Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Hi. I'm sorta new here, and I have a few questions that's been on my mind for a while.

1) Is it worth buying older movies on Blu-Ray? And by older, I mean 10+years old. Will they look any better on BD then on DVD?

2) Also, when did most television studios start filming/editing their shows in a widescreen format?

Thanks for your help!

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

1) although film isn't measured in 'lines' of resolution, like video, it contains a higher degree of resolvable detail than 1080p (Bd) is able to display. So the short answer is Yes. But the thing to realize is there are mitigating circumstances that will determine the practical difference that Bd vs DVD will reveal to your eyes
-the quality of your vision
-the size, resolution, and quality of your display
-the distance you sit from your display(known as the viewing angle)
-the quality of the original master(transfer) used to make the Bd
-the compression/encoding of the Bd
-the style and aesthetic choices made when the movie was shot (i.e. the kind of film stock, the lighting, the lenses...etc),
-the condition of the film elements used to make the transfer
and so on. So ultimately while the potential is there, you yourself may or may not see much of a difference. At the same time, someone with different gear who sits closer to a larger display may be dazzled by the improvment he sees.
Despite the marketing hype on the jackets, Blu-ray is not the most spectacular visual display technology ever devised by man...its simply high definition resolution which is currently the highest available consumer home video display resolution. Most film, even 70 year old 'full frame' (1.33:1 AR) blows Blu-ray away in the area of 'definition' capability.
2) Not sure exactly, but I would guess shortly after the debut of Dvd which started making the concept of letterboxing ok for viewers with non-16:9 displays...so probably around '99/2000 I would think it started to become more prevelant. I'm sure somone here will know exactly.
BTW- welcome to the forum.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

The key word in the question is "most." And that didn't happened until the networks started broadcasting in high definition and that was around 2003.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Perhaps they could look slightly better in your TV, but generally HD-films (usually 1080p) are meant to be seeing with HDTV (720p/1080i/1080p - latter being "full HD").

My advice is, that buy a new HDTV first. Of course you can keep buying Blu-ray-titles in the meantime (you just can´t enjoy "HD quality", which is a shame).

"Widescreen format" means several different aspect ratios: 1.66:1, 1.78:1, 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 2.40:1, even 2.70:1 with e.g. "Ben Hur"... (vs. traditional 4:3 AKA 1.33:1). So you always have those "black bars" with certain films (no matter what TV you´ve, 4:3 or 1.78:1).

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

1.If they were shot on film and the transfer is done right, yes.
2. Well, X-Files season 5 was the first season to shoot wide, so whatever that year was.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Jari, how do you know what kind of TV John currently has? And what exactly is an "HD-film" (as opposed to, say a "film-film")?

Paul_Scott's detailed answer is the correct one and to summarize: Yes, anything shot on film, from whatever era, will look better on Blu-ray, if it's mastered properly and you have the equipment for proper playback. (Note: "better" = "more detailed and more accurate".)

M.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

He said "10+years old". I just assumed that it´s just normal "tube-TV" or at least using standard definition (not "HD" - 720p or 1080i/p).

With "HD-film", I just meant Blu-ray/HD DVD. Bad choice of word, perhaps.

I guess others are more "open" etc ( ), but I personally don´t see any real point of buying e.g. 1080p Blu-ray-films and then watch them "downconverted" to NTSC 480i/p (via standard definition TV). That just was my point.

I would start saving for a new HDTV and buy some selected Blu-ray-titles in the "meantime". But if HDTV is not an option, is probably best to stick with DVDs (cheaper).

Then again, these are all personal choices.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

???

He didn't have to (re-)install an old TV set just to view movies that are 10+ years old. He probably has a new HDTV already, or contemplates buying one, and wonders if it's worth viewing older movies on BD on it.

The general answer is: yes. Old movies like Casablanca and The Searchers have already proven to look stunning on the hi-res format!


Cees

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Just to clear things up, I have a 40' Sony Bravia that's limit is 1080i. And my Blu-Ray player is a PS3 that's hooked up via HDMI cables.

But thanks for the help!

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

1) Both Babylon 5 and Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman were shooting in Super35 and protecting for 16:9 in anticipation of HDTV in 1994 three years before the debut of DVD. (Everybody thought HDTV was going to arrive a lot sooner than it did, and the producers of B5 assumed the widescreen home video release would be on laser disc. )

2) Unless it is a tube set, John's TV is either 720p/768p or 1080p - probably the former. The fact that it can accept a 1080i signal is irrelevant. If it is a fixed-pixel design (LCD, LCD-RP, LCoS, DLP, about 90% of plasmas) it scales everything to its native resolution, which is going to be progressive.

