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A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

#1
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6/28/08 at 9:35am
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Anybody interested in starting a class action law suit against CBS for the butchering of The Fugitive? I am not a lawyer, but is there one out there who is a fan of this show and is just as upset as anyone over what has happened with the music.

A law suit is important for several reasons. It's not just that consumers were misled when purchasing the dvds. It's that an industry wide PRECEDENT needs to be established in cases like these.

Media companies need to learn that you television programs and films are just as valid an art form as painting and sculpture. You wouldn't remove an image from a Rembrandt because you thought it might violate the rights of the person who posed for him, would you?

It shouldn't matter how many different elements were put together to create an episode of The Fugitive. Once the work is finished it should be able to stand alone as an INDEPENDENT WORK OF ART.

Media companies need to learn that they are in the ART BUSINESS and certain legal tenets should be established giving them guidelines.

For example: it should be established that unless the media company is willing to pay the costs for the use of questionable "rights" that comprised elements of certain works they should NOT HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT to produce or reproduce or distribute those works. Or they should be PROTECTED by a law that allows them to distribute the original work because it stands alone as an INDEPENDENT work of art.

My feeling is that the only way to make a serious change in the media distribution industry is by going to court and establishing ground breaking precedents. This is the only way to protect beloved cultural works such as The Fugitive and other film and television works as we move forward.
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#2
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6/28/08 at 11:18am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

I think it would be funny and fitting if in an ironic twist of fate the studio were sued by the Rugolo estate for copyright infringement on the new cues they attempted reproduce from his scores. You cannot sue a company for something like this however, it's their property and they can ruin it in anyways they like.
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#3
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6/28/08 at 12:22pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoBiscotti
You cannot sue a company for something like this however, it's their property and they can ruin it in anyways they like.
Exactly. Plus, the packaging says that the music may be changed so there's no chance at a successful lawsuit for this.
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#4
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6/28/08 at 1:18pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

joho, what CBS/Paramount did, however misguided, was motivated (uneedlessly in my opinion) by the desire to avoid the very thing you advocate--a lawsuit. Would that we could sue them for this--that possibility might have compeled them to include the underscore needlessly removed!

But I like your spirit!
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#5
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6/28/08 at 2:20pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by joho
Anybody interested in starting a class action law suit against CBS for the butchering of The Fugitive? I am not a lawyer, but is there one out there who is a fan of this show and is just as upset as anyone over what has happened with the music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
But I like your spirit!
Thank you both for illustrating a point I've often tried to make -- namely, that the glut of frivolous lawsuits isn't entirely the fault of lawyers. It also results from non-lawyers who somehow think that anything can be solved by a court case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joho
Media companies need to learn that they are in the ART BUSINESS and certain legal tenets should be established giving them guidelines.
I'm an attorney and a Fugitive fan. The principle you're trying to argue here is known as "droit morale", and U.S. law doesn't recognize it. Even if it did, the person who has the right to make the claim is the artist, not the public. The Monty Python members once tried to use it to stop ABC from airing edited episodes of their series. The judge was a Python fan, but they still lost.

M.
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#6
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6/28/08 at 2:59pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

My humor was certainly not intended to advocate frivolous lawsuits and if my post gave that impression, I'd like to clarify it.
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#7
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6/28/08 at 6:42pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Carab, I don't think your post implied that; I know what you were saying.

Agree that a lawsuit is not warranted or justified here. In my opinion, the better route to go is to publicize these edits and for consumers to voice their displeasure via written letters.

By the way, I've seen references in this thread and others to the "Rugolo Estate"....Mr. Rugolo is still alive. He may be elderly (past 90) but let's not prematurely bury him.
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#8
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6/28/08 at 9:31pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

I'd rather see a class action lawsuit filed against the recording industry for setting such outrageous fees for song clearance that studios cannot make a profit if they include the original music on their DVDs, thereby causing a bastardization of releases. This is the kind of lawsuit the public should file.
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#9
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6/28/08 at 9:44pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elena S
I'd rather see a class action lawsuit filed against the recording industry for setting such outrageous fees for song clearance that studios cannot make a profit if they include the original music on their DVDs, thereby causing a bastardization of releases.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the problems afflicting The Fugitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elena S
This is the kind of lawsuit the public should file.
And the public would have a right to file such a lawsuit because . . . ?

