"Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Dave, you don't need to take any of this personally, which it seems you're doing. I'm critiquing the screengrabs not the person (you) who posted it. I don't believe in using screengrabs as the "smoking gun" and the final say in judging PQ. Others may disagree, thats fine. Again I can honestly say during that scene in full motion on a 1080P 70" screen I had a hard time finding the force field effect, it was there but so slight I doubt I would have noticed it if I hadn't purposely looked for it.

It looked nowhere near as accentuated as that screengrab still shot when played in full motion.

Will it look any more pronounced on a larger 1080P display? It might.

As for exaggerating to make a point well seems most everyone is guilty of that, like for example - implying EE and DNR are no big deal to me. Nice dig, huzzah. For the record, it's a big deal if it takes me out of the movie, if I have to pause the screen to find it........ then, well.................

For the record EE shouldn't be applied to any BD but it is. However I can't condemn a disc with slight EE that I barely notice.

Tolerance to DNR will vary I guess. DC wasn't ruined with excessive DNR (like some other titles) and waxy is not the term I'd use but if anyone has a zero DNR tolerance level......well........rental would be the best option.

Michel Hafner, pre-judging PQ based on still screengrabs is against my philosophy, plain and simple. Debating the pros and cons would get us nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree.

Go watch the disc and judge it in full motion, without pausing the screen. Your assessment may not match mine but at least you gave it a fair shot, right?

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Cropped screengrabs are fine, but I hope you guys realize that to judge them accurately you need to estimate the full frame width (from a cropped grab) and then adjust your viewing distance accordingly. having your face a foot away from the screen is just not proper viewing distance.
I was able to sample parts of the disc last night (it was a Warner pre-order so I didn't want to go thru the hassle of trying to cancel it with them. It was also only $16 with tax and shipping) I never saw the film theatrically so my estimations are compromised to begin with. To me, it looked of a similar nature to Pan's Labryinth. Had I not seen screengrabs of more faithful representations of that, I probably would have given it a pass. As it is it is still 'watchable' as is DC - but as Dave Mack has pointed out(somewhere) for a format that engaged in such a hard sell for the longest time, with over the top hyperbole- merely being watchable or 'nicer' than the DVD is damning. What's here is pretty, but not laudable.
It also seems clear that a release that offers filtered, safe from pesky grain, visuals along with touting a bonus disc featuring a copy you can port to a handheld digital device, is NOT a release being created for the serious a/v-phile. It is a release designed to appeal to the vast majority of non-serious PS3 users, who will be jacked into their ipods when they aren't playing games. Can't we just call a spade a spade here? I'm not suprised more and more releases have a filtered look. Look at the audience the studios are chasing with their Bd releases* and it seems that a filtered image like the one here is more than adequete.

*As a 45-50 year old POTA fan, is the 'escape from the Fobidden Zone game' really a strong selling point for me on that release? Blu-ray seems to be the A/V enthusiasts format only by default, not design.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

It's two years, Carlo, and kudos to you for being the first to notice this.

Indeed, if one plays the "Introduction by Alex Proyas" to the director's cut, there's Ebert talking enthusiastically on camera about the film. He hasn't been able to talk for two years now.

Whatever one's personal assessment of this disc, its preparation clearly dates from the early era of HDM. The production pipeline being what it is, we are simply not going to see the impact of the many concerns expressed about the use of DNR until some time in the future -- possibly even next year.

Does that mean those concerns should no longer be expressed? Absolutely not. But it also doesn't mean that any new problematic title that appears should be an occasion for outrage that our concerns are being ignored.

As for the Dark City disc itself, I haven't finished watching it; so I'm going to do something novel and wait until I have before opining on its quality.

M.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Here we go again. More unprovable assumptions about who the studios are chasing as an audience, along with yet another tired attack against the format instead of where the blame truly belongs: the studios.

What the format is capable of and how that capabability is taken advantage of are two different things. The format can deliver everything that A/V enthusiasts want, but if the studios choose not to deliver those wants then who is to blame? The format? I don't think so.

