The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I would also like to point out that the airing of the final two hour episode was the highest rated show in TV history until the M*A*S*H finale'. So I would hardly classify this show as "obscure". It was an extremely popular show during its network run.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I dont know if the music passages I just mentioned are Rugulo's or not, I am assuming they are. Even if they are not, that music PERFECTLY fit those scenes, and I cant imagine it not being there. Like I said, at least we got season 1.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quite true, and I wasn't trying to make the case that in the 1960's, the series was obscure. Far from it. It dominated its time period and killed off its competition. And yes, the finale was one of the big events in our nation's shared consciousness.

My point is simply that time hasn't been kind to THE FUGITIVE. It has sadly faded out of our collective consciousness to the point where if you do a Google search or just mention that title to a room full of people, most of the hits or responses you'll get relate to the film with Harrison Ford.

There aren't too many FUGITIVE fans who are more into it than me, but I recognize the reality of the situation. This release snafu isn't going to be discussed on the evening news, or even around most dinner tables. It's important to us, those who remember the show for how it made us feel in past airings. The simple fact of life is that many who were there in 1967 watching that finale have passed on. Many are of the generation that still hasn't even embraced DVD (surely we all know of an older person who's not embraced the digital format).

We've heard from Ron Epstein, our host, who admits he's never seen THE FUGITIVE. Have David Lambert or Gord Lacey? How about Parker Clack or the other Admins and moderators here? What about the reviewers that have been a sub-topic of this thread? Have they seen THE FUGITIVE before these DVD releases?

I'm sure there are some new fans that have developed since the DVD releases - some have chimed in to this thread, and that's great. The more, the merrier. It's a fabulous show and one well-deserving of an honored place in our DVD collections. It's CBS/Paramount that have provided the dishonor here, perhaps because they simply knew not what they were doing.

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I don't know any of the posters in this thread, really, nor the owner of the site, as to what's important to them or not important to them. Is Dave Lambert someone who picks on a semi-newbie for stating an opinion? It's what he did, and when offered an explanation of the real meaning of what he said I said, he hasn't been back. Is that usual? Not trying to ruffle feathers, but no one posting about this problem is the villain in this piece.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry,

I'm sort of taken back by your last few posts.

It's intelligent insight into what the situation could very well be.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Thank you, Ron. Sometimes I feel like I'm "posting in the wind". It's nice to know that someone is at least reading it!

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I've been in the entertainment indusrty 20 years; I worked at Paramount as a story analyst for five years. I've never had dealings with their Home Entertainment division, but I still have occasion to visit the studio. Very little shocks me anymore. (Edit: Wait--I take that back. See the first post of this thread).

Granted you're always going to have people who stumbled into what they're doing. My point is that in any given crowd of people, especially in Hollywood, only a percentage lucked into their job (I have to believe that or I will have a nervous breakdown). Odds are someone who worked on this set, indeed more than one, knows exactly where the Fugitive's place in TV history was--and is. That still doesn't mean that they alone had the power to say, "Hey, wait a minute...!" and change the tide of the abomination.

It's exactly this kind of thing that drives people OUT of the biz--sometimes the very people it needs the most. And often that's the true tragedy.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry-N, you're definitely not posting in the wind. I read every one of your posts.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Billy, nobody is the villain here outside of those that took it upon
themselves to ruin things for everyone by sending those atrocious
emails.

I read your initial post and I read Mr. Lambert's response. He went
out of his way to say he wasn't picking on you and gave you a polite
answer.

Your initial post had a couple allegations in it including the fact that
someone would be fired over this and the fact that Paramount's silence
was something to be concerned about.

I don't know how to say this any better, but I think that your
thoughts on this matter are a bit dramatic. Understand that
David, Gord and I talk to studio people all the time and understand
this industry more than most readers here. I think David was
simply trying to bring your high speculations down to level. You
also jumped on him for not responding to you a second time. Could
it just be that David is out with his family this weekend and not
glued to the computer trying to give instantaneous responses?

I don't want you to feel unwelcome here. If I had felt you were
unfairly treated you can trust I would have come out in your defense.
I just think that your analogy of the situation and consequences of
what Paramount did seem to fall into the realm of being "unlikely."

Give the studio some time to consult and come up with an answer.
Things didn't start on the right foot with all the curse-laden emails
that were received. Let the more credible emails make their way up
the ladder and see what happens in the next week. I'm shocked some
of you expected answers overnight. If they are going to do any sort
of exchange or put together an announcement, it takes a bit of time to do.