(Thanks for continuing to illustrate my point about the litigiousness of non-lawyers.)

M.
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#10
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6/29/08 at 12:29am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Of course, this has nothing to do with the problems afflicting The Fugitive.


Michael, I'm not up to speed on this one. What exactly are the problems with the music in The Fugitive?

Doug

Edit: Never mind I found the Fugitive thread. Thanks.
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#11
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6/29/08 at 1:29am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Never mind.
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#12
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6/29/08 at 7:59am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

What are you going to sue them for? Because they didn't include the original music? SO what? The only thing you might be able to do is get back your original purchase price ...

There's no way that a lawsuit of this kind would even have enough merit to even make it into the courtroom. Any attorney would just laugh at you for wanting to go forward with this ...
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#13
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6/29/08 at 2:15pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

> Michael, I'm not up to speed on this one. What exactly are the problems with the music in The Fugitive?

I'd like to know, too. Is this the 1960s series you're talking about? I've only seen that on DVD so if something's missing, I don't know what it is.
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#14
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6/29/08 at 2:29pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
I'd like to know, too. Is this the 1960s series you're talking about? I've only seen that on DVD so if something's missing, I don't know what it is.
They dropped the entire music score (not the music coming from a band in a nightclub or a jukebox but the score) for the S2 V1 release and replaced it with a new score.

EDIT: Here's the long thread on the subject: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...1-reviews.html
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#15
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6/29/08 at 3:42pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

semi-duplicated from the other thread:

CBS DVD can be sued for consumer fraud by promising "transferred from the original negative with restored audio."

"Restored" is the keyword since that means they were working with the original audio elements and not creating new elements that were foreign to the original soundtrack. They could have gotten away with a "restored" word if they had gone into the studio with an orchestra to create the score using the original charts. But there is no such thing as a restoration that uses elements that have nothing to do with the original design. You can't "restore" the Mona Lisa by pasting macaroni around her smile.

Maybe Robert Harris needs to get in on this since by CBS DVD using this to mean "Restored," they've ruined the public perception of what he does to a film when he "restores" it.

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#16
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6/29/08 at 5:25pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
semi-duplicated from the other thread:

CBS DVD can be sued for consumer fraud by promising "transferred from the original negative with restored audio."

"Restored" is the keyword since that means they were working with the original audio elements and not creating new elements that were foreign to the original soundtrack. They could have gotten away with a "restored" word if they had gone into the studio with an orchestra to create the score using the original charts. But there is no such thing as a restoration that uses elements that have nothing to do with the original design. You can't "restore" the Mona Lisa by pasting macaroni around her smile.

Maybe Robert Harris needs to get in on this since by CBS DVD using this to mean "Restored," they've ruined the public perception of what he does to a film when he "restores" it.

Again this is wrong. There are many so called restored sound tracks in movies that use newly recorded sounds for one reason or another. Vertigo, a film Mr. Harris worked on is one of them. My understanding in that case is that the original sound elements were not available or had been destroyed and new elements had to be used.

Doug
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Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#17
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6/29/08 at 8:13pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

The sound (dialogue, bg sounds, etc.) was restored, as I said in the other thread. That disclaimer, though slightly non-specific, is 100% accurate.

Even the word "Some" regarding the music change is accurate, since the opening and closing titles remain intact.

Those disclaimers are insidious and give the wrong impression but they are not actionable.
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#18
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6/29/08 at 8:54pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Again this is wrong. There are many so called restored sound tracks in movies that use newly recorded sounds for one reason or another. Vertigo, a film Mr. Harris worked on is one of them. My understanding in that case is that the original sound elements were not available or had been destroyed and new elements had to be used.

