Warner Bros. upsets me

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Well, if that were truly the case then neither Dallas nor The Waltons would see continued releases.


While I'm sure they want younger demographics, if what you said was truly the case as well, I doubt they would have released the entirety of M*A*S*H or the Irwin Allen series. The young people of today only laugh at Lost In Space and The Time Tunnel.

If TMTMS had sold as well as M*A*S*H we would have long ago finished the series, and seen a "complete" boxset as well.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Exactly, money is money, and the studio wants to get as much of it as they can, from whatever show. If older shows sold as well as newer shows did they we wouldn't be having this conversation. They can maximize their profits with newer shows, so that's what they invest their time and money in.

If you view a studio as a family and each division of the studio as a family member then it becomes easier to understand how one area making lots of money doesn't mean another is free to waste it. If my brother was bringing in heaps of money each year it doesn't mean I can sit unemployed and he'd support me. That's his money, and I have to earn my own, just like each division of the studio wants to be in the black, not the read.

I saw something the other day that shocked me, and is relevant to this conversation. Rob & Big, the MTV "reality show" about a skateborder and his body guard sold (not shipped) 131,000 copies in 27 weeks (information supplied by the studio to retailers). I doubt anyone in this thread would buy this set, but 131,000 people apparently did. I've also heard about a popular '80s anthology series that sold under 20,000 units and hasn't been continued.

Gord

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

That is just sad to read. I know it is hard to knock what others like. But i guess this is the world we live in today, where crap like an MTV Reality show can move so many copies. Yes i realize i will take flack for calling something crap just because i do not watch it. But the reality is, there is not much quality on tv today, especially on MTV. Yikes!

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Good Lord. I'm just sad that a show like Growing Pains(a pretty good show) gets the axe, and garbage like Rob and Big sells like hot cakes.
The garbage comment is just my opinion of course, but a scripted reality show selling that good on dvd...
Edit: Aryn, I have watched Rob & Big. It's time spent watching a tv show that I actually felt guilty for wasting. It's only happened one other time, and that was with the Andy Milinokis show(another MTV treasure).

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Demographics are meaningless in DVD sales except to the extent that they actually predict sales success. Nobody would much care if the TV-on-DVD audience skewed 90% 60 and over and Leave it to Beaver were the all-time best-selling title as long as the raw numbers were good.

Demographics are important in advertising-supported media because not only do different age groups and other subdivisions buy different products and have different levels of disposable income, but because they differ in the degree to which they can be influenced by advertising. Younger people tend to be more experimental and more willing to check out alternatives to their regular choices. Older people tend to have moved out of the experimental stage and have settled tastes and preferences. A 22 year old who is looking to replace his first car (a Honda) can be persuaded to at least test drive a Toyota by a commercial. A 54 year-old who has been driving Cadillacs since his first big promotion at 30 is unlikely to change brands. This has nothing "stereotypes" and everything to do with reality. Of course, reality is something a lot of people have a hard time dealing with when the subject of TV on DVD comes up.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I never even heard of "Rob & Big". You're right; I wouldn't even buy it, let alone check it out.

This is truly depressing.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

the sales of "Rob & Big" make sense since it is a recent MTV show about a skateboarder. Skateboarders make a nice chunk of their change selling DVDs of their exploits. They have a built in base. Also the DVD features the series "uncensored." So the kids who taped it, have an excuse to upgrade.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Warner Brothers DOESN'T NEED to worry about releasing old tv shows as they have one of the best FILM LIBRARIES of classic films (Warners, RKO, Seven-Arts and even Monogram/AA/Lorimar) under their belts.

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You do understand what a tax "write-off" is, don't you?

Instead of your children starving AND sending a cheque to the government, your children are just starving.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Thank you, Joseph, for interjecting some sense and actual facts into this discussion.

Look, I'm very disappointed that I'm unlikely to be able to get the last seasons of "Mary Tyler Moore" and "The Bob Newhart Show" on DVD. But this has nothing to do with the "ugly head" of demographics or stereotypes, and everything to do with actual sales. Had neither been released at all, I would be tempted to say the studio was underestimating their appeal. But four seasons of each were released! Four! And not many people bought them. I did. I wish others were more like me, but then, I always wish that.

When favorite shows are discontinued, the same old excuses and conspiracy theories always pop up. Somehow, the studios are always accused of pretending that sales were lousy, presumably because they don't want money or something. Inevitably, a lack of promotion is blamed. It's always the same, and it's always based on a faulty assumption: millions of people share my taste, so surely the only reason the show has been discontinued is because the studio is inept, or purposely denying us our desire, or both.

What the studios want is money. It's easy to sneer at this "corporate greed," but it is through the making of money that the employees are paid and the shareholders are compensated. This should be pretty basic. When money is lost, jobs are lost. This is the way it works, and it is nearly as scientific as gravity.