...and let's not forget how much damage was done over the past few
days for the manner in which the studio was contacted. Would you be
in a hurry to address fans if you were on the receiving end of those emails?

I don't have any of the answers, but as I have reiterated over
and over again, chances are that there is a real situation here that
the studio had to carefully consider. Not excusing them from not being
forthright about what they did, there are those of us that feel that
even if the studio was honest with all of you about this situation,
there would still be fans raking them over the coals.

Billy, I hope you continue to post here on HTF. If you have any problems
don't hesitate to contact me privately via email.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Thanks, Ron. No problems here - just expressing my opinions and thoughts and trying not to actually do anything that will irk anyone. It's a bad situation here, that much we can all agree on.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

What disturbs me the most about this situation is the altering of the end credits in such a way to attempt to hide the fact they were changed and the lack of full disclosure of these changes. In my opinion that smacks of deception in the best case scenario and outright consumer fraud in the worst case.

CBS/Paramount either knew or should have known that these changes would upset their consumers which makes their attempts to hide same all the more troubling. These are not clueless people who produce these releases; undoubtedly the fact that the FUGITIVE got released at all is a testament to the many requests they'd received over the years for this title.

While it is very unfortunate that a handful of individuals sent profane and insulting messages to CBS/Paramount that really does not absolve them from offering a full explanation of the situation. As David (Carabimero) said, the truth is the best way to go. Sometimes the truth hurts but most reasonable people can deal with reality if it is explained in an honest and forthright way.

This is not a perfect analogy, but I think the general point is relevant: if a manufacturer of another product (doesn't matter which kind) were found to have not only not fully disclosed defects/material alterations in that product but also conspired to disguise those defects/material alterations there would an outcry by consumers and consumer advocate groups. Why should a DVD release be any different?

I really hope CBS/Paramount steps up the plate and offers an honest, spin free, accounting of what transpired with this release. It is not an exaggeration to state their reputation in the classic TV DVD market is at stake here. They've done such a wonderful job with so many of their other releases that it makes this situation all the more puzzling.

Finally, a belated welcome to David and Billy and another shout out to Harry that you're definitely not posting to the wind.

Steve

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

We have at least three David's here. You guys can just call me Carab. That'll help a bit.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry,

I always enjoy your posts in every thread they appear in. I have been encouraged by your thoughts about this matter.

I ordered the set on release day from the 20% people and then I stumbled across this thread. I was to late to change my order so I am now waiting for this set to arrive. Not sure that I will send it back as I want to see (hear) what has been done to this myself. I am suprised that this would be done by the company that has been the most consistent in releasing older, vintage shows. I also grew up in the 60's and have very fond memories of many of the sets Paramount has released.

I certainly hope that Gord or David Lambert can uncover the mystery of the missing cues.

Very puzzled and watching this board for answers.

Thanks for the insight and information.

Doug

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Do you really have a need to find more villains?

I'll tell you this: I've watched every episode of The Fugitive as originally aired (here) on television in the sixties, and I still consider the series as one of the best I know and one of my few all-time favourites.

I bought both season 1 DVDs - and I haven't ordered the S2P1 yet. Guess why.

But my disappointment doesn't bring me to jetting around all sorts of wild accusations (apart from the notion im a previous post of mine that Paramount should have been totally open about it) until I know more about the actual backgrounds.

But believe me: I hate this situation probably just as much as you do.


Cees



BTW: David Janssen's name is unmistakably of Dutch origin!
C.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Not really. I think we know who the lone villain is in this little drama, and I wasn't attempting to point fingers or place blames on anyone else here. My questions, of course, were made to illustrate that shows like THE FUGITIVE are really from a by-gone era, and that their fanbase is dwindling as we speak.

My assumption, perhaps erroneous, is that most of the movers and shakers here an on the Internet in general tend to be of a younger age than myself. I'm not asking anyone to reveal their ages, and really I have no way of gauging even an intelligent guess.

But experience elsewhere tells me that it's likely that a lot of people here are in their thirties and forties, really too young to have been conscious of THE FUGITIVE and it's impact on '60's television.

I hadn't considered any foreign showings - erroneously so, I suppose. Television in Europe and around the world is and has been vastly different from our experience in the States, and for all I know has been run constantly all these years!

