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A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

#1
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5/28/08 at 6:47pm
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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#2
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5/28/08 at 7:18pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I choose this film to be my BD of the week, next week. Hot dam I like George C. Scott as a general. His Patton is almost as good as his General Turgeson bit...and there's good ole Karl Malden. He's a fine General too.

Robert are you implying that some DNR has been applied. I must admit I didn't understand all the term you used....like the "Red" and "Dalsa". You lost me there.

Well, it sounds like the film was reincarnated as good data.

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

I survived the AFI top 100 Film Challenge! I've seen them all.

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#3
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5/28/08 at 7:37pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I'm not sure how to respond to these comments. In some ways it is good news, but at the same time I'm disappointed that the film has been "scrubbed."

Although it is a different situation this is somewhat analogous to my recent theater going experiences. In Moore, Oklahoma there is a beautiful new theater with a brilliant sound system. To my ear, it is the best I've heard in the state and the best I've heard in years. It also has a wonderful digital projection system. It will be awesome for Wall-E later in the summer, but for movies originated on film I still prefer even mediocre film projection. Not that digital is bad. That is what we use in our home systems after all and it is quite nice, but it is not the same as projected film and that is one of the reasons I'll still go out to see films. I'm just perplexed as to why I have to choose between great sound and a more film like image.

And now I'm perplexed by Patton. Why can't we have the benefits of modern HD discs without sacrificing the look and feel of film? So I'm a bit disappointed. I'll still enjoy what will be the best presentation of this film that I've had the opportunity to see, but there'll be that nagging sensation that it could have been better or to me more authentic.
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#4
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5/28/08 at 7:40pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael B
I choose this film to be my BD of the week, next week. Hot dam I like George C. Scott as a general. His Patton is almost as good as his General Turgeson bit...and there's good ole Karl Malden. He's a fine General too.

Robert are you implying that some DNR has been applied. I must admit I didn't understand all the term you used....like the "Red" and "Dalsa". You lost me there.

Well, it sounds like the film was reincarnated as good data.

Red and Dalsa are two HD cameras that are starting to be used by the film industry. Red being, I believe the first production ready 4k camera.

doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#5
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5/28/08 at 7:43pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael B
I choose this film to be my BD of the week, next week. Hot dam I like George C. Scott as a general. His Patton is almost as good as his General Turgeson bit...and there's good ole Karl Malden. He's a fine General too.

Robert are you implying that some DNR has been applied. I must admit I didn't understand all the term you used....like the "Red" and "Dalsa". You lost me there.

Well, it sounds like the film was reincarnated as good data.

Rachael, both Dalsa and Red are wonderful digital cinema cameras. The Red One has a 4K imaging sensor. The Epic that Mr. Harris referenced is an upcoming model that will have a 5K sensor.

RED / Index
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#6
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5/28/08 at 7:51pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Thanks for clearing me up 'bout the digital cameras guys!

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

I survived the AFI top 100 Film Challenge! I've seen them all.

favourite saying: hard feelings are for park benches... sit on that!

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#7
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5/28/08 at 9:39pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Is it at all possible that with the way the film was photographed the grain was minimal to begin with? Maybe I'm a little naive on this, but in most of the 65mm-originating films I've seen on film, I noticed a very clear image with very little grain (at least to my eyes a couple of years ago; I now wear glasses). Patton wasn't one of them, but the recent reprints I saw of other Fox films from around the same period (The Sound of Music, Doctor Doolittle, Hello Dolly) seemed almost like looking out a window. Though they are different films shot and stored under different conditions.

How is the detail compared to other Blu-Rays of 65mm films you've seen, like 2001?

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#8
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5/28/08 at 10:07pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

i wonder how a grain heavy film such as saving private ryan will look on blu-ray. i hope they wont abply any dnr on that one.

as for patton, i wont get it any time soon on br as i'm quite happy with the dvd. besides, you can't get every new release. then there is the note that a studio once again got their "make everything clean and slick" method out of the box doesn't convince me in getting it. they should finally stop doing that!!!
my HD DVD, Blu-ray & DVD collection - movie-list.com
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#9
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5/28/08 at 11:53pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Is it at all possible that with the way the film was photographed the grain was minimal to begin with?

