The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yes excessive greed and avarice can lead to zero profit, Like william holden grandson son ask insane royalty amounts to release some fan favorite movies produced buy william holdens production company no dvd release = zero $. But if CBS was force to rescore the fugitive due to un realistic royalty demands then SAY SO, be honest and open instead of hoping a Stealth music score change wont noticed which was stupid because on major reason fans love the show was excellent drama enhancing music score for the fugitive, again it gets back to the incredibly stupid decisions corporations make daily , when a little honest would have went a long long way.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

And, of course, every bit of the jukebox music in Act 4 of the episode "World's End" has been completely changed as well. Every last note.

The alterations just never end.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I respect the opinions of the people on this forum (especially you, Carabimero, since as far as I can tell you're the citizen journalist who broke this story). For anyone who's interested, I've addressed the suggestion that I took that quote out of context in a comment appended to my original post.

I wouldn't take it for granted that the "Route 66" botch was an error; I forget exactly what Infinity said in their response to it, but 15 hours of telecine in the wrong aspect ratio without anyone noticing is pretty hard to swallow. It seems much more likely it was a conscious decision on someone's part.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I can't see how there can be ANY doubt to this allegation that it was a deliberate measure. It smacks of someone's having a misguided brainstorm in how to make the show more "relevant" and therefore marketable to today's supposedly clueless audiences, no doubt perpetrated by one as equally clueless with regards to what this series even was.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Let's face it if they had a good excuse for changing the music we would have heard it by now. This has nothing to do with anybody writing rude emails. They weren't talking before the emails and they aren't talking now. The truth is they don't care about you or your business. Don't buy the set!

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

And here are still more music edits (to raise the level of silliness regarding this pathetic "Fuge S2, V1" DVD release to near-Olympic heights):

In Act 3 of "Man In A Chariot", all of the music playing in the background in the restaurant/bar (where "Kimble" and "Gould" were having a beer) has been completely changed.

It would appear that CBS decided to arbitrarily change every last note of all the music within every episode, including every note of "jukebox"-type music heard throughout the various shows as well.

Makes me wonder if they even tried to acquire any music rights for any of the music in this set--period. What are the odds that NONE of it could be obtained? Pretty low, I would surmise.

They re-scored the Rugolo stuff...so they probably (at the same time) decided they could save a few more dollars in music fees by re-doing all of the jukebox-in-restaurants music too.

After all, since they had the monster-sized gonads to re-score the guts of each and every last show (while hiding behind the exact same tiny "Some Music Has Been Changed" disclaimer that adorns the first-season sets), CBS no doubt figured: Who's gonna notice a few more background snippets?

That's just a guess on my part. And I could be dead-wrong. But the replacement of still MORE music in this set is just one more reason to toss these DVDs straight into the trash dumpster where they certainly belong.

It's pathetic.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Mr. Bowie, thanks for mentioning that I may have broken the story. I appreciate that very much.

I found your update. I respect that you clarified your position.

Your article was thorough and I was impressed by your access to Armer.

Let me rephrase my Route 66 comment: tampering with a telecine, as I understand it, is a more robotic matter than expunging and rescoring half a season of a classic TV show, even in reverse. Plus, I'm not sure it follows that the actions of one studio will follow another.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

But if the show ever gets a tv airring someplace again will we get THESE or the ORIGINAL Versions?

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

My guess is we would see the originals.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Familiar/popular songs playing on jukeboxes (or radios) rarely survive a DVD release.

As I mentioned in my Post #155, popular songs like "I'll Remember April" needle-dropped in six Fugitive episodes or "I'll Never Smile Again" in five Fugitive episodes command the largest royalties (if publishing rights had been granted). It's no surprise they were 86'd.

We'll see if the song "Once Upon A Time" (made popular by Bobby Darin and Frank Sinatra) survives the transition from TV to DVD this September on Season 4 Episode 13 of BOSTON LEGAL. It's a pivotal element in a romantic plot and sung by Scot Bakula at the piano. I would not be surprised if David E. Kelley didn't take DVD song rights into consideration when he included it on the televised show, unfortunately.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yeah, I actually got a region free player so I could buy the Ally McBeal DVD series set for my wife due to these very issues.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

OK THIS makes my eyebrows go up.

It would be one thing if they couldn't get the rights to a few songs and had to replace them.