Doug

The restoration work on Vertigo duplicated as closely as possible the original audio - whether it be effects or score. Bob Harris did not have the sound of a cellphone going off while Jimmy Stewart's in the bar. Harris didn't try to jazz up the score by giving it a funky beat. On Spartacus, he had them read the script for the bathing scene instead of faking it to the lips. There is a matter of trust when "Restored" is used as a selling point on packaging. The first two volumes also promoted the "restored soundtrack." CBS DVD has set a standard. They have created a contract with the consumer about expectations when they declare a "restored audio."

There are rules about packaging.

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#19
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6/30/08 at 7:20am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Not to be a jerk but if you think you think this is a winning lawsuit, stop talking about it on a message board and get a lawyer.
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#20
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6/30/08 at 7:32am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
CBS DVD has set a standard. They have created a contract with the consumer about expectations when they declare a "restored audio."
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
Not to be a jerk but if you think you think this is a winning lawsuit, stop talking about it on a message board and get a lawyer.
Assuming you can find a lawyer who accepts your theories about contract. I suppose there must be one somewhere.

(And thanks for continuing to illustrate my point about the litigious nature of non-lawyers.)

M.
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#21
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6/30/08 at 7:44am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

If there is an online petition regarding this issue, I'd definitely sign. The Fugitive without the Rugolo score is ridiculous.

Imagine, if you will:

Peter Gunn without the Henry Mancini score
Dark Shadows without Bob Cobert's music, especially "Quentin's Theme"
Miami Vice without Jan Hammer's music or any of the songs used by other artists on the episodes (remember the episode bsaed on Glenn Frey's "Smuggler's Blues"?)
Peyton Place without the famous opening theme by the legendary Franz Waxman (BTW, Randy Newman did the background score for the show!)
The Dukes of Hazzard without the music (and narration) of Waylon Jennings
Victory at Sea without the Richard Rodgers score
The Twilight Zone without Bernard Hermann's music

.....and so on. Paramount really screwed up big time here. They should've moved heaven and earth (and consulted with the Rugolo estate) to make sure the original score was intact. The DVD release of Season 2 should've been delayed until the issue was settled. And now the show's many fans feel cheated, and this may affect future sales of any later volumes.
Bring "The continuing story of PEYTON PLACE" home on DVD: the one that started it all- from Dallas and Dynasty to Desperate Housewives and Gossip Girl!!! Starting this May, see the legendary saga starring Mia Farrow, Ryan O'Neal, Barbara Parkins, and Oscar-winner Dorothy Malone on DVD thru Shout!...
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#22
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6/30/08 at 8:49am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
semi-duplicated from the other thread:

CBS DVD can be sued for consumer fraud by promising "transferred from the original negative with restored audio."

"Restored" is the keyword since that means they were working with the original audio elements and not creating new elements that were foreign to the original soundtrack. They could have gotten away with a "restored" word if they had gone into the studio with an orchestra to create the score using the original charts. But there is no such thing as a restoration that uses elements that have nothing to do with the original design. You can't "restore" the Mona Lisa by pasting macaroni around her smile.

Maybe Robert Harris needs to get in on this since by CBS DVD using this to mean "Restored," they've ruined the public perception of what he does to a film when he "restores" it.

"Restore" has a significant different meaning than "replace".
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#23
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6/30/08 at 9:45am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Assuming you can find a lawyer who accepts your theories about contract. I suppose there must be one somewhere.

(And thanks for continuing to illustrate my point about the litigious nature of non-lawyers.)

M.

CBS DVD can do whatever they want to their property. That's there right. But when it comes to packaging that property and selling it to consumers, they can't mislabel the packaging. they established what they meant by "Restored Audio" on the first two volumes. Then they rendered those words meaningless by chucking out all but the opening and closing themes. They didn't restore that original audio track - they created a new audio track. When you promote an item as restored, certain quality levels are expected and since they were delivered on the first two sets, the consumer has a right to feel that CBS DVD tried to pull a fast one with a bait and switch.

maybe people are sue happy, but for a majority of the time, it is the only way that a corporation will react to consumer issues.

