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Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

#31
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5/15/08 at 11:03am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert bartsch
Thanks....

I finally got the sub to work after much reading. One frustrating part is that the screen shots in the Onkyo user manual do not match the text display on the receiver. Yeh, I checked the documentation manual and it is for an SR805 Onkyo receiver.

I think they must have changed the chip set or something because these do not match at all.

Anyway, the screen shots for many of the set-up functions do not match. I spent at least one hour this AM trying to use the automated speaker set up. Once again the screen shots in the manual do not match the text in the receiver.

Don'y use the manual.

Get In My Belly.

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#32
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5/15/08 at 1:16pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Dave:

What do you think of these for less than $600?


JBL Professional 3677 at Performance Audio



My busted Denon is coming home from the repair shop and I may throw it inthe living room with a set of these. They seem like a real bargan to me.
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#33
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5/15/08 at 3:37pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

I would see if you can find a place to listen to them first. Some of those speakers need a EQ to sound right. I was trying to find the minimum power requirements but did to find them. Those look like what I should be using for surrounds with my Altec A-7's.


What Denon do you have?

What is the power rating of your receiver?

There is a good chance those could sound really good but to be honest I have not heard them in a home enviroment, only in the theater and not up close. And they where being used as surround speakers so I have no idea how they would work out for mains channels.

Now if I was living back in California still in the place I was living before I would purchase 2 pair of these for surrounds in a 7.1 configuration. But of course I would do some critical listening first before buying.

Thanks for providing the link, I am going to have to look into these in depth.

1080p High Definition SupporterLossless Audio Supporter Current Library: 221 DVD's / 70 HD-DVD's / 181 Blu-ray's (251 HD Titles)

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#34
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5/18/08 at 3:53pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

The Denon is old - 10 years. Just replaced it with a Onkyo 805 (130W @ .05% THD)

Anyway, for The Denon is rated at 105 watts x 5 at .05% THD. The repair shop said it is a good unit, but it has been back to Denon twice and now needed repair for a third time.

What is the sensativity rating of your A7's? ...my VOTTs would crank with a few watts of power, so I'm thinking the JBLs at 99DB sensativity would be fine with 105 watts.
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#35
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5/18/08 at 4:05pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

One other thing....

Some folks in the speaker forum here have the view that VOTT speakers are not accurate and are only designed for soundstages, etc.

IMO, my old VOTT from 35 years ago out perform my set of high end Klipsch floors I have in my main system now.

Do you beleive the VOTT outperform any home speakers you have tested? I suspect the JBLs would be very similar but don;t know anywhere that I could test them.
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#36
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5/18/08 at 5:01pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Quote:
What is the sensativity rating of your A7's? ...my VOTTs would crank with a few watts of power, so I'm thinking the JBLs at 99DB sensativity would be fine with 105 watts.

To my knowledge I belive the are rated at 97db. These have been the best speaker I have ever owned and I doubt I would ever part with them. I hope to get around to refinishing them some time soon. I kinda jumped the gun a few years ago a stripped most of the paint off of them. But 1 watt is all it takes to bring them to life. They are very efficient and that is one of the reasons I love them, and they sound great no matter what I am playing through them. When my father owned them I watched him put 300 watts continuous into them and they handled it. My father used to use a commercial grade Yamaha power amp and at the time he had two pair of A-7's and a pair of 18" subwoofers and had 1 300 watt Yamaha for each pair of speakers.

Quote:
Some folks in the speaker forum here have the view that VOTT speakers are not accurate and are only designed for soundstages, etc.

I am sure there are some people here that would think that. I am not sure I could find anything to match them under $5k a pair. And I hear the reissues of the A-7's are going for $8k each.

Here is what the decal looked like exactly and the same color.

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#37
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5/19/08 at 1:00am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

I've hunted around a bit and, apparently, Altec is not making professional components anymore.

The JBLs seem close and cheap at under $600. My Klipsch's are $800 or so and they can"t touch the old Altecs. At 92DB you need to feed them moderate power to get any sound and that could be one significant difference. There is a lot less distortion at lower power levels.

My wife moans about big speaker in the house so the JBLs are not real big which is a +.
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#38
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5/19/08 at 12:33pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

SO far off topic, but....
I worked at a stage theater where we needed a big old subwoofer for an avalanche effect. After the run of that show, this behemoth Altec sat under the seating, quietly gathering dust. One day, or it might have been night, someone needed a bit of extra light and so they plugged in the stage plug that they thought was connected to a stage light down there.

Big mistake. That plug was actually connected to the subwoofer, which is a 18" speaker in a cabinet about seven feet wide, four feet tall, and 2.5 feet deep - it's a folded horn, and frighteningly efficient.

The subwoofer just sat there, cranking out 150 dB of pure 60 Hz. Man, was that ever hilarious!

--ignore the man behind the curtain

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#39
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5/19/08 at 6:20pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

The biggest problem I have with user manuals is when they are obviously written by someone for whom English is not their first language.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#40
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5/20/08 at 7:02am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Yikes! ...those old drivers are pretty rare and I would have thought they could be damaged with 120 volt current.

What ever happened to the old horn?
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#41
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5/20/08 at 9:36am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Last time I saw that monstrous old folded-horn subwoofer, it was doing duty as a low-frequency-effects unit in a theme park...the audio company I worked for at the time installed it there, way back in 1987 or so.

Those old drivers are tougher than you might think. We commonly ran each VOTT cabinet at 800 watts for rock music, and we had stacks of them.