So if Gord or David Lambert or any other moderators and Admins are reading this, please don't take my questions too seriously or in the wrong way. Ron admitted that he'd never seen THE FUGITIVE and it prompted me to wonder about others.

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry,

No offense taken!
Let me just add this: according to your profile I'm 8 years your senior.
I did see The Fugitive back in the sixties (roughly in the same period as that other favourite of mine: The Virginian).


Cees

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Cees,

I stand corrected, and it demostrates the old saying that when you "assume" you make an "a$$" of "u" and "me".

I've read that THE FUGITIVE was popular in other countries as well as the US and that David Janssen was sought out even when he travelled abroad.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a frame of THE VIRGINIAN. So if it's ever on DVD and has its music replaced, I won't have a clue! All I remember of THE VIRGINIAN is that it was a western (not a favored genre of mine); that it was 90 minutes long, at least at some point in its run; that it aired on NBC; and was a color show, I believe.

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I just commenced my forties, but I'm not claiming I'm representative. I think Harry-N is right-on when he points out that The Fugitive's fan base is dwindling.

But whether it is or not, it's exactly this kind of desecration that prompted Orson Welles to legally ensure movies like Citizen Kane could never be altered. To quote the great Welles. "I [took these extraordinary steps] to keep Ted Turner and his goddammed crayolas away from my movies."

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I'm not up there with Cees (sorry, couldn't resist ), but I'm old enough to have watched The Fugitive during its initial broadcast. The staff of HTF tends to skew somewhat older than much of the internet, a fact that seem to escape a lot of people, judging by some of the correspondence we receive.

M.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Regarding the popularity of THE FUGITIVE worldwide, I already posted this in a previous HTF thread about the series, but it bears repeating. A friend of mine who lives in Hong Kong, but was raised in Germany, told me when she was a kid THE FUGITIVE was known in Germany as the "Street sweeping show." It was because when it aired everyone was inside watching so it became the best time for the street sweepers to do their job!

My brother made a FUGITIVE scrapbook when he was a kid in the 60's, which is great to look at now because it has all sorts of interesting news clippings about the show during its first run broadcast. The article detailing the rumor of a final episode having been filmed and in the vault which reveals Gerard as the actual killer is fascinating. Anyway, there is a short piece that ran in a newspaper at the time which mentioned a bullfight David Janssen attended in Mexico. According to the article he was recognized immediately and the entire arena began chanting: "El fugitivo! El fugitivo! El fugitivo!"

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Lots of people do remember The Fugitive, though. In my opinion, the immediate (initial) success of the 1963 Harrison Ford / Tommy Lee Jones movie was based on that recognition.

The Virginian, The Fugitive, Maverick, Alias Smith and Jones (and several more) all have one name in common: Roy Huggins.


Cees

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Note about the PQ for the episode "Cry Uncle".........

It was revealed in the early reviews for this Fuge S2, V1 DVD that one episode among the 15 in this set ("Cry Uncle", featuring Ronny Howard and Edward Binns) was a subpar episode, PQ-wise.

I watched the episode on the DVD yesterday and can report that only a fairly-small portion of the whole episode is affected by the subpar video quality. The only part of the show that is affected by the problem is Act II. None of the other "Acts", or the epilogue, are affected at all. Except for a few minutes during Act II (where we see some white lines and dots on the screen), the rest of the episode is just as clean and perfect-looking as the other shows in this set (which is very good indeed).

It's just too bad that the music doesn't match the "perfect" status of the video within this set. It's kind of sad to see all this great-looking video being attached to music that doesn't belong in there at all.

On episodes that I haven't seen in a long time (or the ones I don't have on VHS tape), the altered music doesn't have quite as much of a negative impact, because I haven't memorized where the Peter Rugolo cues should go within the show. And perhaps other Fugitive fans agree with me on this point too.

One example being the excellent S2 episode "The Iron Maiden", with Nan Martin as a congresswoman trapped with Dr. Kimble below ground in a missile-silo shaft. (Martin also appeared in one of the best Fugitive eps. from Season 1 too -- "Search In A Windy City".)

I've seen that "Iron Maiden" episode once or twice previously, but I missed taping it onto VHS in the 90s off of A&E, and therefore the episode wasn't ruined completely by the new music that has been inserted by CBS for this DVD set.

But I still kept saying to myself while watching the episode -- "I wonder what Rugolo music really should have been there....and there....and there?"