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#24
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6/30/08 at 10:09am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
CBS DVD can do whatever they want to their property. That's there right. But when it comes to packaging that property and selling it to consumers, they can't mislabel the packaging. they established what they meant by "Restored Audio" on the first two volumes. Then they rendered those words meaningless by chucking out all but the opening and closing themes. They didn't restore that original audio track - they created a new audio track. When you promote an item as restored, certain quality levels are expected and since they were delivered on the first two sets, the consumer has a right to feel that CBS DVD tried to pull a fast one with a bait and switch.

maybe people are sue happy, but for a majority of the time, it is the only way that a corporation will react to consumer issues.
Like I said before, if it's so clear cut then you should contact a lawyer. I would be prepared to be dissapointed though.
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#25
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6/30/08 at 10:49am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

If one attempts to build a lawsuit based on a bait and switch tactic, you may be in for a disappointment.

Bait and switch marketing tactics are defined as such (per the law encyclopedia) :
A deceptive sales technique that involves advertising a low-priced item to attract customers to a store, then persuading them to buy more expensive goods by failing to have a sufficient supply of the advertised item on hand or by disparaging its quality.


This simply doesn't apply as a basis for bait and switch marketing in this case. The company did not try to upsell the customer into a more expensive version of their product. Using the FUGITIVE as an example, this would be like them advertising a cheaper version with the original music; you go to the store to buy and it's out of stock, but they have a more expensive version to sell you with substituted music. Or conversely, they offer a cheap version with substituted music that is out of stock, and they get you into a more expensive version with the original music and disparage the quality of the lower-priced one themselves.
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#26
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6/30/08 at 10:52am
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
Like I said before, if it's so clear cut then you should contact a lawyer. I would be prepared to be dissapointed though.

I can't sue. I didn't pay for my copy.

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#27
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6/30/08 at 1:39pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
CBS DVD can do whatever they want to their property. That's there right. But when it comes to packaging that property and selling it to consumers, they can't mislabel the packaging. they established what they meant by "Restored Audio" on the first two volumes. Then they rendered those words meaningless by chucking out all but the opening and closing themes. They didn't restore that original audio track - they created a new audio track. When you promote an item as restored, certain quality levels are expected and since they were delivered on the first two sets, the consumer has a right to feel that CBS DVD tried to pull a fast one with a bait and switch.
Even if all that is true (and I'm not saying I agree with either your analysis or your terms), I don't see the contract. And I did pretty well in contract law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
maybe people are sue happy, but for a majority of the time, it is the only way that a corporation will react to consumer issues.
Adverse publicity can be just as effective, often more so. But the fact that "people are sue happy" is exactly my point. In fact, they're so "sue happy" that they don't care whether or not they have case that belongs in a court of law.

M.
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#28
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6/30/08 at 2:37pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Even if all that is true (and I'm not saying I agree with either your analysis or your terms), I don't see the contract. And I did pretty well in contract law.


Adverse publicity can be just as effective, often more so. But the fact that "people are sue happy" is exactly my point. In fact, they're so "sue happy" that they don't care whether or not they have case that belongs in a court of law.

M.

You have corporations that are deaf to the demands of consumers. You write them a letter and they merely ignore you. Are we a sue happy society? Damn right. Half the time it's all about the threat of the lawsuit to get the attention of the folks.

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#29
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6/30/08 at 5:06pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey3rd
You have corporations that are deaf to the demands of consumers. You write them a letter and they merely ignore you. Are we a sue happy society? Damn right. Half the time it's all about the threat of the lawsuit to get the attention of the folks.
Ladies and gentleman, I give you . . . the contemporary plaintiff!

Next time, please don't blame everything on the lawyers.

M.
Zoloft and Paxil and Buspar and Xanex, Depacon, Chronaphin, Ambien, Prozac,
Ativan calms me when I see the bills.
These are a few of my favorite pills.
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#30
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6/30/08 at 5:39pm
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Re: A "The Fugitive DVD" Law Suit Plea

can't discuss this any further.

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http://thedvdlounge.com/

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