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Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

#91
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5/3/08 at 1:09am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong

If a film transfer yields enough noise/grain to push the limits of video compression, then DNR may indeed become necessary, particularly if the format has less headroom to handle it. Whether this has actually been true for any signficant number of cases, I do not know. But there's nothing invalid about what I said unless you can show me that the lower limits of HD-DVD or the use of MPEG2 on Blu-ray would *never* be an issue no matter how noisy and/or grainy a film transfer is -- and I really doubt you can show me that.

The fact is the video needs to be heavily compressed to fit w/in the limits afforded by *both* format, but more so for HD-DVD than for Blu-ray. And excess noise/grain can make compression inefficient, which can in turn lead to certain bad effects one way or another.

And really, this applies to all sorts of data compression, not just video. Basically, there's no free lunch.

Also, what you think is DNR might not be the only kind of DNR going on that might actually be needed. Depending on how one looks at it, stuff like aliasing artifacts can also be considered "noise" that needs filtering afterall.


This is absolutely correct. DNR, contrary to popular belief, is not always applied strictly for aesthetic reasons IE grain reduction. Sometimes DNR is used because the transfer to a given video format doesn't look look like the original source. Sometimes the transfer will cause exaggerated noise because of the way the film grain interacts with the scan lines of the video format. In these cases and in others the judicial use of DNR can help the video version look more like the original source.

Of course like any useful tool DNR can be abused and a natural looking film can be made to look like plastic, but just because it can be abused doesn't mean its not a useful and sometimes necessary tool. Saying that DNR should never be used is kind of like saying they shouldn't color correct the transfer to make the finished version more like the answer print. I do agree that it should never be obvious that DNR was used.

Doug
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#92
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5/3/08 at 8:04am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
I am however slightly disapointed that they just took the inventory that they previously pulled off the shelf and just rescheduled for re-release. I really hate that a title like We Where Soldiers only got a lame lossy DD track and no lossless track.

We were Soldiers is one of my favorite movies, so i wish a had a copy with lossless sound, but I think with the authoring bottlenecks right now it's better for Paramount to stick with what they have in the way of prior releases and focus on authoring new material. I'd rather they give us Cloverfield and There Will Be Blood now rather than taking the time to re-do what is already available. The current Paramount titles aren't that bad, they could just be better.

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#93
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5/3/08 at 11:07am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
In any case, the thrust of my previous couple posts was to speak against the format war
Then I'm not sure why you felt the need to reply to me, because my point had nothing to do with the format war. Indeed, the irrelevancy of the format war to this issue was the very point.

I'm not talking about theoretical situations in which DNR was applied because of space or bandwidth limitations. I'm talking about specific Paramount transfers to which it was applied excessively for (as best as anyone can tell) "aesthetic" considerations that, IMO and the opinion of other knowledgeable people, are invalid: namely, the elimination of anything that looks like film grain, due to a perception on the part of certain consumers that all grain is bad.

(Note to Doug Monce: I'm well aware that DNR is a legitimate tool when used correctly. If you look at my initial post on this subject, I specifically referred to the "over-DNR'd" transfer of Face/Off.)

You're free to keep talking about the format war if that's where you want to put your energy, but that's the past. This issue affects the future, and to me that makes it more important.

People keep talking about Paramount "doing it right". Well, if Paramount puts out a bunch of Blu-ray discs with lossless audio and VC-1 encodes, but the transfers have DNR at the level of, say, Face/Off and The Untouchables, they will not have gotten it right. IMO, such discs wouldn't be worth owning.

M.
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#94
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5/3/08 at 12:42pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
You're free to keep talking about the format war if that's where you want to put your energy, but that's the past. This issue affects the future, and to me that makes it more important.

People keep talking about Paramount "doing it right". Well, if Paramount puts out a bunch of Blu-ray discs with lossless audio and VC-1 encodes, but the transfers have DNR at the level of, say, Face/Off and The Untouchables, they will not have gotten it right. IMO, such discs wouldn't be worth owning.

M.
I agree with your point about the non-value of discussing the format war at this time and how we should be concentrating our energies towards issues such as excessive DNR transfers. However, I disagree with you that the current HD presentations of Face/Off and The Untouchables aren't worth owning. Both are far from perfect, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they're trash either.





