Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

For the past few months I have been hearing about software
technology that Toshiba claims will take an ordinary DVD and
upscale it to the exact standards of a Blu-ray disc.

Now what I just posted above is basically the way it was
described to me. My first thoughts were that with the limited
bandwidth of a standard DVD there is no way you can upscale
it to the point where you will get the sharpness, film-like quality
and (most important) color depth that you get with Blu-ray.

Well, today one of our readers sent me this article which pretty
much resurfaces the rumor that Toshiba is introducing a "Blu-ray killer."

Here's a bit of the article....


Anytime a company claims something like this it can only mean
another format war...that is, if their claim is true.


The question is, how comparable? It seems that it is being suggested
that video quality will be equal to that of Blu-ray.


My thoughts are this....

If Toshiba can do the seemingly impossible and come out with a
cheap player whose software can upconvert a standard DVD to the
precise picture quality of a Blu-ray disc, then I can see this possibly
being a "Blu-ray" killer......except for one important issue....

The one thing this article doesn't talk about is audio specs. Is this hardware
going to provide the type of lossless audio found on Blu-ray discs? Not from
a standard DVD it won't! Will this matter to a general public who seem to prefer
MP3 downloads over CD quality? Perhaps not.

This is something we will be keeping a close eye on.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I give this zero chance of going anywhere, because there are only two possibilities:

1. It upscales existing DVDs, and there is simply no way to add back resolution that isn't there in the first place.
2. It uses some new form of disc, and there is no way consumers are going to embrace yet another format at this late date in the game.

Sorry, Tosh, but the ship has sailed -- and sunk.

M.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I completely agree.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

So do I.

With all that was said.

(1) It's possible to create beautiful images out of some DVD, with a quality previously unheard of, but it's not possible to "find" resolution and colour details that simply aren't there. So a Blu-ray disc can always have more detail than even a cleverly upconverted SDVD (with usual images on it - not just pure black or white surfaces ) can.

(2) The DVD specs don't have room for the new lossless audio tracks.

Even if this news is true, I don't know what that app will kill, but certainly not my appetite for real high-def images as offered by Blu-ray.


Cees

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

It will only affect video. It will interesting to check out at CEDIA. As I understand it they will license the technology to other companies. If it really is that good of a chip it would be great to see in TVs and AV receivers.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I agree with the current concensus. Not only will lossless audio be absent, in most liklihood so will pop-up menus [a feature I have come to really enjoy] and PIP. Not to get political, but Toshiba is starting to resemble Hillary Clinton. There's a time to fight on, and also a time to accept defeat graciously.

John

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

John,

The political analogy was not necessary. I understand what you were
trying to say, but I wish you did it without going there.

Listen....

I think this Toshiba player is more dangerous than you may think.

The general public is still not sold on Blu-ray. If you introduce
a player that can produce picture quality that rivals BD, at a
cheaper price, it could be a "Blu-ray killer" of sorts.

The general public is not going to readily embrace Blu-ray if
they can buy a cheaper player that takes the DVDs they already
own and bring it up to new extraordinary quality levels.

Heck, I'll run out and buy Toshiba's player for that purpose. DAY ONE!

The public doesn't care about the audio as much as we do.
As I have mentioned, people are happier downloading 128 bitrate
MP3s rather than buying better quality audio on CD. The audio
that DVDs provide is pretty damn good for the common viewer.

At this point, with Blu-ray being as expensive as it is, the
public isn't looking to replace the large libraries of DVDs in their
homes. They would probably rush to stores if a cheaper
alternative allowed them to further upconvert their libraries
to HD quality.

We already hear the common people say, "Why do I need Blu-ray
when I have a player that upconverts my DVDs?" Can you imagine
what this new player is going to do for those individuals?

On the plus side, this new Toshiba entry will force Blu-ray to
lower their prices on hardware and software which at this point,
they are in no hurry to do.

I really don't blame Toshiba for doing what they are doing. They
have technology that will make standard DVDs look remarkably
comparable to Blu-ray. Why would anyone not want something like
this in their home?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I agree and I won't support this player because it adds confusion to the HT marketplace and will hurt the adoption of HDM.






Crawdaddy

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

The general public is just starting to become aware of Blu-ray and I bet a good percentage of them still don't know about Blu-ray because of all the created by the format war and these upconverting dvd players that many novices confused with being HD players.

I do blame Toshiba and they can go to hell.







Crawdaddy

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If it could be done with videotape..Beta..Super Beta..EDBeta...VHS..SVHS...8MM..Hi8....it certainly could accomplished within the digital realm. Anyone remember Laserdisc with line doublers and quadruplers?