It would be one thing if they couldn't track down who had the rights and had to replace the background score.

But this?

I may get in trouble, but if it barks like a dog, walks like a dog and smells like a dog, it's probably a dog.

I am going to make a radical proposition:

Paramount deliberately changed every note of music to ensure they would not have to pay royalties to ANYBODY.

Sure, costs a little to rescore, but saves buckets in not having to pay artists for their work.

If this supposition is true, no wonder Paramount isn't saying a word. They've basically gotten caught trying to do an end zone run around both the artists and the consumers. No wonder they're quieter than a clam.

Again, if true, this truly is a low in TV to DVD releases and they really should be embarassed.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yeah, you would think if they had a rational, defensible position, they'd state it.

A fish does rot from the head.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

...

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I admire you in a way, DVP, because you can sit there and watch it. The only reason I made it through MAN IN A CHARIOT was that my wife was watching it with me. After I spot checked the other three episodes and stopped breathing, I couldn't stand it anymore. It was physically painful.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I have read this entire thread and like most I am very disappointed on the music changes done.

I have noted that people like Paul Mavis, Mr. Epstein and a few others have commented that this is not surprising , is common place in today’s world and despite that, the show is still worth the purchase even without the original music. That’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That can be debated. Personally I disagree but that’s fine.

There are 2 issues that I would like to mention though. (And yes they have been mentioned before but I want to really elaborate on and emphasize the second one.

1. If its rights issues, WHY was season one released with the original score and is still available? Season 1 and 2 have the SAME music. Makes no sense to me.


2. This CANNOT be debated and is the worst part of it all (I challenge anyone to do so) :

CBS is obviously guilty of delibrity trying to deceive people by adding "new credits" with new people that were hired to replace the music. And its in the ORIGINAL style of the show no less, all in an attempt to fool us and "pretend" that those people were involved in the show back in the 60s. That’s like someone erroneously adding new pictures of themselves to my old high school yearbook and saying "HEY I WAS THERE TOO!!"

THAT is inexcusable. Why not add a new modern credit sequence? Answer: They don’t want us to know.

A company is deliberately and fragrantly trying to deceive us. That’s is wrong, unprofessional and shows a total lack of industry integrity. So tell me. How can ANYONE give positive reviews to a company that is INTENTIONALLY trying to deceive its buyers.? Heck , even if you LIKE the new music, Even if you think the show is still worth watching despite the missing score, or even if you accept and concede "rights issues" as a valid reason, the INTENT and the manner that this was released is still dishonest and deceitful. I'm not saying that ALL of CBS/Paramount is to blame. But thats they way they come across.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I feel the same way, but I'm willing to wait to see what CBS/Paramount has to say. The preponderance of evidence suggests they were trying to hide something, which might mean they could have gone a different way and included the original music. But how could they change it all and think no one would notice? True, no advance reviewer did at first, but I think that was only because what Paramount perpetrated was so outlandish that no one could conceive it. Some people even refused to believe it when told.

I can't be objective because my heart wants to believe that someone credible will come out and say a series of rash decisions were made, we took a direction that wasn't mandatory, we're sorry, and we're going to work on fixing it.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

It's not easy though. I just got my set yesterday (June 13). Apparently Amazon strapped my copy to the back a of a blind mule and the poor animal was forced to take the back, dirt roads to get to my local post office, because it took an extra-long time to arrive. (Not that I was anxious to get this particular release after hearing about the music changes, mind you.)

I will say this, though, about the new music insertions -- For a 2008 complete re-scoring of a 1960s TV series, the changes aren't quite as bad as I had anticipated initially. At least CBS tried to simulate the original Rugolo score. But it's just not the same. It's just not "The [Complete] Fugitive". Simple as that.

Another thought I had about the changes -- I imagine that CBS didn't really want to get too close to the original Fuge music, because if they copied it note-for-note, that too would be violating the music copyrights, I assume. So they made the music somewhat similar in tone, but not too close. But some of the cues are quite loud...too loud IMO, and a bit grating.

Also.....

An earlier post said that "jukebox" music rarely survives a DVD release. But I'm not sure that's entirely accurate...at least from my experience (although I don't own nearly as many TV/DVD sets as some here, I'm sure).

But take another Paramount property, for example -- "Andy Griffith". I believe there are many scenes within that 8-season series (released on DVD from 2004 to 2006) that have "juke" music in them ("The Diner" scenes, etc.), and I think the original music is included. If that music was changed, it sneaked past me, because I have yet to notice any obvious changes there.