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#95
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5/3/08 at 1:25pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

I guess each of us will have to decide what does and doesn't constitute too much DNR. I would hope that every knowledgeable enthusiast would agree that DNR done solely for the purpose of achieving a grain-free look is wrong. I'd like it if HTF went so far as to state opposition to such alteration, similar to the opposition to P&S.
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#96
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5/3/08 at 1:45pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
However, I disagree with you that the current HD presentations of Face/Off and The Untouchables aren't worth owning. Both are far from perfect, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they're trash either.
I didn't say they were "trash", Crawdaddy. I own 'em both, or I wouldn't be so familiar with their limitations. But I got them for a lot less than I suspect the Blu-rays will be available for, and if I had it to do over, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to upgrade my S-DVDs. The improvement in resolution is seriously undermined by the deliberate removal of numerous textures that such resolution is capable of presenting.

Perhaps I should have qualified my earlier remarks by including "at the price-point I expect Paramount's Blu-ray discs will command".

M.
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#97
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5/3/08 at 2:17pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
I didn't say they were "trash", Crawdaddy. I own 'em both, or I wouldn't be so familiar with their limitations. But I got them for a lot less than I suspect the Blu-rays will be available for, and if I had it to do over, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to upgrade my S-DVDs. The improvement in resolution is seriously undermined by the deliberate removal of numerous textures that such resolution is capable of presenting.

Perhaps I should have qualified my earlier remarks by including "at the price-point I expect Paramount's Blu-ray discs will command".

M.
Michael,
The only thing I had to go on was your use of "wouldn't be worth owning" which is why I use the word "trash". Now that you quantify your comment then I can see your point.





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#98
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5/4/08 at 2:32am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Then I'm not sure why you felt the need to reply to me, because my point had nothing to do with the format war. Indeed, the irrelevancy of the format war to this issue was the very point.

I was responding to your point that the format war was irrelevant or trivial to the matter. And I said, on certain levels, I agreed w/ that. But on certain other levels, I do not -- and then went on to point out various things that the format war probably clouded for certain studios, etc. which could impact their decisionmaking process wrt "doing things right" because "doing things right" probably means a greater commitment than some of them were prepared to give in light of the format war situation (on top of other things), IMHO.

And in the case of Paramount, I even later pointed out how Paramount was a slow starter even back in the earlier days of DVD. And I believe the format war probably added to the matter in this go-around.

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#99
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5/4/08 at 8:16am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben

(Note to Doug Monce: I'm well aware that DNR is a legitimate tool when used correctly. If you look at my initial post on this subject, I specifically referred to the "over-DNR'd" transfer of Face/Off.)

You're free to keep talking about the format war if that's where you want to put your energy, but that's the past. This issue affects the future, and to me that makes it more important.

People keep talking about Paramount "doing it right". Well, if Paramount puts out a bunch of Blu-ray discs with lossless audio and VC-1 encodes, but the transfers have DNR at the level of, say, Face/Off and The Untouchables, they will not have gotten it right. IMO, such discs wouldn't be worth owning.

M.


Michael,

Sorry I couldn't find your original post so I wasn't able to read your ideas in whole. I wasn't really speaking to what you said, just the general notion that DNR is AWAYS bad.

Doug
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#100
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5/4/08 at 2:20pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Don't worry about it, Doug. My point was fairly brief and straightforward, until Man side-tracked it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
I was responding to your point that the format war was irrelevant or trivial to the matter.
No you weren't. You were responding to a simple statement I made (post 36) after Adam G. told us that the Blu-ray of Face/Off would probably use the same transfer as the earlier HD DVD:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
If so, it will serve as a timely reminder that format debates are all well and good, but one principle always remains: garbage in, garbage out. Doesn't matter if the bag is red or blue.
Your history lesson proceeded from there, and even you had to admit that you'd "skewed" my point, at least to some degree, to get where you wanted to go.

Once more, and for the last time: My only concern is with the excessive, unjustified use of DNR to remove grain and textures that should remain in the transfer if it is to represent the film source accurately. It remains my contention that this practice, both as seen in Paramount product and elsewhere, has nothing whatsoever to do with media formats. Instead, it is motivated by an effort to make transfers acceptable to a certain segment of the audience that is allergic to anything in a video presentation that looks like grain.

This is and will continue to be an important issue for anyone who cares about the accurate reproduction of film in the home theater. I mentioned it in this thread simply because Paramount's hi-def product contains some of the most egregious examples to date.

