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Is it too much to ask...

#1
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5/28/08 at 4:12am
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of the studios to lay off the DVNR?
I mean, considering this is for the foreseeable future, a niche format catering primarily to enthusiasts who are willing to pay some kind of premium for a 'higher fidelity' product- that there should be a covenant made to ensure that's what we'll get.
And rather than dumbing these releases down to be palatable to non-enthusiasts, wouldn't it be great if the studios engaged in an education campaign to foster appreciation for natural film-like transfers?
I'm only thinking here about a simple insert- in addition to the one telling you to update your firmware. This one could be more conversational in tone- like a short message from a prominent filmmaker explaining why the image on this disc won't look like the discovery channel - and then going on to suggest that the viewer can always avail themselves of their displays noise reduction feature if they 'must'.
Even better, they could really play up the 'high fidelity' special nature of this format and include content specific data like the film stocks used as well as notations for any special processes. Just think if there had been an insert like this in the Deliverence disc, for instance.The way it seems, we're back to square one but instead of letterbox bars its this sense of shame the studios seem to feel over the basic genetic make-up of their product.
Voices have to start getting raised over this stuff NOW before years go by and we are looking scores of releases that need to be re-mastered and properly re-released.
I mean, really..how many times are we going to have to re-buy these things?
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#2
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5/28/08 at 10:51am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

I'll be writing to every studio soon to tell them what I want...and do NOT want...out of Blu-Ray. I think we all should do that.

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

My DVD List at DVD Aficionado, Now Featuring Blu-Ray

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#3
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5/28/08 at 11:01am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
I'll be writing to every studio soon to tell them what I want...and do NOT want...out of Blu-Ray. I think we all should do that.
It isn't just Blu-ray. The abuse of DNR can make a major difference even on standard DVD. I just posted a review that addresses this very issue.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ollection.html

M.
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#4
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5/28/08 at 3:47pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

no it's not too much to ask for no DNR!

I will do my part while reviewing in regards to DNR, I come down hard on anything that goes thru my hands, you can count on that

no excuse for this crap!!

-Gary

Gary's HT/Review System
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#5
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5/28/08 at 6:26pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
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#6
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5/28/08 at 6:26pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

My DVD List at DVD Aficionado, Now Featuring Blu-Ray

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#7
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5/28/08 at 6:45pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

I assume DNR is the reason that the Short Circuit BD is devoid of detail. I've been chatting with some folks at AVS about it but nobody could tell me if there is definite tag to identify DNR as the culprit as opposed to a not so detailed scan of the film. I imagine DNR is the most likely thang but I hate to have to quess or assume.

Hey, I only paid $14, shipped for Short Circuit and it's stille funny as hell. It beats the hell out of my ole Laserdisc. I really hope it's not the prototype of DVR'ed films. It's not quite the return of Blur-ray but it lacks fine detail which is most apparent in more distant shots for me. My gut feeling that it is, well could be, the definitive DNR jobbie so far.....?

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

I survived the AFI top 100 Film Challenge! I've seen them all.

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#8
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5/28/08 at 7:26pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael B
I assume DNR is the reason that the Short Circuit BD is devoid of detail.
No, it's just a soft image. If DNR were the culprit, there wouldn't be so much visible film grain. I was quite pleased with the BR of Short Circuit, although it's certainly possible that a better image could be obtained (e.g., from different source materials).

