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Warner and the question of lossless audio

#1
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7/13/08 at 9:06pm
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On dvd Warner has always shunned a higher format of audio, meaning they never used dts.

now on hd dvd and blu-ray they either don't use it (it meaning lossless audio not dts) or only on high profile movies.

now that Universal is in the blu-ray format and is using dts hd ma apparently on all titles, i'm just very confused about why Warner won't.

So what's the deal Warner?

edit: the words (nothing it seems: see post 35) are not my words and were not put there by me.
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#2
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7/14/08 at 12:03am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
On dvd Warner has always shunned a higher format of audio, meaning they never used dts.

now on hd dvd and blu-ray they either don't use it or only on high profile movies.

now that Universal is in the blu-ray format and is using dts hd ma apparently on all titles, i'm just very confused about why Warner won't.

So what's the deal Warner?
That's not accurate. The Lethal Weapon films when re-released as well as the first four Batman films when re-released all have DTS tracks. Twister and Interview with a Vampire have them on their re-releases as well. The list goes on.

" I think it's time we go to plan B". "What's plan B?" "That's the one where we don't do something stupid".

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#3
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7/14/08 at 12:28am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

actually are you sure that isn't the list.
i think twister and vampire were released by morgan's creek.

it is just a small drop compared to the total of movies warner has put on dvd and now hd media.

jeez, what am doing awake at this hour.
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#4
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7/14/08 at 3:26am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

DTS is not a "higher" format. And they were late, both on DVD and HiDef discs. Also, DTS decoders were not immediately available in players and receivers.

So, limiting this discussion to HD now, Warner used TrueHD and DD+, both high-res audio. And TrueHD is lossless.

So, to answer your question: as far as we know they have nothing against "hi res/lossless" audio!


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#5
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7/14/08 at 5:42am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

I would have thought that with both DD and DTS now having lossless formats, the idea that one or the other was objectively better would no longer exist.
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#6
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7/14/08 at 6:00am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Crippen
I would have thought that with both DD and DTS now having lossless formats, the idea that one or the other was objectively better would no longer exist.
Yeah, it's a dead issue. There are a few diehards trying to keep it alive on a minor technical point or two (and I'm not going to do their work for them by saying what ), but there's really nothing to it.

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#7
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7/14/08 at 6:42am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
I would have thought that with both DD and DTS now having lossless formats, the idea that one or the other was objectively better would no longer exist.
I posted a prediction before the hidef formats came out that there would still be people claiming that DTS is superior to DD even with lossless formats, and I was right.
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#8
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7/14/08 at 7:31am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

And the VAST majority of BD users will still have no idea what we are talking about. PQ anyone can see, AQ between lossy and lossless will be a non issue for the significant majority of viewers.

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#9
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7/14/08 at 7:59am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I posted a prediction before the hidef formats came out that there would still be people claiming that DTS is superior to DD even with lossless formats, and I was right.
Good call!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten
PQ anyone can see
You'd think so, but I'm no longer sure. Before big guns like Robert Harris made the DNR issue into a major topic, people like me who complained about it would routinely get dismissed by posters saying they couldn't see the difference. (I can find you links if you want proof.) With hi-def, I think we've reached a point where judging PQ requires a more educated eye than with standard DVD.

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#10
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7/14/08 at 8:42am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

oops how did it become the old dts lossless is better then DD lossless?

On sd dvd i guess your right dts really wasn't a "higher res" format.

But it was thought to be better by some people at least when it was offered in full bit rate, which the few warner titles that had it did have the higher bit rate.

As for hdm I did have the "lossless" in the title too so the question remains.
Why when other studios such as Universal are putting it on probably every disc,
Why doesn't warner?
Why only the hi profile movies.

is it really just because of "Also, DTS decoders were not immediately available in players and receivers."

players with these decoders were going to become available and did within about 2 years of the format.