Now, maybe you find it more comforting to relate this problem to the format wars, because those wars are in the past, so maybe this problem is too. I don't see it that way. I see this problem resulting from entirely different factors, ones that will only grow in importance now that there is a single hi-def format attempting to achieve greater market penetration. And I would much rather devote energy to letting studios know that there's a part of the audience that wants accurate tranfers, grain and all, because that's something where we can still have an impact. Whereas telling them that "the industry should've given us one 'ideal' format from the get-go" is, IMO, both irrelevant and a complete waste of time.

M.
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#101
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5/4/08 at 3:59pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

M,

Again, I think you misunderstood the thrust of what I was trying to say.

Yes, you were speaking specifically about the Paramount use of DNR. I was basically pointing out that it's part of a much larger issue (that you probably agree to some extent) and that the format war did probably make matters worse in ways like delaying full commitment to doing things right (or even understanding what "right" means for them). I guess you do not agree w/ my view on the impact of the format war -- and you probably meant as much by calling it "trivial", which was when I went on to elaborate what I meant. That's fine. We just agree to disagree on this.

And no, I'm not suggesting that the format war makes a good excuse for Paramount's pass attempts in HDM. It's just what it was just as how Paramount's commitment in the past w/ DVD is what it was. And I do want them to do better going forward -- and I'm hoping that they will make better efforts now that the format war is indeed behind us. But yes, I would also agree that unless things change, they are not likely to do much better w/ Blu-ray than they did w/ DVD wrt the various aspects mentioned, including the use of DNR and a commitment to higher quality transfers.

_Man_

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#102
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5/5/08 at 9:17am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Now, maybe you find it more comforting to relate this problem to the format wars, because those wars are in the past, so maybe this problem is too. I don't see it that way.

This is not in the past. I attended a Disney Blu-ray "focus group" this week. There were several attendees who are new to BD and were complaining about film grain ("noise") and wanted titles to be cleaned up to remove it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that J6P may start complaining about the black bars on 2.35:1 releases on their widescreen sets. Hopefully the studios will tell them to use the stretch function of their TV .

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#103
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5/5/08 at 9:36am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
I attended a Disney Blu-ray "focus group" this week. There were several attendees who are new to BD and were complaining about film grain ("noise") and wanted titles to be cleaned up to remove it.
Please tell me that you (or someone) spoke up against these yo-yos. They need to be opposed wherever they appear.

M.
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#104
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5/5/08 at 11:37am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
This is not in the past. I attended a Disney Blu-ray "focus group" this week. There were several attendees who are new to BD and were complaining about film grain ("noise") and wanted titles to be cleaned up to remove it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that J6P may start complaining about the black bars on 2.35:1 releases on their widescreen sets. Hopefully the studios will tell them to use the stretch function of their TV .

Sounds like the same people who got 2-disc DVD sets killed because they couldn't figure out which one had the movie on it. These people should have their electricity cut off.

If you want to stem this tide, the only thing you can do, and should do, is to write letters telling them what you want from Blu-Ray, and what you do NOT want. Thecinemalaser.com still has the addresses up. I think it's time to use them.

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

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#105
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5/5/08 at 3:58pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
These people should have their electricity cut off.
"electricity" = "heads".


Cees
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#106
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5/5/08 at 7:01pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
"electricity" = "heads".


Cees

Even I think that's a little much. If they don't have heads, how would they see the errors of their ways when their heads contain their eyes?

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#107
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5/6/08 at 2:06am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

I'm thinking that Bd is going to be primarily embraced by a younger set who buy into for peer/status reasons...not because it is the best technology for realizing source fidelity. The studios are chasing numbers and those numbers are with a demographic that will view HD the way they view Aeropostale, American Eagle, and Abercrombie compared to Faded Glory and Cherokee. Standard def DVD will be just fine for their parents who can't appreciate the difference, but for the 15-35 crowd, Bd is going to be the sexy choice. And grain and source fidelity are qualities that are going to be anathema to these people. I look down the Blu highway and see a lot of frustration to come.
It was great to see someone else who finds The Untouchables to be compromised and not the ideal to strive for. The sad fact is that opinion is very much in the minority. To most people that title DOES represent an ideal catalog presentation.
Makes me want to cry because that is the opinion the studios will serve for likely much of the formats lifespan. And that'll be just fine with the studios, because that will always leave the door open to selling a correct remastered version down the line. But in the near term I see the booboisie ruling the roost.
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#108
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5/6/08 at 6:48am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
And that'll be just fine with the studios, because that will always leave the door open to selling a correct remastered version down the line.
Of course, that assumes the preservation of elements sufficient for the creation of a correctly remastered version. But what if the compromised, over-DNR'd version is treated as the preservation element? Stranger things have happened.