3) "10+ years" referred to the age of the actual films (when they were produced) not the TV and not the home video versions released on DVD. Jari completely misunderstood the original post, hence the off-kilter tone of the replies.

And yes, all other things being equal an older film in hi-def is going to look better than an SD version of that film. As Paul noted there is far more detail in film than can reproduced by any home video system, so a higher resolution reproduction of a given film is going to show more detail than a lo-res one. Does a full color reproduction of the Mona Lisa in a $200 coffee table art book look better than a photo of the painting in your daily newspaper? Now it is true that the condition of the original is going to affect the final outcome, and the perceived quality, but in terms of basic image reproduction the higher res version is going to more faithfully reproduce the original. An art book picture of da Vinci's "The Last Supper" will show more cracks, fading and other damage much more clearly than one taken with a tourist's pocket camera, but that's because the painting really is cracked, fading and damage, and the better photograph captures more of the detail.

As Paul also noted, all things almost never are equal, so how much of an improvement you see or how well a particular transfers to Blu Ray will vary.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Yes he did, but he was referring to films, not TVs. Re-read the initial post.

(Joe, I know you've already said this, but it's sandwiched between other points and . . . you know. ).

M.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Oh s**t, you´re right. Sorry, I simply misread the first post..

Yep, these fine people are correct. "Older films" look indeed great in HD and yes, usually "better than SD DVD".

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Casablanca (1942) and Forbidden Planet (1956) are some examples of just how fantastic an old film can look in High Definition. There are details in these old films that are just not visible in standard definition. All 3 films were released on HD DVD but I don't think they have made it to blu-ray yet. Rio Bravo (1959) and The Searchers (1956) are both out on blu-ray and The Searchers in particular is stunning.

As for TV shows, some as far back as the 1960s were protecting for 1.85:1. One good example of this is the two part episodes of The Man From U.N.C.L.E. which were shot with the intention of releasing them in theaters in Europe. (they were huge hits in the theater by the way) They did 2 or 3 of these a season.

I remember reading a 1981 TV guide that talked about the shooting of The Fall Guy and that they were protecting for 1.85:1 because they were anticipating the coming of HDTV. (the Japanese were testing analog HDTV systems as early as 1979)

However even today there are some shows that are NOT shot with widescreen in mind.

Doug

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Wow, that's sad.

And sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I'll be honest and say that I'm not all too knowledgable about this stuff. But I'm learning.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Not at all it's a good question. There is a misconception that older films won't benefit from an HD presentation and asking these kinds of questions help to dispel those myths.

Doug

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Scrubs 4x3 standard def. Hopefully that will change now that they are leaving NBC.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Along with being honest...asking questions is the way to learn about stuff. Welcome to the HTF, John!


Even certain reality shows are still shot & composed for 4:3. For example, Survivor and The Amazing Race. But Survivor has announced the move to HD next season!

As posted earlier by Cees, The Searchers (1956) looks unbelievably stunning in HD.

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Jari needed another cup of coffee. Or maybe a first cup?

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

I have a 16x9 1080i 47in Panny TV with Sony BD-301 running w component cables (If I knew then what I know now when I bought that TV!!)

I have Warriors, Halloween, Dawn of the Dead, Bullitt, Superman and they all look amazing in Blu.

Hope this helps

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

A newbie question: What's the resolution of the theater screen? Will we one day have a better picture on TV than in the cinema?

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Depends on who you ask and what format you are viewing, IE is it 35mm anamorphic....35mm flat, Super 35, 70mm ETC.

It is generally accepted that academy ratio 35mm film has about the equivalent or perhaps slightly more than 4K resolution in digital terms. HDTV at 1080 resolution is a little more than 1k. A 2k system is 2048x1080 and a 4k system is 4096x2160. At them moment there are only a few 4k theatrical installations world wide.

There are however other things that can effect the apparent resolution of film projected in a theater. Gate weave (the slight movement of the film from side to side in the projector gate) can reduce the apparent sharpness of the image. Also a film that you see in a multiplex is between 4 and 5 generations away from that original 4k equivalent film. So what you are actually seeing maybe closer to 2k resolution. Also your local theater may or may not have the best optics available.

Then there is the factor of the digital intermediary. Some films, in fact probably most of them now, are scanned digitally for color and other corrections before being printed back out to film. This means that whatever the resolution it was scanned in at is going to be the top end. Until recently most films were scanned at 2k, but 4k now seems to be the standard.