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I saw both The Fugitive and Maverick remakes in theaters. They are in my opinion, the best big-screen adaptations of a "classic" television series, and a great companion to their original source. I have seen both series, and it was a testament that these films really honored them. Had they never been made and been successful (and there's even talk of a possible sequel to "Maverick", which would be great to see if everyone is involved), these would probably fallen into somewhat obscurity. They raised the public awareness of these classics even further, unlike the dreaded "Wild Wild West" remake. Because of the success of "The Fugitive" remake, U.S. Marshals was made (with most of the cast returning minus Harrison Ford) though it's not my favorite film.

Here's another influence of the popularity of "The Fugitive": USA Network's hit series, "Monk", ended its sixth season with a nod to this series and it became the highest-rated episode in the show's history. It was an excellent and well-written two-part episode. It was not a spoof or mocking in any way. It fitted the show and at the same time honored a classic that came before.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Well, as one of the doubtlessly youngest fans of this classic TV series (having turned 42 yesterday), I must admit that I was not yet born when this series began its glorious run back in 1963. In fact, the only first-hand season I can claim in my immediate lifetime is the color season of 1966-7, the series' last.

In fact, I was only a year old when The Judgment originally aired on August 22-29, 1967.

And although I had always known of The Fugitive throughout my entire life, it was the Harrison Ford 1993 film which prompted me to check out the original series itself. (It was a stronlgy subconscious decision on my part--as if this series was one I felt I had to have liked that one final year. You never know.)

Once I did, beginning with "Fear In A Desert City" on a VHS tape, I was hooked instantly.

From there, I purchased the Ed Robertson The Fugitive Recaptured book, bought out the entire NuVentures Video VHS collection (all 20 volumes), bought The Judgment separately and taped the episodes from TV syndication I did not previously own on the NuVentures VHS tapes. In total, I managed to get all but eight of the 120 episodes on tape.

I have been as passionate about very few television series in my life. The Fugitive is one of those series. I know I am so much younger than many of the true fans of this series who witnessed it all first hand--and maybe the youngest Fuge fan here for all I know. And, as a woman of color who saw imagery of herself in the likes of Ruby Dee, Diana Sands and Janet MacLachlan during this series, a rather most unusual fan at that.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Joseph, I would just like to put this in perspective (and also answer a separate question posted later by Harry-N, about whether I have ever seen this show). When the M*A*S*H finale ran in 1983, I was graduating high school. When the finale of The Fugitive ran in 1967, it was on my 2nd birthday. Reruns never ran in any market I lived in, at least not to my knowledge. I never had other access to the show, either (unlike the similarly-aged Tina, who posted just ahead of me here). So I've never watched a single episode of the show. I've known about it, naturally, as part of pop culture. I even knew enough about it to recognize (on my own, as a 12-year old!) that the Bill Bixby version of Incredible Hulk drew many elements from the show.

But still, that knowledge is obviously not the same as experiencing the show itself! By the time I came of age, it was part of pop culture still...but, as Harry points out, the show's fame had faded by then, and has faded much more since. I agree that most people these days know the Harrison Ford film, and even that has faded more and more from popular memory. The Tim Daly version from 2000 is barely remembered; connecting the star of Wings and Private Practice just draws stares. More people know Daly's work voicing Clark Kent/Superman on Superman: The Animated Series! No, time has not been kind to The Fugitive. My wife, 11 years younger than me, knows very little about the show, and folks younger than her are even more in the dark. Cees mentions in a later post that "Lots of people do remember The Fugitive, though." I think more the name and "legend" of the show, though, than actual details. The Harrison Ford film probably owes more of it's success to having Indy Jones/Han Solo in it, at least where younger people were involved. The show's certainly not as big as it once was, and it's overall ranking among voters at TVShowsOnDVD certainly isn't as high as I would hope or expect.

I am fairly certain that this has somehow had a bearing on the way this DVD release was handled, but I have no solid background with which to put the puzzle pieces together and see how they fit.

As far as Gord goes, let's just say I'm the older of us (by a decent enough margin), and he defers to me on "classic TV".