The thing that would hinder what is being speculated about is that damn HDMI handicap.

Look, I like balls numbing bass and all as much as anyone. But frankly, AC3/DTS on current DVD's sounds fine to me. And when I have been able to watch an upconverted DVD I am impressed. If Toshiba can accomplish this, I am all for it.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

The biggest reason something like this will fail IMO...cause once again they seem to be going it alone. How can they possibly think they can be the only one to effect this kind of change. Also IMO, Tosh makes some great stuff, but the DVD players, and even their HD players lacked some serious ergonomics! They look cheap, they feel cheap, and they are cheap. Sure, the average Joe loves cheap tech, but the average Joe wont even know this is different from a DVD player.
If Tosh markets this wrong, and if they lie about what it can do, watch out for lawsuits. You cant claim for instance that a DVD played on a Tosh player will have 6 times the resolution, same as Blu-ray, but from a standard DVD. Cause it wont, and it never can. So how would they market it?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Rick,

One of the counter arguments I have to your post is that this
can very well not fail because it is not another HD format going
head-to-head with Blu-ray.

Toshiba can do this alone because, unlike HD-DVD, they need no
studio support nor that of any hardware manufacturers. Simply put,
they will have technology that takes a standard DVD and makes it
look comparable to HD.

Listen, none of us have seen this technology in action. We hope to
see it for ourselves in September or sooner. However, rumor of this
technology has been out there for at least a year. I have been hearing
about this Toshiba player for quite some time. Yes, it's hard to believe,
but apparently Toshiba is confident enough about it to keep touting that
it will make a significant impact in the market.

Until any of us actually sees this product nobody has a valid argument
about how much it will affect the Blu-ray format.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Didn't they already try this line of salesmanship with their HD DVD machines? And look where that got them.

Every weekend I open a Best Buy circular and see ads for upconverting players. How is Toshiba going to distinguish this new player from something that's already been on the market for a long time? How are they going to make it sound like something new?

"Almost as good as Blu-ray"? Been there, done that.

"As good as Blu-ray"? They'll get sued the minute that appears.

This is going to be a product without any ability to differentiate itself. The only sense in which it could be considered a "Blu-ray killer" would be if it persuaded people that basic DVD is good enough for the foreseeable future.

And there's a big potential danger. I'm sure that, to get the full benefit of this upconversion, you'll need a 1080p (or at least i) set with an HDMI connection. Well, once you have that, it's not much of a step to hook up a Blu-ray player. So, to the extent Toshiba succeeds in getting people to adopt this new upconversion technology, it may just be helping to prepare people for Blu-ray.

M.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Or the very least cause further confusion about true 1080p versus upconverted 480p signal. IMO, nothing good is going to come out of this situation.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I got an e-mail yesterday about this new Toshiba machine from a dear friend who was an ardent HD-DVD supporter and has been nothing but bitter about HD-DVD's closing its doors. He was crowing about this new player and how it will keep him from having to go Blu. So some folks out there are fully behind anything that will soothe the hurt they felt over the demise of HD-DVD.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Sounds like somebody that has too much emotional investment in a format war to really enjoy the very best that home video can offer them.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

As one who did not take part in the "war" and still is happy with my up converting DVD player. I would love to see this technology become available. I am tired of buying the same movies and music again and again - just because the format changed. As far as all those extras included in the bluray, I rarely watch any included on a SDVD. Still the cost of a new player and upgrading my projector and upgrading my receiver and upgrading my video library is not worth the improvements from SDVD to bluray. If I can get better quality video from my existing collection, I would be all over it. I agree with Ron's points listed above. Better quality with less investment is good.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I think it really depends on what sort of hardware is required. From what has been rumored, this software is going to take a lot more juice than what's in current upconverting DVD players; probably the cell processor used in the PS3 (a chip which is manufactured by Toshiba). Given that Blu-ray prices will be starting to come down, I don't think this will be a huge threat by the time it's actually ready for release.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quite the irrational reaction. It's bad enough that some Blu-ray releases don't live up to the technical capabilities of the format, but for Toshiba to push upconverted DVDs as an HD "solution" is really bad. Downward price pressure on BR is the ONLY good I can see out of this.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I agree completely, but I long stopped arguing with him about it. To each his own has been my philosophy for the last two years.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Anything that may put pressure on Sony and Studios to drop the prices on hardware and software the better. Maybe studios will get their act together and utilize the BR technology to the fullest. And I'm talking audio and video, not extras. In my opinion the average consumer is going to move very slowly to the BR format because player prices are too high, software more expensive and hell even rentals for BR movies are $1 more. So why wouldn't consumers buy into technology that offers near Bluray picture quality for a fraction of the price, that uses already available software thats both cheaper to buy and rent.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I have said this before....my feeling is that BD is going to be a niche format, much like laser disc was, for a long time. The one variable to that is the PS3.