--ignore the man behind the curtain

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#42
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5/20/08 at 11:28am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Getting back on topic - it's not just Onkyo and Denon. I have an instruction manual for another manufacturer's amp that is 100+ pages long and is just about the worst-designed thing I've ever encountered. Part of my job is writing textbooks and instructional materials and so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that the amp manual is like How Not to Write an Instruction Manual 101. Some examples:

(1) the manual spends several pages encouraging you to use the HDMI inputs rather than component; but you also need the OSD (nowhere is this abbreviation explained) to do some of the set up. And guess what? The OSD is only displayed on component. This is mentioned once, in 8 point type, submerged within a diagram on an unrelated topic, about twenty pages later.

(2) the planning genius who wrote the manual ommitted to mention that unless you have the fingers of a small child, the connections must be placed in the back in a particular order - and that order is the reverse of the one given in the manual.

(3) only by cross-referencing five separate entries is it possible to work out which connections are to be used for a 5.1 speaker set up (the amp assumes 7.1 is the default). Oh yes, and to properly set up your speakers you need the OSD. But if you follow the manual's sequences, you set up the speakers before the OSD link is established.

(4) there are about thirty pages of instructions on how to set up macros, get the remote control to operate your other equipment, etc. Suffice to say that five people with science and engineering doctorates have looked at these instructions and between us we still can't work out how to do these operations. The one time I attempted to programme the remote I swear I opened a car parked in the street.

(5) the troubleshooting section is full of helpful advice such as 'if the unit does not respond, check the power source is on'. Thanks, I'll try that; since my lobotomy I haven't been thinking all that clearly.
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#43
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5/20/08 at 12:28pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Yeh, I spent hours learning how to manually adjust the balance and tone controls for the Onkyo receiver. I turn off the unit in the AM and return in at night to learn that the settings go back to zero if you turn the power off. This is kinda dumb; right?

Heh, I just bought an Internet card for a portible PC and the software crashes the MS operating system. I tried several times including updates on the Net and finally removed the software and the unit stopped crashing.
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#44
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5/20/08 at 1:19pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

The manual's are so much easier to read online.

Get In My Belly.

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#45
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5/21/08 at 9:55am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Andrew....now that was funny!

I heartily agree that the manuals are junk. Horrible. Written in chinese, transliterated to Swahili, sent out on separate pages to Latvian kindergartners to copy (and translate into four different dialects of north-central India) and then re-written by dyslexic accolytes of rare cults that arose in the south pacific during WWII before being translated to English by yak herders in Siberia.

I think what got a rise out of folks is that we originally thought that the OP meant that the equipment is junk. Good thing we got that sorted out!

If someday someone creates a powerful, flexible device with a sensible user interface, it will sell like hotcakes. Or like the iPhone.

--ignore the man behind the curtain

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#46
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5/21/08 at 10:24am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Quote:
Written in chinese, transliterated to Swahili, sent out on separate pages to Latvian kindergartners to copy (and translate into four different dialects of north-central India) and then re-written by dyslexic accolytes of rare cults that arose in the south pacific during WWII before being translated to English by yak herders in Siberia.

You omitted to mention that the yak herders must be certified mad and to have not said a single intelligible phrase in at least four years.

I have a theory that amp manuals are some sort of device of the intelligence services. If you manage to act on every instruction in the book correctly, the amp sends out a radio signal and the men in black come to your house to recruit you for a secret cryptography service.
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#47
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5/21/08 at 1:11pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew markworthy
If you manage to act on every instruction in the book correctly, the amp sends out a radio signal and the men in black come to your house to recruit you for a secret cryptography service.

Oh man, I am SOOOOO screwed! I have a computer system here at work with over 6000 pages of gobbledegook in the manual. Will the MIB hold off until I wade through that?

--ignore the man behind the curtain

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#48
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6/18/08 at 12:55pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

I thought that this little tidbit, from the online "Handbook of software architecture" might interest those who joined in this thread:

"the primary challenge of every software development team is to engineer the illusion of simplicity in the face of essential complexity."

This is exactly the trouble with the manuals and the arcane, byzantine, downright mean user interface.

--ignore the man behind the curtain

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#49
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6/25/08 at 1:15am
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Hence people prefer Yamahas - easy to use, with good manuals.

But sadly, I have to pick up an Onkyo as my next amp. Tossing between 705/805/875.
Yumbiosis - all things Yumbo
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#50
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6/25/08 at 11:41pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

Why???

If the Onkyo user / firmware update / known issue threads at AVS are too long to wade through, try this one:
Onkyo tx-nr905 or Yamaha rx-v3800? - AudioReview Forums
In addition to what's mentioned there:
The AM/FM tuner is always on internally, and feeds through the phono input.
The multi-band graphic equalizer (your only way to fine tune Audyssey) won't work on 192kHz input signals -- bad news if you are inputting high res audio or upconverting to same.
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#51
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6/30/08 at 3:29pm
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Re: Onkyo/Denon - who designs this junk?

and i ordered this onkyo SR606 reciever after reading so much of reviews reading every possible place on the web....finally to recieve a defective piece...well thats what i am assuming for now...cos i returned the unit and waiting for a replacement....
Problem was with the pic display on the tv screen in the hdmi mode...pic was blurred with a vertical patch on the left....i am hoping that it WAS a defective piece and i get a good one....i fought for almost 3 days with setups, reading the complicated manuals...trying to understand what each meant...
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