And "Dick Van Dyke" and "I Love Lucy" don't have any cuts of that nature either, AFAIK. If there are any, they are certainly small in number.

I suppose a lot of these subtle "in the background" changes just simply go unnoticed by most DVD buyers....which is probably what the DVD companies are hoping for.

"Man In A Chariot" Footnote.....

"Chariot" was mentioned above....it's a terrific episode of "The Fugitive", but its enjoyment level is significantly reduced as a result of the new music that accompanies the show, particularly during the emotional speech given by Ed Begley ("G. Stanley Lazer") in Act IV.

To quote Lazer directly, the music alterations "cut deep into [my] very soul".

(Think I'm being a little melodramatic there? Yeah, you're right. I am. Sorry. I just wanted to quote G. Stanley.)

I wish Gregg Oppenheimer had been a part of the production team for the "Fugitive" DVDs. It seems that he has the clout to pull strings and get stuff corrected on DVD releases. Wasn't he instrumental in getting some stuff corrected for the "Lucy" Season 4 DVD? And that was a Paramount product.

Somebody call Gregg....quick!

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I have to admit Im not the world hugest fan of the Fugitive, I can imagine the anger hard core fugitive fans are suffering. For me I would be pissed out of my mind if CBS striped out Lalo Shifrens scores on Mission Impossible or Mannix or Hawaii Five-0 opening theme music, which for all these shows had signature scores that Identified and set the moods for the shows. And to be honest CBS could still land in hot legal water if there sole purpose for the rescore was copyright payment avoidance (score issues is one of things that held up the release of WWW tv series for years), because the artist who wrote the original scores could claim their copyright comes from the show it self which they were payed for originally and have the right to be re payed on the released of dvd sets that cbs profits from . Example some rap stars were claiming they did not need to pay royalties to original artist if they on sample a few cords of a song and didn't cover the whole song, which they lost. And the end of the this whole mess come under the filing of the moronic things cooperations do and think there slick as grease when in reality there dumber than a 50lbs sack of cow dun.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

From a technical standpoint, I'm actually somewhat in awe that the entire score *could* be changed. I would have figured that the marriage of the music track and the dialog track happened a long time ago and that those individual elements would have long ago disappeared.

My thinking tends to be in terms of recorded music. Once a mixdown master is made, original tracks of music have been known to disappear, making any future attempts at remixing impossible. Think "She Loves You" by The Beatles, arguably one of their biggest early hits, from a band and studio that normally saved almost everything recorded. The hit recording, full of edits and fly-ins from alternate takes, is all that survives today, so that even attempting a new stereo mix is practically impossible.

Perhaps I'm naive when it comes to film elements - I have little or no experience in that regard - but the mere fact that TBTB still have access to all of the dialog-only tracks and could easily replace the music track with something else comes as a bit of a marvel to me. Not that I approve of it, but it *is* somewhat clever.

In my naivete, I wonder if this technical marvel is where the whole idea even sprouted. We've all seen the many DVDs where the music issue rears its ugly head. Sometimes an ugly edit occurs; other times the replacement is more seamless, at least technically. I refer to the infamous QUANTUM LEAP episode "M.I.A.", one of the most aggregious of music replacements, where "Georgia On My Mind" disappears and is replaced by a non-song.

That one, at least technically, I can understand. QUANTUM LEAP at least sprouted from the era of stereo soundtracks, making the likelihood of separate channels available to switch it out, a reality.

But THE FUGITIVE stems from an era of monaural recording. Even the recordings of the Rugolo underscore are all in mono. That all makes sense as television programs in the entire '60s decade all emanated from a single oval-shaped speaker housed in the cabinet with the picture tube.

So I look at these altered episodes, and scratch my head in wonderment at how in the world this was even accomplished. Then the brain begins to wander and envisions a big board-room meeting. Executives are sitting and plotting out strategies. One of them reports that they've made a technical breakthrough and can replace all music within a TV show. The head executive then declares this to be the future of the business. No more will the music rights issue be in the way. "Just replace it all - *That* will teach 'em", as they all adjourn for lunch.

