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Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

#91
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
"Horrible"? Really? Is it really "horrible"?

As I noted in the 'are there too many complaints' thread, this is the kind of hyperbole that is irritating. Is it less than the ideal (given what is possible)? Certainly. Is it disappointing? Of course. Do people have the right to complain and withhold their money? Sure. But do we really need such exaggeration?
Welcome to the internet? Is this your first visit?

While I think it is worth complaining about not providing lossless audio on a modern title for which a premium price is being asked, I find it hard to take anyone who calls Dolby Digital "unlistenable" seriously, particularly if it is at a high bitrate such as 640kbps. Dismissing all lossy codecs basically redefines most theatrical presentations from the last decade as "unlistenable" since they also used high bitrate lossy codecs such as DD, DTS, or SDDS/ATRAC.

Regards,

Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

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#92
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
Welcome to the internet? Is this your first visit?

While I think it is worth complaining about not providing lossless audio on a modern title for which a premium price is being asked, I find it hard to take anyone who calls Dolby Digital "unlistenable" seriously, paticularly if it is at a high bitrate such as 640kbps. Dismissing all lossy codecs basically redefines most theatrical presentations from the last decade as "unlistenable" since they also used high bitrate lossy codecs such as DD, DTS, or SDDS/ATRAC.

Regards,
Not quite my first visit. Perhaps my expectations of reasonable discourse, which are limited to a very few boards, are a bit higher than what the general level of discussion here led me to believe.

On the subject of audio, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#93
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

I've only viewed this thread on occasion but I have to say I agree with those who feel this title is being shortchanged regards audio.

Look...what we have had over the years has sounded damn fine. But if we are paying for a premium format...a premium price for players and accompanying hardware...then why not expect the disc to be full tilt boogie audio wise. I mean a release of "Juno" with the standard AC3 or DTS is fine. This is an action flick.

With Tosh's coming upconverting player...even with existing upconverting players...this may become a standard dvd purchase for some.
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#94
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Scooter,

lossless isn't just about action flicks, it's about *fidelity*. dialogue realism gets a big boost from lossless, which applies to any film in any genre.

Quote:
While I think it is worth complaining about not providing lossless audio on a modern title for which a premium price is being asked, I find it hard to take anyone who calls Dolby Digital "unlistenable" seriously, particularly if it is at a high bitrate such as 640kbps. Dismissing all lossy codecs basically redefines most theatrical presentations from the last decade as "unlistenable" since they also used high bitrate lossy codecs such as DD, DTS, or SDDS/ATRAC.

Well, we've also been watching 480i television for years. However, if I slapped that on a Blu-ray for your feature presentation it would probably qualify as "unwatchable" despite the fact that it's exactly the way we've watched the evening news for several decades.

"unlistenable" or "unwatchable" are terms relative to what's attainable and not delivered. Granted, the hymperbole may sound extreme to someone who's not passionate on these particular points. But the imperative to provide lossless audio on every Blu-ray disc should be a basic point upon which all HT enthusiasts agree regardless of the rhetoric used to describe the reasoning for one's position.
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.
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#95
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Nice thread! I'm glad there are plenty of people "watching the gate". As an individual all I can do is not buy when my basic expectations are not met. I would hope this forum has a heck of a lot more influence, it does have a certain reputation for accuracy and reasonableness...
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#96
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Fortunately, Warner Bros. own online store made it very convenient for me to cancel this title by lowering the price of The Ultimate Matrix Collection so that its total cost is lower now by itself with the new 25% off code than it was with the 30% one, which required me ordering more than one title (Speed Racer at the time). Take that WB!
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#97
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
"unlistenable" or "unwatchable" are terms relative to what's attainable and not delivered.
That may be your personal definition, but in standard English those terms delineate absolute conditions, not relative ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
But the imperative to provide lossless audio on every Blu-ray disc should be a basic point upon which all HT enthusiasts agree . . .
I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
. . . regardless of the rhetoric used to describe the reasoning for one's position.
And that's where you lose me (and others).