M.
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#109
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5/6/08 at 7:38am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

You're scaring me, Paul and Michael.
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#110
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5/6/08 at 9:38am
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
You're scaring me, Paul and Michael.
You should be more scared by Adam Gregorich's report from his recent experience at a Disney focus group (see post 102 above). 'Cause that shows we're not just theorizing.

M.
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#111
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5/6/08 at 2:38pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
You should be more scared by Adam Gregorich's report from his recent experience at a Disney focus group (see post 102 above). 'Cause that shows we're not just theorizing.

M.
Yeah, I read that. I would like to ask that HTF take a firm stance against such nonsense when communicating with the studios.
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#112
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5/6/08 at 2:54pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
Yeah, I read that. I would like to ask that HTF take a firm stance against such nonsense when communicating with the studios.
It's not like HTF, as an institution, has a direct pipeline to the studios. (I, for one, never talk to studio people.) But we've been talking about the problem internally for a while now.

As great an impact (or possibly greater) would be made if a hue and cry were regularly raised in forum threads when this problem rears its ugly head on existing hi-def discs -- e.g., if, as expected, the Blu-ray of Face/Off appears with the same ugly transfer we've already seen on HD DVD.

Something tells me, though, that I'm whistling in the wind. We have a lot of people who will jump up and down and stamp their feet if a title doesn't contain lossless audio (regardless of how the audio on the disc actually sounds), but most of those same people are nowhere to be found when a video transfer gets trashed with excess DNR.

M.
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#113
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5/6/08 at 3:46pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
As great an impact (or possibly greater) would be made if a hue and cry were regularly raised in forum threads when this problem rears its ugly head on existing hi-def discs -- e.g., if, as expected, the Blu-ray of Face/Off appears with the same ugly transfer we've already seen on HD DVD.
Ok, I'll do my part.
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#114
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5/6/08 at 5:10pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Can we get a good sticky list going of all titles w/ bad DNR issues (and similar quality issues)? IIRC, someone's doing that over on AVS, but one over here would be very helpful too as not all HTF members/visitors regularly visit AVS (or desires to).

Maybe that would help raise awareness better. I for one would love to have such a reference list lying around and readily accessible (whether for my own shopping purposes or for letting others know about the issue).

_Man_

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#115
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5/6/08 at 6:59pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben

As great an impact (or possibly greater) would be made if a hue and cry were regularly raised in forum threads when this problem rears its ugly head on existing hi-def discs -- e.g., if, as expected, the Blu-ray of Face/Off appears with the same ugly transfer we've already seen on HD DVD.

Something tells me, though, that I'm whistling in the wind. We have a lot of people who will jump up and down and stamp their feet if a title doesn't contain lossless audio (regardless of how the audio on the disc actually sounds), but most of those same people are nowhere to be found when a video transfer gets trashed with excess DNR.
M.
Normally, I don't get caught up in PQ technical issues and simply rely on my eyeballs to tell me if a HD picture is acceptable or not but it might help if you explained why you feel the HD-DVD version of Face/Off is such an "ugly transfer" in light of the review posted over at highdefdigest.com.
Quote:
'Face/Off' arrives on HD DVD with a 1080p/VC-1 transfer that delivers everything fans have wanted and more. Colors are vibrant, black levels are deep, and contrast is perfectly balanced -- the previously-released DVD looks like an aging VHS tape by comparison.
"Whistling in the wind" is an apt description of any hue and cry campaign to promote better PQ when viewers can not even come to a universal agreement on the merits/demerits of one particular title. Since everyone's HD set-up is different and, not even mentioning visual issues, I think the best and only way to judge if PQ/AQ is up to snuff is to rent the title before any purchase is made and simply judge for yourself.
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#116
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5/6/08 at 7:07pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

While lossless audio is an important selling point, I also would exspect a video transfer that is done correctly as well. There are a number of HD titles that I did not and will not buy becuase the video quality is on the poor side. I would like to own The Untouchables on Blu-ray but if the video is done poorly then I do not care if lossless is not there. Now there are some titles that if they have a great transfer and no lossless I may not buy or at least hold of til later.