Doug

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

BD/HD-DVD is 1920x1080 so that makes it very close to 2k.


That would make a well mastered BD almost as good as the typical 35mm release print you see in commercial cinemas or not?

Re: Questions About Older Movies On Blu-Ray + TV In Widescreen

Yes HDTV is close to 2K, but it has a much more limited color space than the digital projection you see in the theater.

Yes a 1080p blu-ray disc is fairly close to the resolution that you may see in your local theater from film projection. This is one of the reasons that the studios are so big on copy protection. It is potentially possible for a pirate say in China to take a blu-ray disc, crack the copy projection, and then use the digital files to scan out a reasonably good copy to 35mm film for distribution in that country.

Doug

hello -- new guy here..  i have a question.. in regards to 1.85 aspect ratio - that is generally widescreen on DVD players but yet on my PS3 it ends up being full screen in blu ray. ??? the only ratio's that i can find or understand are true widescreen are 2.35 and 2.40 aspect ratios... the pictures seem much clearer.  now the true reason of the question is that I just purchased the batman anology on blu and the aspect ratio's are 1.85.. not a huge fan as the picture seems stretched... i have not opened this yet, and want to return, but I am trying to figure out if there is a technical answer to this.. how can I make the 1.85 appear in widescreen format - with the bars? 

thanks,

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question fully but a movie that is 1.85 won't have bars because the TV and the movie are both the same shape. You'll only have bars on an HDTV if the movie's aspect ratio isn't 1.85.

And 1.85:1 is as much a "true widescreen" aspect ratio as 1.66:1, 2.35:1 or 2.60:1.  Anything wider than 1.37:1 is "widescreen" as defined by the movie biz.  If you're seeing a "stretched" or distorted image, I suspect that output settings on the DVD players you've previously owned have been "off".  1.85:1 is so close to 1.77:1 (the physical aspect ratio of most widescreen TVs) that there is no practical difference between the two, especially considering the effect of overscan.  Thus a 1.85:1 filme (like a 1.77:1 HD TV show) should fill the screen.  (It would, of course, have letterbox bars on a 4:3 - AKA 1.33:1 - TV.)  As long as you're not seeing black "pillar box" bars on the right and left sides of the screen, you're seeing a widescreen image.  (These should only show up when you're watching a 1.37:1 Academy Ratio film like Casablanca or The Wizard of Oz or some other mostly pre-1950s film, or a pre-HDTV 1.33:1 TV show.) 

Regards,

Joe

Exactly what model TV are you watching on?  Is it a 4:3 set or a 16:9 set?  If the movie is truly "stretched" perhaps you have a tv shape setting wrong, or aspect setting wrong on your TV.

On a *16:9* set, 1.85:1 will usually take up the whole 1.78:1 screen for a couple reasons, overscan (the difference between ratios is only ~4 percent, and most TVs other than plasma/LCD in "dot for dot"/"just scan" mode will overscan more than this), and because a lot of 1.85:1 films actually are transferred at 1.78:1.  1.85:1 films are usually shot full frame, and matted for theatrical presentation.  This leaves extra picture on top&bottom not seen in the theater which is utilized for video transfers.  This makes it easier for older full screen 4:3 transfers, they don't have to crop the sides as much/at all.  That's why for a lot of films if you compare the 4:3 full frame version to the 1.85:1 widescreen, you'll see the 4:3 just has more picture on top & bottom. For 1.78:1 transfer they just add a little bit top&bottom, much less than for a 4:3 release.

But if you have a *4:3* old non-HDTV, or one of those early 4:3 HDTVs, and are seeing the whole screen being filled, then you have a setting problem.

thanks for the responses -- i don't think I stated my question accuratley though.   When I play a DVD at 1:85 aspect ratio it is wide screen on my TV, however when I play a blu-ray with a 1:85 aspect ration via my PS3 it is full screen.  the only blu rays that appear to be actual widescreen on my TV are that of 2:35 or 2:40.   with that it appears from the responses that it could very well be a setting of sorts maybe on my PS3?

thanks,
C

It sounds like the PS3 is set for 3:4 output.  Set the TV screen type to 16:9.

You aren't going to get anywhere if you don't answer our questions and just keep repeating yourself.
Again:
What is the brand and model # of your TV?
Is it an old, 4:3 set, or a new widescreen 16:9 HDTV?
Playing either a DVD or a Blu-ray on the PS3, are the images on screen in proper proportion, or is every thing distorted & looking taller & thinner than normal?