M.
Zoloft and Paxil and Buspar and Xanex, Depacon, Chronaphin, Ambien, Prozac,
Ativan calms me when I see the bills.
These are a few of my favorite pills.
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#98
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

I would never classify lossy DD as "unlistenable", I don't agree with Warner's move here because this isn't DVD and BD is supposed to carry lossless audio and a release like this screams for it.

I also agree with David in that lossless audio is just as important on quieter films as loud action films. To say otherwise, to me, is the same thing as saying that it's only important that action film's are shown in their OAR's and it doesn't matter for any other genre of films.

If lossless audio gives me a more pronounce sense of space and imerses me in the film more it should be made available on all films on BD.

I contacted Warner and told them basically that I won't be buying this title and that if they need to shortchange this release remove the extras instead of the lossless track, compromising bonus content is better than compromising presenataion of the main feature which is the main reason we buy films on BD in the first place.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#99
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
"unlistenable" or "unwatchable" are terms relative to what's attainable and not delivered.

That may be your personal definition, but in standard English those terms delineate absolute conditions, not relative ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
But the imperative to provide lossless audio on every Blu-ray disc should be a basic point upon which all HT enthusiasts agree . . .

I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
. . . regardless of the rhetoric used to describe the reasoning for one's position.

And that's where you lose me (and others).

M.
(emphasis mine)

Exactly. Is not one of the most fundamental purposes of fora like this one (and this one, in my opinion, is a cut above a number of others) to educate "newbies" to the hobby? Are we not doing them a disservice by employing language that sensationalizes and exaggerates needlessly? There are many places I can go to get that if that's what I want. Here, I get passionate yet clearly articulated commentary from such renowned authorities as RAH, among others. The general quality of discussion here is something many other boards (A/V oriented or not) can only dream of. I would like that to continue to be the case and while whatever hyperbole I see here is not yet significant enough to make this site anything but one of the best, I have seen other sites (both A/V oriented or not) where such commentary started out small, yet set a tone that, eventually, made them far less enjoyable and informative than they once were. I would hate to see the heated rhetoric of the "format wars" (which, no doubt, started out with good intentions) intrude on what has remained a hearty, yet generally reasonable, discussion.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#100
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Paul,

I'm not saying that folks shouldn't attempt to have a reasonable conversation.

I'm just saying that what's "unwatchable" or "unlistenble" to an enthusiast who's passionate about his or her transparent audio/video is not the same as what's unwatchable/unlistenble to someone else.

Would you say that an image that's VHS quality is "unwatchable" if it showed up on a DVD? Would you say it's "unwatchable" if it was also Pan and Scan? Would the average shopper at Walmart agree with your description of unwatchability? It should be obvious that Webster's definition is being used by both parties... they each, however, have different *criteria* as to what makes the image watchable or unwatchable (criteria that Webster doesn't specify because it can't be generalized).

We all use terms to reflect our passion for HT that others outside our hobby would think are misapplied. And even within our group the varying levels of passion on particular points will cause differences. I'm sure there are plenty of HTF members reading this thread who think that the EE-ridden Phantom Menace DVD is perfectly watchable, while others consider it un-watchable. If we can have this sort of disparity for our regard for image quality, why would audio be any less subjective per an individual's own values and perceptions?
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.
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#101
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Paul,

I'm not saying that folks shouldn't attempt to have a reasonable conversation.

I'm just saying that what's "unwatchable" or "unlistenble" to an enthusiast who's passionate about his or her transparent audio/video is not the same as what's unwatchable/unlistenble to someone else.

Would you say that an image that's VHS quality is "unwatchable" if it showed up on a DVD? Would you say it's "unwatchable" if it was also Pan and Scan? Would the average shopper at Walmart agree with your description of unwatchability? It should be obvious that Webster's definition is being used by both parties... they each, however, have different *criteria* as to what makes the image watchable or unwatchable (criteria that Webster doesn't specify because it can't be generalized).

