blu-ray edition.

@Van:

You said previously that authoring a disc is always a compromise regarding video, audio and Bonus Features, and that a Studio is keen on encoding the video only once just to reduce costs.
If I understand correctly, the new Blu-ray editions for the US, UK and Germany are based on the same video, audio and Bonus materials.
Can you verify now, that all three discs have the same video and audio (English) quality?
Or will there be different video encodings, meaning that the US release will look better due to less audio tracks?
If this is the case, will the US and the UK editions look/be the same (except for the Region-Code)?

I'm asking, because my Blu-ray player is set to Region-Code B, so unfortunately buying the US edition is not an option, as this seems to be fixed to Region A.
In general I prefer a disc with (additional) German audio. Although personally I always watch the film in English, I have to select the German track when watching with family or friends.
But if you say that the video/audio quality of the US or UK release is significantly better than the German one, I will buy the best release available and update my player to Region-Free if necessary, but this will be expensive (approx. 200 EUR).

Many thanks in advance for your help and your great work on my favourite film!

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

All this talk about the different versions of T2 made me go back and re-watch the deleted scenes from the first film. I would definitely love an extended cut for this as well. They seem to be in good shape and are pretty solid scenes. That's really my only request for Terminator 1 Blu Ray (and hopefully a fantastic Lowry print). I think the Skynet edition for T2 has everything I would want for that movie except the complete 3D show, but I understand why it can't be included.

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The hidden feature i hated was the hitting a zillion remote buttons to get the super duper edtion to play. Was that T2 UE? With my disablility it was a royal pain to push all those buttons.

I always hoped the Blu-ray editions would be the do all end all final editions. Not a continuation of the DVD which I sold last year.

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I agree completely.

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Man, that's just my line of thinking. The chip removal scene is soooo good - not to mention a superbly staged bit of film-making - but I refuse to be subjected to the rest of the additions for that one scene, so it's the theatrical all the way.

(I feel the same about Aliens, as I love the sentry guns but I just don't dig the rest of it.)

As for T1, it's perfect as it is. I can't stand that scene of Reese blubbing. Leave it alone!

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No offense taken, Oliver... but on the subject of image/sound quality being the primary reason to upgrade from DVD to Blu-ray, the success or failure of BD currently does not rest on that... it rests on all of the other stuff on the disc to bring "interactive" or new experiences to the consumer. While we here in the HTF take it as gospel that feature presentation quality comes first --and the studios believe this as well-- the sad fact of the matter is that no one nowadays is upgrading from DVD to BD solely on better quality... especially in this economy. There have to be other merits or features to justify the much greater cost. The general public prefers the convenience of YouTube and the interactivity they get from the web to better image quality that they simply can't really appreciate on the TVs they have. So in order to sell BD as a format, its proponents are having to push the other potential capabilities of the format, like interactivity and net connectivity. All of this by necessity takes away from the quality of the feature presentation if it is on the same disc. And most of the interactive stuff DOES have to be on the same disc as the feature... hence the dilemma of finding a balance.

I think we'd all like to see movies be presented on multiple discs, with one disc entirely devoted to the feature only with the best audio and picture quality, and then the film again on a separate disc at a slightly lower quality but with all of the interactive features... but from an economic standpoint, that's not going to happen. The good news is that HTF-minded folks are a rare and discerning breed... less than half a percent of the general population. The bad news is that this very small percentage means the direct impact on BD sales is not enough to influence content creators and studios to make discs the way we want them. However, all is not lost.

As members of the HTF, it is your responsibility to leverage your knowledge and level of standards into a larger percentage of the population. I've always said that home theatre folks can't buy enough stuff to influence the economics alone, but they are the ones that newbies and the general public turn to for advice on what to get. Not through official channels like the forums, but through friends and family. We need to spread the notion that quality counts for something, and that people need to vote with their wallets on this... which means eschewing gear and discs that are not up to snuff. If studios and player manufacturers can clearly see a trend that they can't write off as something else, they will pay attention.

For our part within the studio system, there are a lot of us who do fight for quality presentation and compelling features, and that often costs more time and resources than they are willing to pay. It's easy to just pass it off and say the studios are too frickin' cheap to pay for quality... and while in some (okay, many) cases that is true, but it comes down to a matter of simple economics for them: will consumers be willing to pay $5-10 more per disc if we included this additional feature or an extra disc? How many disc sales will we lose as the price point goes up, and what can we do to maximize the return on our investment? In the final analysis, the studios and content creators want the same thing you want: the best value for the money spent. So how do we work together to make this optimal?

One way might be to have multiple tiers of discs, which may be the way of the future when digital downloads (or BD-on-demand disc burns) are a reality: a "home theatre" version with just the film at maximum bitrates, available for a slightly higher price than the "normal" version. But this still would have to make economic sense, both for HT folks and studios. Clearly, "SuperBit" didn't work economically on DVD... but you can't say they didn't try.

Just my two cents,

V

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Lars, I can't say that the video bitrate will be the same for US and UK, because the Region B disc will have English, French and German audio on it, which takes up a LOT more room than just the English on the US disc. It's always a tradeoff... the Region B disc has DTS-HD MA lossless for both 5.1 English and 7.1 German, so it's a pretty significant chunk of space, which leaves less for picture quality. The US version has slightly higher encoding rates for picture, because if we use the same picture encode for the US as for Region B, then we would end up with a lot of unused space on the US disc, which thus penalizes American consumers for no reason other than the cost of reencoding.

We've all tried hard to make the different discs consistent in content as much as possible, but we have to hew to the language parameters and international disc configurations laid down by Studio Canal (who owns the film). Some studios choose to optimize it by spending the money to create more disc versions, with fewer languages on each; others don't have the money to do that and combine languages whenever possible. The fact that the AACS copy protection licensing for BD is so stringent that you have to pay additional license fees for EVERY stamper made... even if it's just a fix to an existing one... makes it even more costly to do more disc versions.

So I wouldn't discount the German/UK/French version just because it may have a lower picture encode bitrate... it also has full German subtitles and menus and everything, as well as a German headphone track. It all depends on what's important to you. The simple solution is to buy both! ;-)

V

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Regarding an "extended cut" of T1, that's a Cameron call... but I wouldn't do it unless we had the resources and time to do it right (and have the scenes Lowry'd like the rest of the film and remixed to match) and it was hidden as an unofficial version. I think the scenes are interesting, but I'd hate to see them cut back into the film... there was a reason they were omitted!

V

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

So the Germans will be getting the 7.1 mix that Kino knocked up? Interesting. I don't particularly care that we're not getting it in English because (as you said Van) it's a mix they did off their own back, but you can bet that people will be whining about it on the internets for years to come.

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Geoff, since the UK, French and German versions are all on one single disc release, if you're in the UK you'll get both the English DTS-HD Master Audio lossless track AND the German 7.1 dubbed track on the same disc (along with a French DTS-HD High Resolution, an English Dolby Headphone and a German non-Dolby headphone track). There is no "legit" Cameron-approved 7.1 track, of course.

Hope this helps,

V

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I wonder if the US disc will be region coded ? The last one wasn't, but it was a no frills release. I want to get the version with the biggest-best encoding.