M.
Zoloft and Paxil and Buspar and Xanex, Depacon, Chronaphin, Ambien, Prozac,
Ativan calms me when I see the bills.
These are a few of my favorite pills.
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#9
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5/28/08 at 8:46pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

the easiest way to spot DNR (if you have a display of enough quality to resolve the highest frequency detail available) is to look for the very fine film grain that is visible, if this is gone then DNR was used

Face/Off is the worst I have seen so far on either format, Top Gun and the Jack Ryan set (except CaPD) is pretty bad as well

I have a opinion on DNR and that is that it comes at the mastering stage, a few insiders pretty much confirmed this is the case as well most of the time, in addition to EE as well, both are 90% of the time added in the master, which is used for HD showing everywhere, from HBO to BD

one good example is The Mummy, horrible EE on D-Theater, SD DVD and the HD-DVD and I am willing to bet unless a new master was struck it will be on the upcoming BD as well

I have seen many titles on as many as 3 or 4 formats or TV channels that all had the same issues

my point is that BD authoring/mastering is not to blame most of the time, the studios are allowing poor mastering of their films by paying these crappy mastering firms to "make them look good", which some of them think means removing grain via DNR and boosting detail via EE

-Gary

Gary's HT/Review System
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#10
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5/29/08 at 5:53am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
Check out Robert Harris’ comments on The Longest Day in this area.
M.[/quote]Unfortunately there are many examples Michael. A few years ago I purchased a 2-disk set of Citizen Kane that was promoted as having “newly remastered picture and sound.” For me the picture had been cleaned up so much that some of the character (at least that I remembered was lost).
¡Time is not my master!
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#11
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5/29/08 at 5:55am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
Check out Robert Harris’ comments on The Longest Day or Patton in this area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
It isn't just Blu-ray. The abuse of DNR can make a major difference even on standard DVD....

M.
Unfortunately there are many examples Michael. A few years ago I purchased a 2-disk set of Citizen Kane that was promoted as having “newly remastered picture and sound.” For me the picture had been cleaned up so much that some of the character (at least that I remembered was lost).
¡Time is not my master!
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#12
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5/29/08 at 9:20am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Hmmmm...I have Sleepy Hollow and Top Gun on HD-DVD. I only watched part of Sleepy Hollow but all of Top Gun and they appeared to look just as I remembered. Sleepy Hollow will be difficult to judge when it comes to DVNR due to its stylized look. I saw the film in the theater and then later on DVD. The HD-DVD appeared to be the same...just with greater resolution.

I only have HD-DVD playback on my computer connected to a 37" Sharp LCD, I should point out. To more accurately notice a deliberate reduction in grain, I really need an HD-DVD player for my 57" rear projection set.

Before they're all gone, can anyone recommend a decent HD-DVD stand-alone player? Is the A35 from Toshiba the latest offering?

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.
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#13
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5/29/08 at 9:24am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Is it too much to ask ... for an appropriate title?
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#14
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5/29/08 at 9:28am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
Could you list some examples of DVNR used on HD media?
HD Disk (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) EE and DNR list - AVS Forum
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#15
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5/29/08 at 9:29am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
I have Sleepy Hollow and Top Gun and HD-DVD
Sleepy Hollow has only mild DNR (if any). I haven't seen the HD DVD of Top Gun, because frankly I've seen the movie enough times.

The worst examples from Paramount that I've seen are Face/Off (worst by far) and The Untouchables (not as bad, but noticeable).

M.
Zoloft and Paxil and Buspar and Xanex, Depacon, Chronaphin, Ambien, Prozac,
Ativan calms me when I see the bills.
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#16
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5/29/08 at 9:33am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Thanks. That's quite a list. I appreciate that some have included screen caps also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
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#17
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5/29/08 at 9:42am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Pretty much everything Paramount has put out that isn't a new release seems to have some form of DNR.

Not quite, Sleepy Hollow has beautiful natural grain. Sahara doesn't seem to have any DNR applied. It's an anamorphic film and has very fine but visible grain. And Transformers exhibits quite a bit of grain particularly in the night scenes and looks very natural.

Doug
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Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#18
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5/29/08 at 9:49am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

I fear this is already a lost cause. Releases that look like video games usually get high marks from most reviewers and end up high on those silly picture quality tier threads on other fora, while releases that actually look like film get criticized for containing a little grain, a hair and a scratch here and there or whatever else that doesn't make them look smooth and give them "3D pop".