Do I have the DVDs of The Fugitive? Yes, I have Season 1, Vol. 1 in my possession. As you can imagine from a DVD junkie like me, I have an obscene amount of unwatched discs. These are among them, I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry, mainly because of this situation, and I had to be behind the curve here. But it's right on top of unwatched sets in the pile for things like Two and a Half Men, and the second season of Saturday Night Live. I'm not playing favorites here: I just try to get to everything as soon as I can. I've recently been catching up on Wings, actually. What's next? I dunno yet. My wife's bugging me to catch up with the 2nd and 3rd seasons of Drawn Together. I've got tons of Doctor Who I haven't watched yet, and I *LOVE* the Doctor. Then the new CHiPs came in. Ugghh...



Billy, it's a combination of things, including what Ron says about my spending time elsewhere this weekend (including posting more lots news at TVShowsOnDVD.com, and relaying some of it at TVGuide.com, as well as spending time with my family, and most of today and my in-laws). Ron, thank you for speaking up on my behalf. I also join you in saying that I hope Billy continues to post here on the HTF. In my earliest days here, I was sometimes an absolute ass, and Ron always called me on it. I hope that I'm better these days!

"...he hasn't been back. Is that usual?" Er...yeah, that part is usual. I don't spend as much time on HTF as I used to in years past, and I don't post as often. My post count has gone up significantly in the past couple of weeks because of certain conversations, including this one, but I expect this trend won't last too long and will go back down fairly soon. Sorry, all...I just keep too busy elsewhere!

Most importantly, though, I felt that your explanation didn't really REQUIRE additional response from me. You said "Thanks for the welcome" and gave your explanation. You didn't really ask me to reply just to say I understood it or anything. For the record, I did. I did not think you would be upset if I just moved along. Sorry if that's the case.



Harry, Ron's not the only one who feels that way. What he said goes ditto for me. Thanks for the analysis. And no, I didn't take any offense. For the record, I turn 43 in August (which saves folks from doing the math I indicated above! ).



Just to be clear on that, and to give credit where it's due (should there be success, anyway), it's all Gord. Between the two of us, he's the one with the best contacts at the major studios, and most of the minors. My main contacts are with the "anonymous industry sources" (spies), but they are mostly in the retail world and not at the studios. I regret to say that I have no contacts who can help me with this particular matter.



I think you speak for all of us, Cees. I haven't found ANYONE saying that this is a good situation. People are just reacting on different levels. The disagreement really seems to actually be about people who react in one manner, and getting upset because others aren't reacting the exact same way they are!

That goes both ways, by the way: I'm just as guilty for thinking that everyone ought to react the same "rational"-ish way I have. Naturally, everybody reacts according to their experiences and personalities. There needs to be tolerance and understanding of that. But I think we can also agree that some have taken their chosen methods too far, though. 'Nuff said about that.



Sorry for the long post, just wanted to give my own responses, thoughts and analysis about these parts of the discussions. Please, don't take offense if I "disappear" again...it's fairly normal for me, as longtime HTFers will attest!

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry, my skin has grown very, very thick since starting TVShowsOnDVD.com. I've been told where to go, and gotten a death threat if I didn't release a show on DVD, and that's just from today!

But to answer your question, no, I didn't have a chance to see the show when it first aired - I'm 30 - but I know I've caught some episodes on TV (did A&E air the show?).

Gord

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Well, I've signed and mailed three letters (one to Paramount and two to CBS) and bought and returned three sets.

And I'm still pissed.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Gord, yes, A&E aired the show in the early 90s and that, apparently, is going to be the bulk of my FUGITIVE library as far as seasons 2-4 are concerned. When I got married my wife suggested we lose my 1200 VHS tapes so I transferred all my FUGITIVES to DVD and WOULD HAVE THROWN THEM AWAY if not for the minor drops changed in the season 1 sets.

Really glad I didn't throw them away now. In fact, I watched MAN IN A CHARIOT off my own set this morning to try and get the bad taste out of my mouth (and ears).

Those recordings have sustained me for nearly 20 years. I guess they can do me for another 20, if need be.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Moving away from the "music" issues for a moment.......

Here's an interesting "gaffe" (if you please) in the S2 Fugitive episode "Escape Into Black" (another very good ep. co-starring Betty Garrett and Ivan Dixon):


Warning Spoiler! Click to show

A great episode anyway, despite the above lapse of logic.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yes, the real villians are the people who sent those emails. If it weren't for those emails we would all be loving the new music score and enjoying these DVD's. Damn those emails! I also agree that we need to give the studio more time to respond. Let's all check back in a few years and I'm sure the studio will have come up with something. See you then.