Somewhere, somehow, this new strategy has to have a beginning place. Not on Season 4 of MISSION IMPOSSIBLE, not on the first INVADERS release, not the long-awaited and newspaper article-driven release of Season One of MANNIX. "No, we'll start it on THE FUGITIVE, Season Two. It's just an old black and white show. No-one will even notice or care. Call Mark Heyes; congratulate him on his new scores, and invite him for lunch."

Now the backlash has occured, and I envision the same board-room with most of the same executives, coming up with ideas on how to cover their tracks. How to deal with an angry hoard of consumers spreading the word that their plan has backfired.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is what I think about as I'm watching these episodes, instead of marvelling at how well the episode is done or how beautiful Suzanne Pleshette or Lois Nettleton was.

Harry
...spewing random thoughts, onlilne...

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Woah! Stop right there. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

While it is true I stated that it is not surprising that studios are
releasing titles with music changes when faced with legal problems,
I never said that it was still worth purchasing the show even with
these changes.

I think I have been very supportive of the fans in this thread. I sympathize
with all of you with what has been done here.

And for the record, I have never seen The Fugitive so I can't say
I am a fan of the show. However, if a studio did release one of my
favorite TV shows on DVD, and as a diehard fan I bought that DVD and
found out material had been changed this significantly without prior
announcement, I would be fuming as well.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry,

Since the DVDs for "The Fugitive" were "transferred from the original negative" (per the DVD packaging), wouldn't that make it just that much easier to strip out a portion of the separate audio track(s) before transferring it to DVD?

The audio surely isn't part of the video "negative" of a filmed presentation. The audio must be layered in if the original negatives were used (like here), correct? They'd need to layer in the dialogue audio track and a separate audio track with the background music, right?

So, I guess CBS just simply bypassed the music audio tracks (which surely still exist for these episodes) and replaced them with a CBS audio creation instead.

If CBS had not used the original negatives, I would think it would, indeed, have been much more difficult to completely strip away all of the background music.

Am I right? Or is my total ignorance in this regard showing through?

Anyway...just a thought.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

As I said, I come from more of an audio background, working just with sound. I've been in and around the radio business for most of my adult life, and have a large collection of records, tapes, CDs, etc. So when i exhibit my ignorance on matters of film, understand that it comes from total inexperience in that medium.

What I know of film and sound is that I recall once looking at a piece of movie film and seeing a squiggly line off to one side and someone telling me that that's where the sound track was.

Are film and television soundtracks (the masters, now), stored on magnetic tape (or today on digital media)?

If I were to go into a vault and decided to make a new print of THE FUGITIVE, would I first find a piece of silent film in its negative state? And then would I have to find another can of material for the sound to somehow merge it with and synch it up to the film? Would there be multiple, seperate tracks on that material (tape?)? Would there be just two tracks: one for dialog, one for effects and music? Or would there be three: one dialog, one music, and one effects? Or does this vary by title?

Forgive me if these are questions that everyone knows the answers to but me, but having never been exposed to visual media from an "inside baseball" perspective, I just don't know. I can find my way around an audio board and mix audio tracks in mono, stereo, and or 5.1 till the cows come home, but throw in visual stuff, and I guess you could call me a vidiot!

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

At the risk of sharpening this jukebox/radio music to too fine a point, I spent 40 years programming a "Beautiful Music" radio station. Humbly, I could probably win "Name That Tune" in a dentist's office (or elevator). However, I don't pretend to have even the slightest clue why THE FUGITIVE score vanished. Permit me to offer a half-ounce of insight from personal experience.

When we wanted to use a particular song for a particular broadcast purpose, we had three obstacles (in this order) if the material was not covered by our blanket BMI or ASCAP licensing agreements:

1. Permission from the composer/original publisher (without that, any form of the song is dead)...

2. Permission from the lyricist (again, DOA without it)...

3. Permission from the artist whose recording we wanted to use (without his or her permission, the instrumental version of the song would be used).

This last hurdle is what puzzles me as to why MARRIED WITH CHILDREN didn't replace Frank $inatra's recording with the instrumental version of "Love & Marriage." Could somebody enlighten me? Briefly, so as not to hijack this thread.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I totally agree that the "credits" scheme casts a credibility cloud over the handling of this release.

Here's a another debate: why would these "musicians" NEED to be credited? Yeah, yeah, I know they WANT credit. But why not just credit the theme to Rugolo and buy these musicians off. Or get hungrier musicians with less ego.