The grain should be finer in appearance that a 35mm film, but it should still be there. Also if enough DNR is used the image will start to lose high frequency detail along with grain. The whole thing starts to take on a plastic (best way I can describe it) like look.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#10
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5/29/08 at 1:00am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Thanks yet again. This is what I was afraid of after looking at the screenshots in the blu-ray.com review.

Sad really. We finally have a a home video format that can do the movies justice and retain much of the cinematic experience even on larger screens, and they throw it all out the window.

If people want the movies to 'pop' (what does this mean anyway?) they should go to the IMAX 3D viewings.
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#11
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5/29/08 at 4:53am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

As I presume that Patton was shot on Eastman 5254, it would have precisely the same grain structure as every other film shot on 5254.

Because it was shot on 65mm, the APPARENT grain seems finer because, when projected in 70mm, the image is being magnified only 40% that of 35mm.

And yes, a "plastic" look is a very good word. High frequency information in faces, fabrics, walls, etc. is gone.

There are ways around this.

Grain structure can be reduced without affecting the rest of the image, but at present I'm aware of only one facility with this capability -- Lowry -- which can also modify the grain structure without removing it totally, and without turning cinema to plastic.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#12
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5/29/08 at 9:52am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Grain structure can be reduced without affecting the rest of the image, but at present I'm aware of only one facility with this capability -- Lowry -- which can also modify the grain structure without removing it totally, and without turning cinema to plastic.

RAH

Yes if I didn't say it clearly I was trying to indicate that the grain would APPEAR to be finer because of the lower magnification. I don't know how apparent that would be on a reduction to 35mm, though I imagine that it would look less grainy than a standard 35mm to 35mm release print.

I've only seen the standard resolution versions, but Lowry seem to have done a very good job in this regard with the early Bond films. Dr. No in particular, I thought, looks fantastic.

Of course it helps when you have a DP of the caliber of Ted Moore providing a really solid, well exposed negative to start with.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#13
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5/29/08 at 10:02am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Seufz...
(Also, data as a medium can look like anything (film, video...). Data is neutral. Scanners, projectors, algorithms... they are not so neutral (depends). And data has limits defined by the technical specs of the data. If they don't match the source data distorts the source. So data can not be neutral as well. Oh, the complexity... )
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#14
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5/29/08 at 11:37am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I'm sorry but I think these complaints specious. Totally subjective and probably no way to prove. Could comparison screenshots be provided? I've heard this argument before and can't see for my own eyes what they mean.

I think it more like the complaints of analog/vinyl vs. digital/cd. I think the former a dinosaur and good riddance. something of a backhanded compliment in my view.
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#15
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5/29/08 at 11:57am
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

You can see comparisons of the BD to the most recent DVD here:

Patton - Blu-ray George C. Scott
My DVD/BD Collection
Criterion DVD/BDs Owned: 60, Total DVDs Owned: 533, Blu-ray Discs Owned: 242
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#16
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5/29/08 at 12:02pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Robert Harris's complaints "specious"? You're talking about the man who saved films like LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, SPARTACUS, VERTIGO, REAR WINDOW, THE GODFATHER and others from extinction. If anybody should know what "film" is supposed to look like, it's him.

You should do a little research before you throw around comments like this.

Vincent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles_Y
I'm sorry but I think these complaints specious. Totally subjective and probably no way to prove. Could comparison screenshots be provided? I've heard this argument before and can't see for my own eyes what they mean.

I think it more like the complaints of analog/vinyl vs. digital/cd. I think the former a dinosaur and good riddance. something of a backhanded compliment in my view.
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#17
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5/29/08 at 12:17pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
I'm sorry but I think these complaints specious. Totally subjective and probably no way to prove. Could comparison screenshots be provided? I've heard this argument before and can't see for my own eyes what they mean.