I was gonna say it's not keeping me up at night, but I already posted in this at 3 am.


oh well, just thought something to talk about.

maybe the hi res can e removed from the title, doesnt really apply.
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#11
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7/14/08 at 9:43am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
oops how did it become the old dts lossless is better then DD lossless?
It became that because of the way wrote your initial post. You wrote it entirely about DTS, as if that were the only lossless format. People can react only to the words you actually write, not to what's in your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
Why when other studios such as Universal are putting it on probably every disc
You couldn't have picked a worse example. Most of Universal's hi-def discs to date have been on the now-abandoned HD DVD format. The vast majority of those discs did not feature lossless audio. They did not even feature DD+ at a high bitrate. Warner didn't do such a great job with soundtracks either, but during the format wars, they did a better job than Universal.

We're seeing an improvement in the inclusion of lossless tracks in new releases across the boards. For that I think you can thank the enthusiast community on forums like this one.

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#12
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7/14/08 at 9:54am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

you know, i'm not trying to start a new controversy here.
i just see that warner is reluctant to use lossless audio and i was just bringing it up for discussion.
i didn't bring up dts lossless vs DD truehd someone else did that, so i just wondered were that came from.

sheesh michael i feel like i'm on your list now or something.
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#13
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7/14/08 at 10:11am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
sheesh michael i feel like i'm on your list now or something.
Huh?

I'm a regular participant in this area. So are a lot of folks. If you post here, you'll probably run into the same people in different threads. Happens all the time.

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#14
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7/14/08 at 10:20am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
sheesh michael i feel like i'm on your list now or something.
Ha, ha, Tony. You're not on anyone's "list" here.

Maybe it's me who was responsible for the strong reaction, because when you started your post with
Quote:
On dvd Warner has always shunned a higher format of audio, meaning they never used dts.

now on hd dvd and blu-ray they either don't use it...
I felt obliged to reply with 'DTS is not a "higher" format.', which elicited more reactions. It really wasn't clear right away that you meant *all* hi-def audio codecs!
(BTW, I noticed that you now clarified your post a little.)

No offense meant, and you helped create a lively discussion about an old subject again.



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#15
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7/14/08 at 10:44am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Not to defend WB for titles that do not include one of the newer audio formats, but the last five titles I purchased from them had four with PCM tracks and one with TrueHD.

I’d say that things are looking up.
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#16
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7/14/08 at 10:49am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I posted a prediction before the hidef formats came out that there would still be people claiming that DTS is superior to DD even with lossless formats, and I was right.

So true. The power of marketing can be amazing.
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#17
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7/14/08 at 7:13pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Michael: I agree with you but gear also makes a tremendous difference in what viewers 'see', one personal example is that the Panasonic Smoothscreen of my AE-900u dampens EE from what I'm told. In general tho its easier to make a value judgement on PQ.

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#18
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7/14/08 at 9:03pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Whether or not a WB title has TrueHD on it or not depends on when the disc image was finished. If it was finished before they went BD only and fully committed to using lossless audio on all releases its not guaranteed a TrueHD track.

This info per insiders at blu-ray.com.
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#19
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7/15/08 at 9:59am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten
... Panasonic Smoothscreen of my AE-900u dampens EE from what I'm told. In general tho its easier to make a value judgement on PQ.
So let me see if I have this right Sam: your Panasonic uses electronics to remove the effects introduced by other electronics.

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#20
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7/16/08 at 2:12pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
You couldn't have picked a worse example. Most of Universal's hi-def discs to date have been on the now-abandoned HD DVD format. The vast majority of those discs did not feature lossless audio.
True, but Universal has announced that every title on BD will have lossless DTS-MA, much the same way Fox/MGM titles do.

I just found out that the forthcoming New Line/Warner release of Blow is going to have plain old DD at 640kbps. Too bad Warner had to take over New Line. I just saved $20.

Also, I just read a review of the Dutch release of The Aviator which has lossless and reportedly sounds light years better than the standard WB DD track.

Warner is still the bottom of the barrel of the high-def studios. They have done some great work at times, but these discs are too expensive to put up with lossy audio and DNR. Warner has far too many titles that look waxy and offer little advantage in the audio department over DVD.
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#21
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7/16/08 at 4:00pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Adkins
True, but Universal has announced that every title on BD will have lossless DTS-MA, much the same way Fox/MGM titles do.