Let's leave the studios aside for a moment, though. Using MTM as an example, if your local Best Buy, or Wal-Mart, or Target (to name any of the big box stores that have largely cornered the brick-and-mortar market) sells very few copies of MTM season four, how many copies of season five are they likely to stock, given that shelf space is limited (now, DVDs are sharing space with Blu-Rays, too)? So if you're 20th Century Fox, how do you even get enough copies of MTM 5 into stores?

Some shows sell well, some shows don't, for a wide variety of reasons that often continue to surprise or confound me. But sales are sales, and I don't expect any company to run itself into the ground so that I may own my DVDs.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

What you were saying above was well thought out. I just feel with this bit your losing your argument to an extent. These studios are not going to run themselves into the ground by releasing Mary Tyler Moore for example. They are not losing money on these types of releases. Sure there are examples to be had of where that is the case. But for the most part they do not lose money. There is not a big profit okay fine. But a small profit is still a profit. I do not understand the mindset and excuses (that is what they are) time after time that want say don't blame the studios. Hogwash!

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Advertising is a valid concern. When the Mary Tyler Moore Show's surviving cast went on Oprah, she gave away DVD copies to the studio audiences, and the Amazon sales positions of the available seasons skyrocketed. Awareness is key.

They are underestimating the interest in these shows. As I have said before, Fox was claiming for years that MTM S1 sold badly. Then sales figures came out contradicting them, as did statements from a reputable source on this very board. So either Fox has unrealistic assumptions about what constitutes good sales or they outright lied. Why should I assume good faith on the studio's part when they have not earned it?

Consumers do play a part. Here on the HTF we have heard about people who won't buy season 1 until season 2 comes out. Well, if every potential customer took that attitude, season 2 would never come out (and that seems to be happening). But that attitude was not created in a vacuum.

That 20,000 selling 1980s anthology (my guess would be Amazing Stories) probably did lose money. But to automatically deduce that nobody wants Amazing Stories (or whatever show it was) on DVD is jumping to a conclusion without looking at all the facts. But how are we supposed to find these facts? Universal didn't say what it cost to make the DVD, and their infrastructure is so bloated as to make it impossible for most shows to make a profit.

Those Rob & Big sales figures are depressing. But what's more depressing is how the quality of popular culture seems to be in a tailspin and no one can do anything about it.


Thank you for saying this.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Sorry, can't agree. First of all, I'd love to see your accounting for how these don't lose money. I don't know where you've come up with it.

But let's say that 20th Century does make a small profit on MTM. And they make a big profit on (say) "The Simpsons" and "Family Guy." Any company has finite resources. They can't simply release everything at once. If you were in charge of home video releases at 20th Century Fox, would you use these resources for releases that make a small profit, or for one that makes a big one? Keep in mind, a valid answer is not "both!" Because that's simply not possible. Again, resources are finite. You have to choose. Would you not prioritize the profitable releases?

No studio has ever, to my knowledge, announced that they will never release a certain series. It's simply that releases that make little profit are not a priority when releases that will be successful are. If you think this is an unreasonable course of action, please explain why.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

We will agree to disagree then.. Would a small studio be willing to take on these shows you claim would run a major studio into the ground. If there was no money to be made on them? I don't think so.... The fact remains they do not lose money on these releases. They just do not see a big enough profit to make it worth there while. Which in turn is why they upset so many people.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Mike*SC, you're right but some people won't ever want to hear what you're saying and it's futile to even try.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

He is right in some aspects.. but not in every aspect. If you guys have the numbers to prove these shows are running the studios into the ground. Then you are welcome to step up and prove it.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I don't have any sales numbers. It's only common sense that if abandoned series were generating enough profit for the studios, they'd keep releasing them.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Right, but my whole argument was against the notion these shows are running major studios into the ground, which was said a few posts back. That is so far from the truth. Yes it is about profit and how much profit. Because you know these shows are making some money when you have smaller lesser known studios clamoring to take them on. Those are the studios that would be run into the ground if these shows did not make money. With the major studios it's not enough of a profit and more about greed to make it worth there while. But in some realms the mindset is greed is good and that very well may be the case. But that does not mean it is right.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I definitely don't think it's right. While I understand that the studio is only out for money, it's a crime that The Larry Sanders Show or The Mary Tyler Moore Show or Leave It To Beaver, etc. have been abandoned but so many other crappy shows are on DVD just because they sell better.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Did I say "running into the ground"? I probably did. I was guilty of hyperbole. That should not hijack this debate (well, not any more than a thread about Warner Bros. became about a 20th Century Fox property).

Whether a studio is "run into the ground" or not, they must do things that make money, not lose money. A few unprofitable DVD sets will not destroy a multinational corporation, true, but why are they obligated to produce products that don't make money? Remember Crystal Pepsi (the clear Pepsi)? It didn't sell well, so they discontinued it. By your logic, fans of invisible colas should demand Pepsi keep producing it just for them! (And I'm sure these fans would insist it was profitable, too.)

