Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I can't very well rally around a format that isn't releasing films that I want to see.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

IMO, the reason why Close Encounters BRD didn't sell as many units as they wanted is because it was priced too high for the market. Not many people except serious film buffs/HT enthusiast are going to spend that amount of money on one film even if it has different versions of it on this release.





Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Then we do reap what we sow. Studios are not in the habit of losing money.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Well, then I guess the format is doomed afterall...

But I should add that my comment was not really directed at you since you do put your $$$ where your mouth is, not just constantly complain about the format and how it's doomed, etc. etc.

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Does anyone know how Blade Runner did? It seems a good film for comparison as it also had many versions, tons of extra, but was more reasonably priced.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

You're right I really don't think it's doomed because I think the studios are smart enough to figure out pretty quickly where their market is and the prices that market will bear. I just hope they do that sooner rather than later.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I may end up finding out that I'm not the target market for the studios. If that is the case, and blu-ray does end up being a limited market, then there may not be much for me to watch in HD. Hopefully the market will broaden enough that a fair number of classic films will be released.

I must say that I have been very happy with Warner and Universal for releasing a good number of classic catalog titles in HD over the last 2 years. Sony seems to be going in that direction too having released a film like 20 Million Miles to Earth. Hopefully they will keep it up.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I think it's much too early to say for sure. Without a doubt there needs to be further market penetration to enhance catalog sales. I always thought that classic title releases on HD would be much slower than they are for recent films due to obvious reasoning beyond just market-related issues. It simply takes a lot more capital investment to get classic films ready for HDM releases in comparison to newer films. I can't blame the studios for being careful at this stage due to the limited number of units being sold per catalog title.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Oh I agree. It's one of the reasons I was so surprised at Sony putting out 20 Million Miles. As I said I think Warner in particular has been great at getting out classic titles. But they seemed to think that HD DVD was the market for those at least at the start. I hope that now that HD DVD has gone away, they don't decide that the market for classic titles had gone away with it.

I really don't have very serious concerns about this, it's just the things that float around the back of my mind.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I've actually bought more discs than Doug has this year,apparently. Two on the dead format (Zodiac and Atonement) and one on Bd (Michael Clayton). Like Doug though I don't see anything until June that I would consider picking up without the incentive of a BOGO sale. Though Tosh was less than candid with their player sales figures until after the hammer fell, I still (foolishly?) take them at their word that production costs were overall lower. I always thought that contributed to Universals liberal release policy. I can't see half those titles making it to bd anytime soon even though they would likely be an easy port. That is why I always felt, and still do that the argument that mass marketizing the format is the only (or best) way to get quality catalog titles is advancing from a premise concieved to support greed filtered optimism. I.e. who wants the royalties from a low unit moving format. Sony invested too much money to get its returns from low runs. Bd NEEDS to be a mass market product to justify itself. If the dead format could have yielded the same or similar margin on significantly fewer units...that is the format that would have been the best hope for us (content fans). If you need 100,000 units on Bd to realize the same net revenue that 50,000 units on the other format would have, then the winner is setting itself up to chase a dragon it will never catch. This is a medium for the few and the passionate- not the many,the fickle, and the cost conscious. Hey time will tell and I hope I'm way off base on this...I just think a lot of peoples optimism here is not based on a sober understanding of who is going to be supporting this stuff week in an week out. And who doesn't have any interest in doing so..
Then again, maybe Tosh found that it's format really wasn't positioned any better and they were honest with themselves about the ceiling of the enthusists enthusiam.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

For the next three months starting in April, I decided to list the titles that I'm considering buying whether on SD DVD or Blu-ray. As you can see my taste in film is rather broad since I'm one of these people that can watch a film silent like "Phantom of the Opera" in the morning then later that evening pop in "Transformers" in HD. Anyway, I won't stop buying SD DVDs if I feel the title in question will never make it onto BR or at least in the foreseeable future.

• The Bette Davis Collection Volume 3 SD DVD
• Bette Davis Centenary Celebration Collection SD DVD
• Woody Woodpecker and Friends Volume 2 SD DVD
• Easy Living SD DVD
• The Major and the Minor SD DVD
• Midnight SD DVD
• She Done Him Wrong SD DVD
• Fall of the Roman Empire SD DVD
• Hidalgo BR
• Unbreakable BR
• A Passage to India BR
• First Knight BR
• Juno BR
• The Bridges of Madison County SD DVD
• The Big Trail SD DVD
• Fox Western Classics: The Gunfighter, Garden of Evil & Rawhide SD DVD
• Frank Sinatra: The Golden Years SD DVD
• Sergeants 3 SD DVD
• Day of the Outlaw SD DVD
• The Gunfight at Dodge City SD DVD
• Man of the West SD DVD
• Man with the Gun SD DVD
• The Westerner SD DVD
• The Way West SD DVD
• The Secret Invasion SD DVD
• The Secret of Santa Vittoria SD DVD
• Thief of Bagdad SD DVD
• Three Stooges Collection Volume 2 SD DVD
• The Fire Within SD DVD
• The Devil's Own BR
• Twister BR
• National Treasure BR
• Rambo: First Blood BR
• The Furies SD DVD
• High Noon SD DVD
• Popeye the Sailor Volume 2 SD DVD
• Man of a Thousand Faces SD DVD
• Patton BR
• Dirty Harry: Ultimate Collector's Edition BR

The following are BR titles that I would've bought if Fox was more reasonable in their pricing for catalog titles on BR. It isn't that I can't afford them, but rather the principle of the matter.