Do you think that these issues would have gone away if HD DVD had won the day? Well I think not. We would still be here complaining about bad transfers, DNR, EE and lack of lossless tracks on releases, because the business practices and decisions of the studios are independent of the format.

I don't care if people complain about the quality of the films on BD, but at least put the blame where it belongs: on the practices of the studios, not on the format. We would be in exactly the same boat if HD DVD had won the day.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I think this assessment is spot-on. That was the release I thought of immediately while watching it. I have yet to take a look at either 'Gangs of New York', 'The Longest Day', or 'Patton', but I suspect that my DNR 'breaking point', given my screen size and viewing distance lies, somewhere in between and probably nearer the Dark City/Pan's Labyrinth end of the spectrum.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Edwin, you may want to keep dragging a dead and buried alternative format into the discussion, but I don't. There are only two formats now DVD and Bd.And the way the studios choose to consistently exploit the format, becomes what the format IS much moreso than dormant, unrealized potential.
What serious A/V-phile, who is willing to pay a premium for HD resolution because he has invested in the gear that will most appreciate it, and regularly takes the time to calibrate that gear, gives a hang about being able to watch the same movie over and over again on a 2" mobile device screen?
On the other hand, how many 15-30 yr old gamers are going to appreciate the added mfg expense of a digital copy? The majority of primary use gamers buy the Bd not because they desire the highest source fidelity, but because it is the 'Abercrombie & Fitch' status format compared DVDs 'Faded Glory'. To this group filtering is just fine because it hews closer to their limited perceptions of what HD is. I make that analogy because I actually know people like this- the only people besides me in my sphere who have any HD capability at all. .
There are two masters here and it is clear which one the studios would RATHER serve. When you tie a video format to the coattails of a game console, the 'gaming crowd' becomes the master, NOT the A/V-phile, though they may squeak the loudest on a messageboard.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I watched this last night and all I have to say, it looked fantastic. A bit soft was all I noticed and that is most likely due to the age of the film. The DTS-MA track was awesome as well. A very well done Blu disc of this film.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

No, I don't want to keep dragging in a dead and buried alternative format. But, I always get the feeling that there is an unsaid subtext being projected when someone keeps emphasizing BDs alleged failure to deliver what its marketing promised, rather than emphasizing the studios failures to deliver quality transfers on that media.

My point is that, regardless of format, we would be facing exactly the same situation as we face now: transfers with DNR and EE applied, as well as releases without lossless tracks because of bad decision making by the studios.

Also, I disagree with the assumption that studios want to serve any master. They couldn't care less about "masters". Their purpose is to capture as wide a group of consumers as they can. If supplying a digital copy, that can be played on a portable device, sells more BDs and captures another market segment then they are going to do it. Serving a "master" has nothing to do with it: serving their own interest at making a profit has everything to do with it.

Also, I noticed in this post you now emphasize the studios poor exploitation of BD as the culprit for the state of BD, while in your other post you were emphasizing Blu-ray's failure to live up to its marketing hype. Nice switch.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Paul, I think you misread what Edwin was saying, which is: it makes no difference which format won the war; the studios' releasing practices would still be the same. I find it difficult to believe that digital copy would be any less prevalent if HD DVD had won the war.

The problem with Dark City is the same problem as Pan's Labyrinth: someone @ the studio decided that an all-purpose 1080p master would be more efficient than creating separate masters for HD and SD. The master is two years old and was created before anyone here (or anywhere else, for that matter) started discussing the merits/problems of DNR/EE on HD media. To blame it on the "gamer demo" is a tired and fruitless argument. The blame squarely lies with the studios.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Again this odd "gamers vs A/V buffs"-angle?

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

It is indeed getting tiresome. This is an old transfer from an old master and they simply released it that way because they did not want to spend any more money on it - there is no secret strategy there. I will believe in a strategy when new movies are regularly released this way, EE, DNR and all, but I hope that day will never come.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Breaking High Definition news:
"Gamers ruined Dark City - suspects still at large.