The studios need to take HD seriously and they need to do both the video and audio right on these releases. It is scary if they start listening to the consumers that are basically clueless, those are the ones that can run HD into the ground and kill it. At this time I do not see that happening but it does not help that those particular people might infuence studios, its kinda scary.

1080p High Definition SupporterLossless Audio Supporter Current Library: 221 DVD's / 70 HD-DVD's / 181 Blu-ray's (251 HD Titles)

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#117
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5/6/08 at 7:34pm
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
I don't get caught up in PQ technical issues and simply rely on my eyeballs to tell me if a HD picture is acceptable or not but it might help if you explained why you feel the HD-DVD version of Face/Off is such an "ugly transfer" in light of the review posted over at highdefdigest.com.
I think the explanation is readily apparent: The reviewer you quoted is essentially oblivious to DNR and/or doesn't like film grain and isn't bothered by its absence.

I think I will make a point of reading reviews to see if the reviewer makes any negative comments about film grain (such as "the transfer was beautifully grain-free", etc.) and respond appropriately.
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#118
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5/6/08 at 7:53pm
  • Joined: December 1998
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goko
Normally, I don't get caught up in PQ technical issues and simply rely on my eyeballs to tell me if a HD picture is acceptable or not but it might help if you explained why you feel the HD-DVD version of Face/Off is such an "ugly transfer" in light of the review posted over at highdefdigest.com.
Michael's problem with the transfer is that the use of excessive DNR has not only removed film grain that should remain, but also detail to the picture. This allows the HD DVD not to look like film, but a more glossy presentation lacking in the areas I touched on earlier. Up to a point, I agree with him in regard to those PQ concerns.
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#119
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5/6/08 at 9:24pm
  • Joined: November 2006
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
I would like to own The Untouchables on Blu-ray but if the video is done poorly then I do not care if lossless is not there. Now there are some titles that if they have a great transfer and no lossless I may not buy or at least hold of til later.

The studios need to take HD seriously and they need to do both the video and audio right on these releases. It is scary if they start listening to the consumers that are basically clueless, those are the ones that can run HD into the ground and kill it. At this time I do not see that happening but it does not help that those particular people might infuence studios, its kinda scary.


I don't think The Untouchables is quite as bad as some are suggesting. Yes it has had far too much grain removal to the point that some high frequency information is missing, but it is very watchable and clearly an upgrade in detail from the DVD. Also being that this film was photographed with anamorphic lenses, it's not going to be as apparently grainy as say a super 35 film from the same era.

Personally I would have preferred that they not remove grain if they can help it at all, but the movie is so enjoyable that honestly I don't notice it about 5 min into the film.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#120
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5/6/08 at 9:52pm
  • Joined: February 1998
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Re: Paramount Makes Official Blu-Ray announcement! Read the press release here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Also being that this film was photographed with anamorphic lenses, it's not going to be as apparently grainy as say a super 35 film from the same era.
That's nonsense. It is an oft-repeated but inaccurate claim that Super35 films are automatically grainier than films shot with anamorphic. Many factors influence grain. Shoot anamorphically with fast film in low light, then "push" the film in processing, and you'll get plenty of grain. (And if you don't believe me, I'll cite you to posts in the archive from a professional cameraman.)

I recently re-watched The Untouchables on HD DVD, and while it's not as bad as Face/Off, the actors' faces look like mannequins, especially in close-up. It's because the surface of the film has been digitally "sanded". And yes, the film is terrific and deeply engrossing, but that doesn't mean these things should be overlooked. As indicated by the report from the Disney focus group above, the push is on to make this kind of treatment the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goko
Normally, I don't get caught up in PQ technical issues and simply rely on my eyeballs to tell me if a HD picture is acceptable or not
And how do your eyeballs know whether or not the transfer is accurate?

One of the biggest problems with many, if not most, of today's DVD reviewers is that they no longer watch film. All their viewing is on video; so they no longer have any sense of what constitutes a good reproduction. Just look at the criteria from the review you cited: vibrant colors, deep black levels, balanced contrast. Those sound like the "pop" factors that make people pick out one TV over another on a showroom floor. I don't hear anything about fidelity to the source or picture detail.

And picture detail is what we're talking about. The faces in the HD DVD of Face/Off are artificially smooth. Whenever there's any fast motion -- and this is a John Woo film, so that's often -- things get blurry, because the picture detail that would keep it distinct has been DNR'd away. Is it watchable? Depends on your tolerance. I can; I know at least one person who can't. Is it an accurate transfer? No way.

M.
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