With regard to using the exact font style...

I collect antique cars. If I replace a part on a Ford "A" with a non-factory part, I'm obligated to document that it's a remanufactured part...not an original...for a future owner, or potential buyer. It can dramatically change the value of the car.

Where's the disclaimer, as Paul Pro points out, to let future (or less knowledgeable contemporary) viewers know that these "musicians" were not part of the original team? There is none. Was the purpose to mislead? No matter; the result misleads.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

David, I hear that I bought an R-Free a couple of years ago & it's the best home ent purchase I've made.

The first thing I did, when the infamous S2V1 news broke here, was to check Amazon UK to see if the Fugitive has seen any R2 releases. No luck there. If the S2V1 (and subsequent series releases, if any) aren't restored with the original soundtrack, I can hope that, as has been the case with several other series, the Fuge will start getting released in R2/4 land with the orignal music intact. Such has been the case with some other shows, as you mentioned with the "Ally" releases.

Ok, after some (perhaps not enough? ) thought, I'm going to put this one out on the "Fugitive" table for you all here. I'm interested in what most here will do regarding the S2V1 and future, if any, CBS/P releases of this series.

I posted the following at another site this morning and want the HTF'ers feedback on the question ("to buy or not to buy")


Bear in mind that although I'm not part of the majority here (Fuge veteran fans), I'm a "convert" having been completely hooked on what's arguably the best drama that's aired over U.S. airways on TV.

Don't get me wrong here; I think what happeend to this release is a tragedy. I can only imagine what I'd have gone through if, say, my all-time 60's show "Combat!" had been released by Image with the entire soundtrack (by Leonard Rosenmann) gone. So I do have empathy with the Fuge Fanatics out there, But if no one buys this release, what will happen to the rest of the DVD releases? As Gary would say, "just my 2-cents"

Just speaking for myself but it's very hard for me to pass on those pristine transfers with the Fugitive releases. I realize that most of us here have...uh..."other means", to view the show. I guess it comes down to what's "liveable" for the individual. For me, watching this show for the 1st time with amazing picture Q is a hard one to toss for alternatives, albeit with the original music.

- Jeff W.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Jeff,

As a musicologist, music--all genres, periods, and styles--matters more to me than most. So does the artistic integrity and intent of those who composed it and, in the case of film and television, those who created and directed it. I will not be purchasing the show in its current form.

I am not a fanatic about The Fugitive (yet), but I can easily seem how some might be. If we were talking about shows that I am fanatical about (e.g., Dark Shadows, The Outer Limits, and TOS), and the music were changed or omitted to the extent that it has been for The Fugitive, I would continue to watch these shows on VHS tape (assuming there were no alterations to the originals) and refuse to view (let alone purchase) the show in its currently released iteration.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Jeff,

Though I wouldn't suggest that anyone buy this release - CBS/Paramount needs to feel the hurt in the bottom line - in your case I might suggest that you go ahead. Perhaps go the "used" or eBay route - that way at least you'll feel that *your* money didn't get to CBS' hands directly.

A non-fanatic like yourself will probably be able to enjoy the visually great transfers of this release, and while the music might stand out a little as out of place, there won't be as many of those moments for you, perhaps.

I bought the set after I had knowledge of the music replacement. Check the start of the thread and you'll see my early "Uh-oh" reply, plus some "doubting" posts before I went out and bought it.

The reason I did that is probably born out of curiosity, and one could liken it to not being able to turn away from a trainwreck. If someone had defaced one of my favorite shows, then by golly, I just had to have a look at it for myself, if only out of curiosity.

Will I buy more if the rest are similarly defaced? Probably not. But I will keep this one as a reminder of the evil that men can do.

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I have returned S2V1, so a second viewing is gone...but I was curious if you (or others) thought the music was mixed so loudly that it overpowered William Conrad's closing epilogue at the end of some of the shows? Maybe I was too focused on the music while auditioning S2V1, but replaying S1V1 and V2 confirms Conrad's monologue is db's above the music.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

At the risk of being too simplistic or too pedestrian, here's the basic loss for me with the new music...

We no longer hear the "signature" four notes. The theme's first four notes were composed to simulate "The-Fu-gi-tive." It was like a security blanket to hang onto during each episode's tender moments and tense moments.

To me, it's like changing the notes of the N-B-C Chimes from G-E-C to some other three notes.