"We are looking 15-30 year old males with 20" TV, composite cable and "Lara Croft" T-shirt, shouting "DNR, DNR", says the police. The local A/V community is very upset. "We want justice!", says the man identifying him as P_S. Police says, that these same individuals have been causing problems before; "They just don´t want to play their games anymore, now it´s those Blu-ray-films. They demand more sharpness and pop, with less grain and they got that with Patton. We suspect that they´re behind Dark City also". It´s now feared, that the peace that was established after the infamous "format war" is soon to be broken. "Damn those gamers!", shouts P_S, quietly walking away from the scene".

-NY times.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

^^^

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Jari, that was effin' hilarious.

I picked up my copy last night at Fry's. Watched the documentaries, then started on the film (Director's Cut, of course). Only got about 20 minutes in, but I thought it looked pretty great. The EE/DNR doomsday outcry had me a bit worried, but I was happily surprised. This was on my 50" 720p plasma set. Tonight I'll try it on my PS3/1080p LCD setup. Uh-oh, a gaming machine! :-D

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Beware measly gamer - everything you say from now on can and will be held against you

Jari, that was brilliant

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Jari, even I got a good laugh out of that.
Just to be clear- when I use the term 'gamer' I am referring to someone who bought their PS3 primarily as a gaming device. I kind of tend to believe these make up the majority owners of the 11 million or so units out there. I realize the device serves a dual purpose for some weighted more on the movie side, as well as some who use it exclusively for movies. Bd movie sales suggest you guys are in a very distinct minority. When the studios assess the untapped potential sales in this format, it would seem logical they are going to target the several million who already own a device but don't buy movies- in other words, gamers.
As far as digtal copies go, this adds cost across the board. This added effort and cost is undertaken specifically to attract a certain market segment. The enthusiast outrage over Pan's Labyrinth was over 6 months ago. Eyeballing a late July release for DC left plenty of time to secure a better master, while shifting something else up or substituting another release in it's place in the queque.. So rather than putting the effort and the budget available for this release towards a 'more highly defined' master, they chose to put it towards an added bonus that your average over 35 A/V enthusiast is not going to give a shit about. You guys do realize that all these Bd Java games and digital copy discs take money out of the available budgets of these releases? What do you think is more likely in the future- that money in the budget going for an extra digital copy disc, or going to pay a compressionist overtime to make sure the main feature is fully optimized?

And yes, we would be having the same discussion had the other format prevailed-with the caveat that the main outrage would (loudly and falsely) be because the studios were FORCED to use DNR because of the size and bit rate limitations. Things would be even uglier here now. Of that I have no doubt.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Paul, I'm not arguing with your stance, I'm all for best-possible-transfers. However keep in mind that DC has been "in the can" for 2 years. Also keep in mind the costs behind going back and doing it over again. Then factor in the projected sales (probably not high).

The Digital Copy? Peanuts to do. Heck I can use a freeware program on my Mac laptop and make a "digital copy" for use in a portable device in less than an hour.

I don't think the studio was thinking [and I'm making these numbers up] "it would cost $200,000 to make a new transfer...or $200,000 to do a digital copy...screw the new transfer and let's give them the digital copy!" It most likely costs peanuts for them to do the Digital Copy. I mean if I can do it for free over an hour, what kind of resource do they have to do it? They own the files, rather than having to rip them like I do. Probably minutes. Then stick it in the master file for pressing the discs. Very little effort and cost. And given how BD is still not selling like hotcakes, and this title is a niche one at best, I can't say that I disagree if I'm a shareholder/businessman affiliated with New Line. As a fan and consumer, it pisses me off.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

By equating digital copy w/the "gamer demo", you tread precarious ground. Portability of media is something manufacturers have been pushing since the late 80s: anyone remember Sony's first 8mm Video Walkman? What about portable DVD players with built-in screens? Digital copy is something that goes beyond the "gamer demo". My brother owns a portable DVD player with a built-in USB port, and he takes a portable hard drive along with movies pre-loaded so he doesn't have to change discs all the time for his kids. He's a PC gamer, hardly the PS3 "demographic". My daughter (13) was all over the digital copy of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix when it came out, because she could put it on her mp3 player. She's not a gamer, but she wants a PS3 to watch better quality films on Blu-Ray.