Somebody said "the fact is" that they do make money on these DVDs. I see the word "fact" there, but not any actual facts.

And by the way, I think it is a tragedy that Larry Sanders, and Mary Tyler Moore, and Bob Newhart, and Taxi were met with indifference from the DVD-buying public. But I can't blame the studios for a public that fails to appreciate these great shows.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Mike, well-said. I've often wondered why that is the case as in a previous post. "Where are all of my fellow Baby Boomers that grew up on the older shows?" I think it's one of the reasons as you said, non-interest in buying TV shows on DVD vs movie DVD's.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I'm just amazed that Welcome Back Kotter was dropped that fast. They did do promotion via Entertainment Tonight to get the word out. At least they put out both seasons of F Troop.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I'll go out on a limb here and say that gravity probably also existed before Newton was even born.

===================

Certainly WB isn't the only culprit here. Count me as a huge Leave It to Beaver fan who is vainly waiting for Universal to reconsider it's halt in production of season sets.

I'm never quite sure why people ever assume there are ulterior motives for the studios to drop production of certain shows. Why isn't lack of profitability enough? What other reasons would they have?

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

It feels like allof the studios have slowed down on releasing anything new in the tv-on-dvd department. Classic tv has been almost left for dead lately. And the stuff that has been announced doesn't seem like it would sell. Why take a chance on stuff that hasn't even really developed an audience? Sony announced Cashmere Mafia today which I had never even heard of before and it was cancelled by the network. But this stuff must be selling, right? Uhmmmm, maybe?

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I love the irony that Matthew's post reminded me of a scene from a classic 90s show (that I'm sure he hates), Seinfeld:
I love it when people discuss things they don't know about and act like they're on authority figure on the topic. Speaking of which ...
I love how you make "factual statements" with nothing to back you up, then ask other people to prove what they're saying, which they're not even stating as facts. Where are the small studios "willing to take on" shows such as MTM? If a small studio was willing to take it on, I'm sure there'd be an announcement of a forthcoming release. And where are your numbers that prove FOX didn't lost money but, rather, made a small profit?

If you're going to state something as a fact, as you did ("the fact remains..."), be ready to back your "fact" up with evidence.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

The Sex and the City crowd will lap it up.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

I love...no wait, what's the opposite of love...hate, how you and others can accuse me of claiming to be an authority on sales by saying that a show was not a failure while at the same time claiming absolute certainty that it was. I was merely stating information based on what was available based on statements made on this very board from people who should know what is going on.

150,000 sales of season 1 of The Mary Tyler Moore Show is a fact. 75,000 sales of season 4 is also a fact. These were stated publicly. The first one was in an article about sales of TV show DVD sets several years ago. It is also a fact that a Fox representative in a chat on this very board called the sales of these sets failures, and between then and 2005, when season 2 miraculously appeared, the show was held up as the Ishtar of TV-DVD sets, while another industry insider here named David Levine claimed that the sets sold well. I am merely trying to find out what variables could cause such numbers, which any independent would kill to have, to be considered failure. I have never once claimed authority on anything. I do not work for these studios. I am merely a consumer who is sick and tired of supporting studios for their inconsistent and often shoddy work and then being left in the lurch with no explanation other than vague statements which may or may not be true. Here's what David Levine, who works for BCI and does consider himself an authority, had to say.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/3381821-post8.html


http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/3381858-post11.html

After I questioned him on this statement, he replied:


They can't both be right. I am trying to find out who is. Should I, therefore, be attacked for trying to find the answer?

And by the way, I never said that I hated "Seinfeld". However, the reason for its popularity eludes me after watching it, and I certainly hate its influence on TV (and society) since then. It made "Friends" possible.


Of course it did. But it was Newton who proved it and formulated his three laws of motion.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Back when MTM was released it was considered a failure because it didn't sell as many copies as they had expected. This was their first classic TV set, and they expected to sell as many copies as the newer shows, so it was a rude awakening when it didn't. It took Fox awhile to realize that classic TV doesn't do as well as newer stuff, so they lowered their expectations and released season 2.

Gord

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

How?


How did "Seinfeld" make "Friends" possible? I don't understand.

Re: Warner Bros. upsets me

Starting to get a little heated here. I will try to take the high road. I guess you overlooked there is new hope for stalled shows thread. There are small studios looking to get in on some of these shows (now that it seems some larger studios are willing to farm them out it seems). If they are sure fire ways to lose money. Why then is that the case ? I am making statements that are logical and make some sense. Perhaps i used a bad choice of words when i said the fact remains. But leave it to someone to take it out of context. But that is my own fault for not being clearer.