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Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

#1
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6/12/08 at 2:17am
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Hello,

every time I am watching Vertigo on DVD, I am always wondering if the mastering of the DVD accurately represents what had been achieved during the restoration of this masterpiece. There are 2 parts which make me suspicious:

1. The 1996 Universal logo looks horrible. Unsharp & heavily filtered.
2. The "Restoration Credits" at the end of the movie are exactly as lacking in sharpness as most of the rest of the movie.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to criticize the meticulous efforts which had been made to present this movie in its original glory. However, I always had the feeling that the DVD was made with much less care, that Vertigo could look much better if mastered correctly.

An interesting sidenote, perhaps Robert could comment on this, would today's digital technology provide any improvements over photochemical restorations like the one applied to Vertigo?

Thank you!
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#2
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6/12/08 at 2:40am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Which edition do you watch, specifically?
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#3
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6/12/08 at 5:59am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

The first issue from 2000, but aren't all subsequent releases essentially the same? I know that the second issue was wrongly color corrected in the title sequence, but is it sharper? The transfer is anamorphic.
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#4
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6/12/08 at 6:13am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Vertigo was a film that desperately needed digital help, but the technology was not yet in place.

With a faded original negative, and heavily shrunken separation masters, it was impossible to get the film where it needed to be.

Today, going 100% digital, we could make it look precisely as it did in 1958.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#5
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6/12/08 at 7:02am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_A
The first issue from 2000, but aren't all subsequent releases essentially the same? I know that the second issue was wrongly color corrected in the title sequence, but is it sharper? The transfer is anamorphic.

The first issue on DVD was not anamorphic, so this version must be later. In fact, the first anamorphic issue was in the Masterpiece Collection set which, to my knowledge, has never been offered for sale separately (except by third party vendors).
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#6
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6/12/08 at 8:16am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Today, going 100% digital, we could make it look precisely as it did in 1958.
Just in time for Blu-ray too, wink wink nudge nudge.
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#7
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6/12/08 at 8:18am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH.
The first issue on DVD was not anamorphic, so this version must be later.
Vertigo was repressed in 1999 with crappier cover art so I assume he's referring to that.
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#8
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6/12/08 at 8:59am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

I thought that was still nonanamorphic, though. Has VERTIGO ever been released in R1 in anamorphic format?

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#9
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6/12/08 at 9:01am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Yes. The box-set release is anamorphic.
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#10
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6/12/08 at 9:02am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Today, going 100% digital, we could make it look precisely as it did in 1958.

One can only hope that there will be an opportunity for that someday

Do you think it would be more of a thrill or even relief for you personally to go back today with different tools to get it precisely right, or would it be just too much deja vu? I could understand either!
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#11
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6/12/08 at 9:12am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Vertigo was a film that desperately needed digital help, but the technology was not yet in place.

With a faded original negative, and heavily shrunken separation masters, it was impossible to get the film where it needed to be.

Today, going 100% digital, we could make it look precisely as it did in 1958.

RAH

Mr. Harris - what about Rear Window? Was that done recent enough to not need a revisit?
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#12
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6/12/08 at 9:19am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Vertigo was a film that desperately needed digital help, but the technology was not yet in place.

With a faded original negative, and heavily shrunken separation masters, it was impossible to get the film where it needed to be.

Today, going 100% digital, we could make it look precisely as it did in 1958.

RAH

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Harris!

So it would indeed be possible to make Vertigo look even better using today's technology. I assume one would have to go back to the original elements once again to make that possible, right? As I understand it, Vertigo was shot on a very unstable type of film which fades rather quickly, and 12 years have passed since the last restoration, which brings me to my next question: are the original elements still in danger, or are they being preserved so that they will last long enough for maybe another restoration attempt? Not having seen the 1996 restoration in theaters, I wonder how it would look on HD formats.

I think the work and the technical aspects of film restoration is one of the most fascinating subjects, and I just wanted to express my sincere admiration for the work you guys do to preserve an integral part of our cultural heritage.
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#13
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6/12/08 at 9:26am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH.
The first issue on DVD was not anamorphic, so this version must be later. In fact, the first anamorphic issue was in the Masterpiece Collection set which, to my knowledge, has never been offered for sale separately (except by third party vendors).

I can only say that my DVD is from 2000 (I bought it in 2003), anamorphic, and features the correct colors in the opening titles (greyish face). What I understood until now, there were just 2 releases: anamorphic and non-anamorphic. Or ist there maybe a 3rd release inbetween those 2? Could the answer be that my DVD is Region 2, PAL? Because until now, I just thought that there was only 1 worldwide anamorphic release, and that future releases just had another mastering error consisting of the wrong colors in the main titles?
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#14
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6/12/08 at 9:40am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

I'd have to double check, but I believe Vertigo WAS released as a stand alone anamorphic disc in R2 (prior to the Masterpiece Collection box set), but NOT in R1.
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#15
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6/12/08 at 9:47am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Surely Chivas Regal have some spare cash spare for a 4K restoration. :-P

I hope it does get a 4K restoration before they consider releasing it on Blu-ray.
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#16
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6/12/08 at 11:45am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

As Universal takes extraordinarily good care of elements in their trust, there would be very little change in OCN, but continued shrinkage in the masters.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#17
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6/12/08 at 12:46pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
As Universal takes extraordinarily good care of elements in their trust, there would be very little change in OCN, but continued shrinkage in the masters.