This is the problem with all broad-based generalisations (which used to be called "stereotypes"): they never hold up in reality.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I don't see it. Think about what you're saying — that the studios are going to try to make their releases attractive to people who don't buy movies, at the expense of making them unattractive to people who do buy movies. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush", & it doesn't make sense to alienate actual buyers in the hope of attracting a larger number from the pool of potential buyers unless you're very sure it's going to work. Easier to issue releases that your regular movie buyers will like, & assume that they won't alienate too many of your occasional buyers.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

The above is also my feeling how Dark City (Blu-ray) was authored.

Just finished watching it on my 110" screen in it's entirety.

Purchased the Blu-ray for $18.95 at Amazon.
Noticed the DNR and EE in several parts which was disappointing, but I can't say I wasn't warned by RAH and others.

The last scenes that were filmed in the sunlight were particularly soft, which I would compare to DVD quality softness.
A couple of scene close-ups taken earlier, with the detective, were also comparably soft.

The movie itself was great!

Wouldn't recommend the disc to buy for the above reasons but would rent for entertainment.

Paul

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

The people that are hung up on the preservation of the highest frequency detail, are but a minority within a minority.
Yes I do honestly think the studios would sacrifice 5K-10K sales in the hopes of snagging 80K-1000K from a pool of over several million that think HD should always be smooth and shiny and who may want a respite from 7 straight hours of MSG8.
And while the digital copy disc mayy seem like peanuts, it increases costs across the board from production to packaging to increased shipping weight. The corporations involved don't dismiss a fration of a % in added cost per unit. It is a very real figure to them...which is why most studios dispensed with printed inserts in regular dvds years ago.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Sure sure, I understand your point. But I´m not that sure, that how many of these PS3 owners are purely "gamers", since after all PS3 is more like a "entertainment system", including games, Blu-ray, DVD, photos, MP3s, etc. So many people (eventually) probably use their console also for movies, even when their primary reason was to get new "game console".

How many Blu-ray-titles these people will eventually buy is probably another matter, but I would say that it´s more than many believe.. I don´t have any official info on this one, though (nor I claim that with PS3, "gamers" are suddenly buying huge load of movies). But still.

But my point was (is), that why divide people into these little groups ("gamers", "movie buffs", "A/V buffs", etc etc) in the first place? You buy PS3 for the games, but then you try those "fancy Blu-ray"-titles and actually see the quality in your own living room ("Wow, I´ll be getting more of these!"). You buy PS3 for the Blu-ray movies, but then you try "Metal Gear Solid 4" and see that the quality and "cinematic" values of the modern games ("Wow, games have really changed, I like this!"). Some people watch some movies, play some games, watch photos with their friends, etc. ("Wow, I just like entertainment!"). So there are no rules that are carved in stone. You can be "movie buff" playing games, or "gamer" watching movies. Or, you can be just "person" watching films and playing games.

I just feel, that dividing people in the different camps (or better yet, actually "blaming" e.g. gamers for wanting "DNR" or something) is quite useless and it´s only causing useless debate in the long run.


I probably missed some earlier points of these "digital copies" (and I missed their "connection" to "gamers", and to the "main feature optimizing" issues .. ), but I pretty much agree. I have no use of these "digital copies" (which you can then play in your computer etc) and I don´t fully see why they´re included in the Blu-ray-releases. We finally got rid of those "combo discs" (sorry again, I know that some people liked them), but now we have to deal with those "digital copies".. Always some additional, "downgraded" versions (that most of us won´t ever need) are "forced fed" to us.. So I guess we´re on the same page with this one.