I just found out that the forthcoming New Line/Warner release of Blow is going to have plain old DD at 640kbps. Too bad Warner had to take over New Line. I just saved $20.

Also, I just read a review of the Dutch release of The Aviator which has lossless and reportedly sounds light years better than the standard WB DD track.

Warner is still the bottom of the barrel of the high-def studios. They have done some great work at times, but these discs are too expensive to put up with lossy audio and DNR. Warner has far too many titles that look waxy and offer little advantage in the audio department over DVD.

i dont know about the waxy part and the DD+ is still better then whats on
sd dvd but the other points are exactly what i'm trying to bring up in the first post, but apparently not stated as well as it could have been.
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#22
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7/16/08 at 6:07pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

It gets worse.

Bill Hunt just confirmed that SPEED RACER will only get lossy Dolby Digital audio on Blu-ray...

INSANE.

Warner, you've just thrown away sales.
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#23
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7/16/08 at 6:20pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

I am one who does appreciate the lossless audio formats. I can't believe the large number of people on certain "techy" (or used to be...) AV Sites who say they can't hear the diff and it's not worthwhile. And I'm an old man, have these "kids" burned their ears out, or is 192kbps MP3 already hi-res to them?? Could be their gear, and not growing up in an analog world could affect your audio reproduction standards.

One thing that really bugs me, and has for years but more important (to me) now: how come online dealers don't usually list the sound formats in detail. They don't even make a half-assed attempt, not that most of their "tech" info is very detailed anyway, but they have plenty of other useless info. I wish they'd all just take an image of the back of the case, easy enough, no knowledge required, just do it!

I will not buy any BD with only "core" audio quality. I want the whole experience upgraded, and that hugely means the sound too (for me).
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#24
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7/16/08 at 6:47pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

that speed racer news is just a shame.
i won't buy it now.
this will be a nice rental for me but i won't support if the lossless isnt there.
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#25
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7/16/08 at 6:52pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Some contact info for Warner...

Address: 4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, CA 91522
Phone: 818-954-6000

how about everyone call in and let them know how you really feel? Worked with Disney on Muppet Treasure Island...
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#26
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7/16/08 at 7:56pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

I had the pleasure of listening too "Jailhouse Rock" last night.
It defaults to DD (5.1 640kbps) which was fine although not exciting. Then switched over too TrueHD (5.1 3Mbps) which was a revelation! Ended up on mono (192kbps) w/solid imaging & the most realistic bass on my system.
(horrible menu on this title BTW)
Then this morning, even passed the All Star game, Apocalypto. The Mayan PCM 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/6.9mbps) gave me my fave audio 'ever' (from my current system) w/the drums & waterfall sounds from the chase scene.
Now WB wants to take us back to single layer SD DVD days???
No thanks!!!

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HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#27
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7/16/08 at 8:03pm
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the excuse of Warner not releasing titles with lossless audio. I don't really care if these titles were in the HD DVD pipeline before. The fact is they released several HD DVD's with lossless and all BD releases should have a lossless soundtrack. The fact that they had these titles done previously without consideration for lossless shows poor planning on their part!
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#28
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7/17/08 at 6:25am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

LA Confidential is going to be BD25 and no lossless, right? That's one sale that won't happen now for me. I am bitterly disappointed. One of the best films of the last two decades and they are shafting it.

Death to PG-13! And now death to DVNR too!!

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#29
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7/17/08 at 6:43am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Some contact info for Warner...

Address: 4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, CA 91522
Phone: 818-954-6000

how about everyone call in and let them know how you really feel? Worked with Disney on Muppet Treasure Island...

Not to veer OT, but what was the issue with Muppet Treasure Island?
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#30
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7/17/08 at 7:13am
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Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphie_B
Not to veer OT, but what was the issue with Muppet Treasure Island?
If I remember correctly, it was announced as being full frame only, people complained and Disney listened and released it in widescreen.
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