As for this Tosh rumbling, if it's hampered by the HDMI handicap, then people with HDMI capable sets might just as well BD themselves.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Kevin,

I couldn't agree with you more.

I thoroughly enjoy watching films on Blu-ray. In fact, seconds ago
I just watched Cloverfield for the very first time and immensely
enjoyed the BR presentation.

That being said, my Blu-ray player is already outdated thanks to
the fact that it's not capable of taking advantage of the new profile.
Now I have to go buy another BR player, and quite frankly, the
prices on the better players are still outrageously priced.

So, part of the excitement that I have for Toshiba's new player
is that it is going to force the studios and hardware manufacturers
to drop prices.

Listen, all arguments presented in this thread are good ones. Sure,
it sucks that Toshiba is going to further confuse the market with
another upconverting player. Best hope is that Toshiba puts some
aggressive marketing behind their product so it helps consumers sort
through upconverting players mess.

However, if this doesn't kill Blu-ray (and I never said it would), it
will stand as a compliment to the format. For someone like myself
who has 2500 DVDs in my collection, I would rather have a Toshiba
player that upconverts them to HD levels rather than having to replace
many of those titles on Blu-ray. Of course, I will always continue to buy
my favorite titles on the best format out there which is Blu-ray.

How can anyone be against technology that makes DVD titles look identical
to HD titles? You can say you won't embrace the technology, but I can't see
anybody not wanting to make their DVDs look better than they already do for
a pricepoint already being touted as being cheaper than buying a Blu-ray player.

If all claims by Toshiba are true (and its too early to tell), everybody's gonna
want one of these players.

Part of me hopes there is room for both players. However, I do
realize that this only confuses the matter more for the general public.
I'm not looking to kill or replace Blu-ray, but let's face it, Blu-ray players
will not have the new technology to upgrade sDVDs to look comparable to HD.

Understandably, I can see people being pissed at Toshiba....but can you
blame them for not wanting to capitalize on technology like this? Don't
you think any one of us would want the type of technology that company
is promising? If not Toshiba, someone else would be rolling this out.

All I can say is that Sony needs to get smart and drop player and
hardware prices if they want to take a lead prior to Toshiba rolling
back into town.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I think one factor that prevents a price drop for BD is the return on investment aspect. From what I am to understand, video game systems are sold at a loss, with the manufacturer knowing they will make up profit via game sales. Since it's unlikely Warner or Paramount will share profits from BD sales with any of the BD player makers...they don't have that in their back pocket. I figure only Sony would get some kind of royalties.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If this new technology upconverts SD-DVDs in a NOTICEABLY better way than my PS3 and my HD-A2 do today, I WILL EAT MY OWN BUTT.

Ridiculous.

But seriously. . .the best SD-DVDs already look very close to HD-quality when upconverted (and I am using a 65" display). There isn't enough room between current upconverting players and real HD for another technology to make any difference. Not to mention the fact that we appear to be very close to $200 Blu-Ray decks.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

cough coughThere's one that isn't.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Tell me this, is the bottom line Toshiba is afraid that they will lose out on their share of the profits on DVD itself. They are one of the developers of the format, and they would hate to see Blu-ray overtake DVD, cause thats revenue out of their pocket.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Michael-
I think it was their justification that they wouldn't be boat anchors if HD DVD lost the format war.

I don't see why anyone is against technology that will give them (potentially) better video performance. I don't see it as a "BD-Killer" since it won't give me any interactive features, better audio and I doubt BD quality video. Based on what I have heard it will probably do a outstanding job upconverting SD sources, better than most consumer technologies. That is a good thing. I would love to see better quality scalers in CE products: AV receivers, HDTVs and DVD players.

If Toshiba markets it as "just as good/better than BD" I will have a problem with it. Plenty of other DVD players upconvert to 1080P right now, so I don't think it will cause any additional confusion--The sales people who tell their customers that 1080P DVD players are HD will continue to do so with or without this player.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I forgot to add that technology improvements like this mean that BD needs to tout its other advantages over DVD to average consumers, not just the AV quality.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

They will also have to watch their video quality in particular. That's a good thing, IMO. If you buy a BD version you must be able to be confident it's better than the cheaper SDVD (on one of those new Toshes).


Cees