It's a shame because with BD we finally have a format that has the resolution to make film look like film and not like video, and now we have all those ignoramuses basically complaining that their films don't look like video anymore.
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#19
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5/29/08 at 10:04am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

This is why I only go to review sites run by people who appreciate "film". Yes, that includes Home Theater Forum. I imagine these "film enthusiast" sites also get those most attention from industry folks. That means our cause is not lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N
I fear this is already a lost cause. Releases that look like video games usually get high marks from most reviewers and end up high on those silly picture quality tier threads on other fora, while releases that actually look like film get criticized for containing a little grain, a hair and a scratch here and there or whatever else that doesn't make them look smooth and give them "3D pop".

It's a shame because with BD we finally have a format that has the resolution to make film look like film and not like video, and now we have all those ignoramuses basically complaining that their films don't look like video anymore.
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#20
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5/29/08 at 10:42am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
This is why I only go to review sites run by people who appreciate "film". Yes, that includes Home Theater Forum. I imagine these "film enthusiast" sites also get those most attention from industry folks. That means our cause is not lost.

I hope you're right but I fear it's turning into a case of the public gets what the public wants. And it seems to me that at the moment the public is largely made up of people who don't appreciate film per se.
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#21
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5/29/08 at 10:47am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
This is why I only go to review sites run by people who appreciate "film"..

Just out of curiosity.. How do you divide the review-sites that "appreciate film" and which "doesn´t appreciate film"? Just wondering, since one site has usually several reviewers etc.

I bet most (sure, not all, some clearly just "take the review-copy and run") of these reviewers "appreciate film" and all that, but the big question is, that how "deep" those reviewers have to dig? They might just "miss" (or even ignore) something when it comes to serious "HT-crowd". And if they "miss" something, that doesn´t necessarily mean that the transfer looks "bad". Review is hardly never the "whole truth". Often it´s just one opinion. Buying (or NOT buying) some title based on e.g one review is probably not recommended. Several sources is the key.

After all, we´re not living in a perfect world (even Blu-ray is not "perfect") and not all people watch these films like the people who e.g. made that AVSforum-list (hell, I have several of those releases - and I´m happy with them).

But sure, DVNR is obviously a bad thing. I personally like natural film grain.

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*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#22
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5/29/08 at 10:49am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N
I fear this is already a lost cause. Releases that look like video games usually get high marks from most reviewers and end up high on those silly picture quality tier threads on other fora, while releases that actually look like film get criticized for containing a little grain, a hair and a scratch here and there or whatever else that doesn't make them look smooth and give them "3D pop".
{shameless self-promotion on} There are still some reviewers who know the difference. {/shameless self-promotion off}

M.
Zoloft and Paxil and Buspar and Xanex, Depacon, Chronaphin, Ambien, Prozac,
Ativan calms me when I see the bills.
These are a few of my favorite pills.
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#23
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5/29/08 at 10:53am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N
I hope you're right but I fear it's turning into a case of the public gets what the public wants. And it seems to me that at the moment the public is largely made up of people who don't appreciate film per se.
To be fair, this has been the case since the beginning. That's the nature of the beast known as "the public", and the difference in tastes between the people who went to see "King Kong" in 1933 and the ones who went to see "Transformers" in 2007 isn't all that huge.
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#24
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5/29/08 at 11:00am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

It´s true, that many people don´t fully understand film grain, especially now with 1080p. Some actually believe that "300" and "Cars" should look "equal" (=polished, "perfect", no grain, vivid, sharp, etc). With Blu-ray, some people suddenly forget the "intended, artistic style" of the film, and focus solely on the technical issues.

There are clearly unrealistic expectations towards Blu-ray, we have seen this from time and time again.. Sadly.

Grain is part of the film dammit!