RAH

You mean the seperation masters? When I understand correctly, those masters are basically needed in every scene which is dark, because these are the parts where the OCN is faded most due to underexposure, right?

I mean, would it be possible to use digital image processing to align the seperation masters correctly, to correct the shrinkage by scaling the layers? Or are there still other, damaging factors involved?

So, I understand time is still a factor in producing the best possible restoration of Vertigo. Thanks again for your answer!
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#18
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6/12/08 at 3:53pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Mr. Harris - what about Rear Window? Was that done recent enough to not need a revisit?

Yeah, does Rear Window need more work? The Masterpiece box remaster looks fantastic... they let the heavier film grain stay and it's mostly free of dirt and scratches. The stand-alone DVD has filtering and less dirt/scratch removal. If you compare the main titles, there's a thin "rain" of artifacts due to it being an optical. Remaster is virtually spotless for that shot. But I wonder if it would be good to do a 4K digital intermediate that fixes everything that wasn't cost-effective in 1998.

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#19
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6/12/08 at 7:13pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Rear Window could be improved in one unit and another couple of short sections, but overall, the film is fine.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#20
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6/14/08 at 12:07am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
As Universal takes extraordinarily good care of elements in their trust, there would be very little change in OCN, but continued shrinkage in the masters.

RAH

Mr. Harris do you know if they store those kinds of elements off site? I know many films today are stored in old salt mines. Or would Universal be storing these films in some proximity to the recent fire?

From the news helicopter you could see a truck filled with film cans being removed from the burning storage building. It made me rather concerned about what may have been lost in that fire.

Doug
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#21
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6/14/08 at 4:00am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

If I knew, I would not be able to discuss.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#22
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6/14/08 at 9:39am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Mr. Harris do you know if they store those kinds of elements off site? I know many films today are stored in old salt mines. Or would Universal be storing these films in some proximity to the recent fire?

From the news helicopter you could see a truck filled with film cans being removed from the burning storage building. It made me rather concerned about what may have been lost in that fire.

Doug

The film materials damaged/lost in last weeks fire were 35mm prints meant for theatrical distribution. Besides some original dye-transfer prints probably among them, it's not an irreplacable loss. On the other hand, the Universal Music materials supposedly had a lot of losses.

Early reports were getting a lot of ridiculous bad information out before actually verifying anything.

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#23
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6/22/08 at 3:11pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

What about the original soundtrack, Robert? Could it be restored to 1958 condition today? The anamorphic DVD hasd the mono track, which was from an optical print, is that correct? I listen to the mono when I watch the DVD, but it is pretty ropey in places, which is understandable, but its deficiencies are less bothersome that the foley tinkering that goes on in the 5.1 remix
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#24
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6/22/08 at 5:18pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

The track cannot be adequately restored.

The original elements were destroyed well before Universal became involved with the films.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#25
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6/29/08 at 11:36am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

I have provided screen-caps of both DVD verisons and a 720p version for comparison. The difference is quite clear. It's the last post on the first page of this link.


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#26
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6/29/08 at 12:56pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Wow! The HD presentations look amazing. Any chance of seeing the introductory close up of Grace Kelly in Rear Window?
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#27
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6/29/08 at 2:42pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon McMurphy
Wow! The HD presentations look amazing. Any chance of seeing the introductory close up of Grace Kelly in Rear Window?

Those screen grabs really look exquisite - one can only hope that these can and will be replicated on disc soon...

In the mean time, please, please more captures!
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#28
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6/30/08 at 10:29am
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Sorry no Rear Window Screencaps, but I was able to find a few more for "Vertigo" and "Family Plot" in 1080p. The detail is incredible, especially in the wallpaper at Ernie's.

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#29
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6/30/08 at 12:53pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

Those are breathtaking. Thanks!

Why the hell hasn't Universal announced a Blu-ray release? This is the 50th anniversary!!!!
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#30
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7/28/08 at 6:31pm
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Re: Does the Vertigo DVD represent the restoration accurately?

First: please pardon my lack of knowledge. I've been spending all of my time in the HD forum for the past couple of years. After a quick search here, and a couple of online retailers, I'm slightly confused about editions of 'Vertigo'.

Mine has a copyright date of 1998, and has an orange cover; it has the 'Obsessed with Vertigo' documentary, and also the commentary track featuring RAH. I didn't find this edition available at online retailers.

However, I see that a new 2-disc SE will be released on 10/7/08, but there are few details about the set. Anybody know what the basic differences are, so far as the transfer, or details about extras?

I'm probably better off aiming at this disc, than holding off for a Blu-ray.
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