We all use terms to reflect our passion for HT that others outside our hobby would think are misapplied. And even within our group the varying levels of passion on particular points will cause differences. I'm sure there are plenty of HTF members reading this thread who think that the EE-ridden Phantom Menace DVD is perfectly watchable, while others consider it un-watchable. If we can have this sort of disparity for our regard for image quality, why would audio be any less subjective per an individual's own values and perceptions?
If I found something that fit the scenario above, here's how I would describe it in a place where people go to learn something of use (actually, I'll use something that's on my shelf):

Guilty By Suspicion is a disappointing release from Warner Brothers on several fronts. Available only in pan and scan, we are deprived of seeing the film as it was intended. Furthermore, its image quality is far from impressive, being only somewhat better than the VHS edition (owing entirely to the superior nature of DVD as a format, not to any extra effort made by the studio to make it look good). Moreover, it does not have a 5.1 audio option--perhaps not a big loss because it is largely dialogue driven and has no effects shots to speak of, but even quiet dramas can benefit from a nice ambient surround mix. They've been made for far older films, so there is little excuse for the lack of one here. Overall, neither the video nor the audio is anywhere near the potential of the DVD format and should not be anyone's choice as a "demo disc". I've watched it on a regular SD TV, a small HD monitor and via my HD PJ onto a 64 inch 16x9 screen. It looks "best" on smaller screens. Don't bother firing up the whole HT for this one. Perhaps Warner will revisit this title, but I think it unlikely.

Should one buy the film? Unless one has a reason to do so (I do, as the topic of the film is relevant to some of my courses), I would say no. It is a mildly interesting film with some good performances, but it is not something people should feel sad about overlooking. At best, a rental recommendation if you are interested in a reasonable glimpse of what the atmosphere was like in Hollywood during the HUAC hearings of McCarthyism fame.

If asked for a shorter review just of A/V quality, I'd simply provide this:

Overall, neither the video (pan and scan only) nor the audio (no surround option available) is anywhere near the potential of the DVD format and should not be anyone's choice as a "demo disc". I've watched it on a regular SD TV, a small HD monitor and via my HD PJ onto a 64 inch 16x9 screen. It looks "best" on smaller screens. Don't bother firing up the whole HT for this one.


Of the 500 or so titles in my collection, I'd rank this one in the bottom ten for A/V quality--yet it is not "unwatchable" nor would I use that to describe it. I certainly don't derive as much pleasure from it as I otherwise might (if it were in anamorphic widescreen with a nice surround mix) and I'm not afraid to say so, but I don't feel I need to call it "unwatchable" without qualification.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#102
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

I have seen unwatchable video. 8th-generation-plus VHS dubs, with incredible white clipping, flickers of colour reversal (in NTSC!), and vertical sync rolls. Nobody could watch this stuff (copies of fan-made anime music videos, themselves edited on home VHS decks from multi-generation bootlegs of material not available in the US at the time) — part of the time there wasn't even a coherent image, and the rest of the time it was a strain just to figure out what the image was. That's unwatchable. Nearly-unwatchable is the U.S. DVD release of Iczer-One, which appears to have been compressed from a late-generation VHS dub (the picture is, at points, almost washed out by the combination of analog and MPEG noise), or a skip-field Sony CV format video tape from the mid-1960s played back on a late-60s EIAJ machine (the frame is made up of two non-adjacent fields, giving a bizarre double image appearance).

A Blu-Ray which has been overprocessed so that the images don't look like film may be disappointing, unpleasant, or even disturbing to watch, but it does not fall into the class of absolute impediments to viewing.


Resources for :
Anime on LaserDisc
Everything on LaserDisc
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#103
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Re: Bits now confirms - Warner drops lossless audio for Speed Racer BD

VHS projected on a 10 foot screen can be considered unwatchable, no argument there. Home theater soundtrack at nearly double the bitrate of the theatrical soundtrack can never be consider unlistenable by any definition.
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