I think it more like the complaints of analog/vinyl vs. digital/cd. I think the former a dinosaur and good riddance. something of a backhanded compliment in my view.
You think it's "specious" to ask that a disc actually look like the film it's made from? Mr. Harris is dead on with his complaint, and I feel very sorry that studios are doing this sort of thing (and even more sorry that ignorant internet reviewers are going to tell everyone the transfer looks so gorgeous because of the absence of grain). Here's an audio analogy for you, since you brought up analog vs. digital: Suppose you have an analog source that happens to have tape hiss, and you transfer it to digital. You despise tape hiss, so you roll off the highs to get rid of the hiss. You now have a "clean", hiss-free digital transfer that also happens to be missing high frequencies that were present in the source. So you're telling me you'd be happy with this?

Edit: I just read the Blu-Ray.com review, and the reviewer whines quite a bit about tape hiss that was present in the source. I've no doubt he would have been happy to have the highs rolled off to get rid of it.
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#18
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5/29/08 at 12:23pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

A real shame in what these studios are doing.
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#19
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5/29/08 at 12:34pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Well, I will have to pick this up regardless, because this is my second favorite movie of all time, right behind "The Godfather" and just in front of "Lawrence of Arabia." I actually LIKE the screenshots I've seen on blu-ray.com, and, of course, nearly all the reviews have been outstanding with the only complaints rightly coming from Mr. Harris and from dvdreview.com in regards to the "scrubbed away grain." I'm just excited to hear how sharp and defined the image is, considering how soft the 2-disc Cinema Classics DVD is.
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#20
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5/29/08 at 12:36pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I'm also looking for others to chime in here, as the image via my system looks beautiful, sharp and clean, but devoid of high frequency anything.

Frames captures for this type question are unfortunately of very little value.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#21
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5/29/08 at 12:40pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Why is it that only Lowry/DTS can remove or minimize grain without removing high frequencies? Or do studios just go too far with their own DNR (which is probably it)?

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#22
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5/29/08 at 12:44pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Lowry has a proprietary system. Where their processing can take many seconds per frame, others can move frames through at much higher speeds.

Both remove grain, as can numerous other software packages, but only Lowry can reduce the grain while losing nothing of the image. I've seen their system in action, and find it amazing.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#23
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5/29/08 at 1:00pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Lowry has a proprietary system. Where their processing can take many seconds per frame, others can move frames through at much higher speeds.

Both remove grain, as can numerous other software packages, but only Lowry can reduce the grain while losing nothing of the image. I've seen their system in action, and find it amazing.
Except when it came to "Citizen Kane".
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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#24
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5/29/08 at 1:06pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I met the individual responsible for Citizen Kane. They were totally unfamiliar with the film. The word "embarrassment" doesn't come near how they feel.

Total operator failure by someone who was not given enough information. I also believe that this was a very early post-beta version of the program.

Properly directed their work was superb.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#25
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5/29/08 at 1:07pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Except when it came to "Citizen Kane".
If I remember correctly, didn't someone from Lowry say that they made a mistake and removed too much grain from Citizen Kane?

EDIT: RAH answered my question.
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#26
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5/29/08 at 1:09pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

To be fair, the algorithm used in Citizen Kane was an early version. One would hope the technology has improved in 8 years.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#27
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5/29/08 at 1:10pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
To be fair, the algorithm used in Citizen Kane was an early version. One would hope the terchnology has improved in 8 years.
Of course it has which is why I attached a smilie to my sarcastic comment.





Crawdaddy
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#28
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5/29/08 at 1:11pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
I met the individual responsible for Citizen Kane. They were totally unfamiliar with the film. The word "embarrassment" doesn't come near how they feel.

Total operator failure by someone who was not given enough information. I also believe that this was a very early post-beta version of the program.

Properly directed their work was superb.
RAH,
I was just kidding with my Kane reference, but my smilie wasn't enough to convey that.
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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#29
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5/29/08 at 1:13pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Not to jump the gun, but one has to serious wonder just how bad something like Godfather will be DNR'd when it comes to BD. Paramount has quite the track record for DNR too.
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#30
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5/29/08 at 1:23pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Smiley observed and taken.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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