Rewind - DVDcompare/Site Administrator
*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#25
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5/29/08 at 11:08am
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
To be fair, this has been the case since the beginning. That's the nature of the beast known as "the public", and the difference in tastes between the people who went to see "King Kong" in 1933 and the ones who went to see "Transformers" in 2007 isn't all that huge.

Maybe not but the public nowadays has much more ways to make its opinion known (and does so louder than ever) than it did in the thirties. There's a reason why Hollywood is ruled by accountants these days and art is almost a dirty word.
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#26
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5/29/08 at 12:25pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Well, if the current Blu-ray demo kiosk I'm seeing at one local CC is the trend and will actually sell the masses on Blu-ray, then we are indeed all doomed. Gosh, I cannot believe how weird the various combo of 120Hz smoothing effect (used in LCDs) + likely hyper enhanced Blu-ray images + whatever else the demo display itself does w/ EE/DNR/contrast/color boost/etc can look w/ the "3D pop" until I saw it the other day while scoping out some big HD displays at CC.

Talk about "3D pop". *That* Blu-ray demo reminded me of my kids' pop-up books (but suped up some more w/ color/contrast/etc). It's *that* kind of 3D pop look that I saw. Yikes!

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#27
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5/29/08 at 12:31pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny_N
There's a reason why Hollywood is ruled by accountants these days and art is almost a dirty word.
'These days'? It's always been that way.
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#28
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5/29/08 at 1:03pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I have a opinion on DNR and that is that it comes at the mastering stage, a few insiders pretty much confirmed this is the case as well most of the time, in addition to EE as well, both are 90% of the time added in the master, which is used for HD showing everywhere, from HBO to BD.......I have seen many titles on as many as 3 or 4 formats or TV channels that all had the same issues

That makes sense. I've seen the same issues on multiple formats/channels too.

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

I survived the AFI top 100 Film Challenge! I've seen them all.

favourite saying: hard feelings are for park benches... sit on that!

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#29
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5/29/08 at 2:08pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

I didn't do a good job of expressing my thoughts in the original post because while DNR abuse worries me greatly,I see it as symptomatic of a bad trajectory for the format in general- and that's tied into this dumbing down, homogenizing aspect I see creeping in.
Rather than the studios getting into a mindset that has to turn catalog in a video-game clean, grain free, ignoramuses idea of what 'HD is supposed to look like' , I want to see them prodded into taking a more pro-active role in elevating the discourse, and educating the buyers.
When I bought Deliverence, I had no clue as to the original asethetic intent behind the visuals, nor any idea of what 'flashed' meant. Rather than coming by this info in a commentary or featurette which I may not see- wouldn't it have been sensible to put this information in liner notes in an insert...so that you when threads get started warning people away from a release, the ammo is readily there to point to and say "this is what it is supposed to look like". They may not like the look, but the whole level of discourse has the chance to be more quickly elevated and rather than scaring people away, the (artistically) curious might be motivated to check it out sooner.
Some of the studios are doing this in regards to printing the tech specs on the jacket in detail. That satisfies the tech fetishists out there. I'm suggesting detailed info to satisfy the film-fetishists...which looks to me to also be the way to insure more positive word of mouth on future catalog. I really think the foolish warnings from tier-thread habituees hasn't helped many catalog sales in this regard. And THAT bothers me almost as much as the DNR abuse.
In short- a premium positioned product needs -LINER NOTES that put its visual, aural, and technical attributes into context.
Is that too much to ask?
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#30
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5/29/08 at 2:27pm
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Re: Is it too much to ask...

Paul, that's all very noble but maybe we should pool our monies and buy the Discovery HD channel and make it grainy as hell to change folk's expectations. We could also push for a Scrub function on TV remotes so peoples of earth could have it their way and the media cold remain genuine. Then, they could adjust the grain right out of even Rattle And Hum if they wanted.

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

I survived the AFI top 100 Film Challenge! I've seen them all.

favourite saying: hard feelings are for park benches... sit on that!

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