What comes to "profile 2.0"-extras and "BD-Java"-games, I could live without those also. "Extras" for me means interviews, commentaries, deleted scenes, behind-the-scenes-footage, etc. I have no real use of "Java games" (I have three consoles, dammit.. ) etc. But you know, I guess they won´t take *that* much space in the end..

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Gotcha, Jim. My copy got here today so I will watch it tonite after mini-Mack is down, even though I have to get up at 5:30am for work!

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

This is pretty much standard practice throughout the industry now for anything shot on film.

The general consensus is that you get better results down-converting the HD version to SD than you do making a SD version directly.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

True, but in order for it to compress efficiently in MPEG-2 for DVD, some film grain has to be removed and in some cases edge enhancement applied, which is what appears to have happened with Pan/s Labyrinth and Dark City.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Started watching the DC 14 minutes ago.
The EE around the cops IMHO IS just as bad as in the screengrabs.
So far a mixed bag. certain shots look excellent. Visible grain, no EE. Some look horribly processed like the shots of Connely in the meeting with Kiefer in his office. Smeary, soft with motion artifacts. Interesting in that just seems to be her shots and not Kiefer's, (in the A/B cutting) Perhaps Connely's takes had to be pushed? The resultant image might have been much grainier than the reverse angle shots so they DNR'd just those? But I am watching it via FP on a 92" screen so these things will be more noticeable.
Anyways, so far overally pretty good. I DO like Connely's singing voice on the DC instead of the dubbed over version in the TC. The other girl might be more of a pro singer but it always seemed phony. The voice didn't match Connely. This is better IMHO.



edit: almost done. It happens several more times in scenes with Connely. When she meets Murdoch for the first time back in the apt. the weird smeary DNR happens again and later with Bill Hurt in a scene. Just odd.

edit: finished it. Intersting in that they added blue streaky lights to the big showdown scene FX. makes the miniatures look a bit less miniaturey. Anyways, good but not great IMHO. The EE is visible in more than 1/2 of the shots and to me it's distracting. It also looks too slick and not like film to me. Like it's been digitally polished a bit too much.
Afterwards I popped in The Lost Boys which has no EE at all that I can see and looks way less processed. Much better looking and it's considerably older.

Oh well, so close. The color, black levels all look really good. Too bad they couldn't just let it look more like a film. Still worth it and a great film but it should have looked better. A shame in a way.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Just finished watching the DC of DC, PS3->Sony KDS-60A3000, viewing distance of 12'. As others have said, room for improvement, but nothing that was a showstopper.

What was noticeable is the completely different feel of the film given the slower pacing, added scenes, alternate takes and lines, and largely muted score. It's as if the original version was so frenetic they used music to bolster that hurried, rushed feel to the film, but the new version was slow so they pulled back on it.

Loved the original but feel the new cut surpassed it in many ways. The new pacing takes getting used to, but once you make that switch, the ride is as enjoyable (if not more so).

I'll admit, I was too absorbed in the new cut to dissect the transfer too much. But for me, nothing egregious to take me out of the film. And yes, Connelly's singing matched much better.

And all I have to say is: "Sayonara voiceover!"

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

It's your right to stick your head in the sand concerning stills. And the way you watch your stuff they probably show details you are simply not going to see this way. So they exaggerate for you. But they show what's on the disk, plain and simple. And some day you might see it yourself too, when you switch to front projection, sit closer or just pay more attention than now to specific image properties.
I have compared enough stills with projection at normal speed to have an idea how stills relate to the film in motion. The motion makes DNR often even worse!
I could ask you to go watch the disc on a 3.5m wide screen as I do to see what I see.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Yeah, but the HD is not supposed to be dumbed down for the SD version derived from it. That must be limited to the SD version only. And even there such waxy smeary DNR has no place these days.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

But you simply couldn't, could you?



Cees