• Commando
• Predator
• Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
• Master & Commander
• The Longest Day
• The Sand Pebbles

Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I always thought that HDM would be the more expensive brother to SD DVD with a market penetration greater than LD, but well short of SD DVD or VHS. Also, that BR and SD DVD will co-exist for a long time. The point of the studios giving us more titles to be excited about is well taken, they simply can't live off of new titles only with their BR releases because they're simply not enough good films of that kind to sustain this new format. Fox has some titles that I really like, but not at their price structure. Warner needs to add on more titles besides the Dirty Harry and Twister films. Sony, Paramount and Universal need to do something for the second of this year too.






Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Agreed.

We went through the same thing with DVD too. Nothing new. And we got all our classics in good time.

I'm baffled by some folks seeming to think that HDM needs to present a fully mature/adopted product day-one without allowing any time/room for a growth-curve (like they did with DVD).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Which members are saying that? Let's not mistake impatience for classics on BR to expecting the same amount of releases that SD DVD is giving us now. As we are asking to give BR and the industry some slack to respond to the market, can't we do the same to early adopters towards the industry, who happen to be classic film lovers?






Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

They (the studios) can't suddenly release every movie ever made instantly. I would rather they take their time and get it right, than to quickly release stuff with current masters etc.

They need to get the money coming in via the "blockbusters" and new releases before they can afford to start revisiting the older movies. To expect otherwise doesn't make sense to me.

It took the DVD format many years before studios got to the older movies. But now, with Blu-Ray, it seems that a lot of people already expect them to have all these titles available

Give it time folks. Geesh.

On a slightly different note I have noticed the #1 movie on amazon right now is the Blu-Ray version of "I am Legend". It has been at the top the last few days. I think it is a good sign that a BR movie is beating out standard dvds.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

There will always be a market for Blu-Ray.

Laserdisc survived nearly 20 years with practically no market acceptance.

If Laserdiscs survived, you can be damn sure Blu-Ray is going to rock for many years to come

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Sorry, but this is a incorrect assumption. If anything, HD DVD's classics sold much much worse. In March 2007, Nielsen released numbers that showed that sales of Warner's early classics (i.e. "Forbidden Planet", "Grand Prix", "Robin Hood", etc.) had totaled less than a thousand copies each in the 4-6 months since their release. No official numbers were released, but the estimates on the ST:TOS set was only about 7500 copies in it's release week, which was also it's strongest. This wasn't a Blu-ray problem, nor is it their problem going forward.
Look, there's no point in arguing about "disingenuous" numbers. Everybody up to and including Toshiba admitted non-PS3 Blu-ray players were outselling HD DVD players. The numbers game is over.
As mentioned before, much bigger and well-regarded films didn't do well on either format.
You don't even want to bother with ways to try to help hi-def make it big? Then really, there's no need for you to post here. With console add-ons making up 30%-50% of HD DVD players, and "Transformers" the #1 HD DVD, the demographics were poor for classics on both sides. It doesn't help that the primary HD download services are, if anything, skewed to the demographics you disparage. We have a chance to be productive about where HDM can go, no matter how small. But if you don't want that, in seems that your only purpose to post in these threads is to be negative. And I can't say you're being a "realist", because you either ignore or don't know the realities, and others (such as the admins) with more info are at least willing to put on the enthusiast badge.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I had forgotten about the National Treasure films and Passage to India. Defiantly adding those to the list on Blu-ray.

I agree that I'll be buying SD DVDs for some time to come. I'm far too big a fan of film noir and 50s westerns to pass them up just because they aren't on HDM.

BTW which version of Thief of Bagdad is that?

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Doug,

RE: Thief of Bagdad

The Criterion Collection: The Thief of Bagdad by Ludwig Berger, Michael Powell & Tim Whelan

Robert, nice list. As you (and Doug) have noted, there are simply too many great SD releases to simply ignore them in favor of HD media.

- Walter.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

That was not proven nor disproven by what happened. The marketplace was short-circuited by Sony's payoffs at the end and probably at the beginning. The marketplace for hd is not going to develop as quickly as sd because sd still provides a more than acceptable way of watching movies. This whole notion of consumer confusion was nothing more than an excuse. There is no consumer confusion. One poll in december showed that price was the sole criteria among second wave adopters. A pricegrabber.com poll in January showed again price was the determining factor and that br would have to come way down. When you look at hd-dvd vs bluray disc sales, they were evening out on titles released in both formats.

I do believe that there will be two formats. One will be bluray and one will be
more of a value priced format. That format will develop outside of the US.

The numbers are important. Sony was better at gaming the numbers than Toshiba was. Sony released titles like 20 Million Miles to Earth not because they would sell but they just wanted a lot of product. Even if they don't sell well, they add up. Sony wanted the weekly sales figures to say br 65% and hd-dvd 35%. They know most people aren't going to realize it is because br is releasing more titles to get those numbers. Since Sony does not have that competition anymore, I believe you are going to see fewer classic titles.

Also Close Encounters is a disaster for Sony if it made only a little money. I
have no doubt that Sony's expectations were very high. It certainly would be considered an event title. It begs a question if that doesn't sell on hd, what will? Warner's classic titles on br didn't sell much better than hd-dvd and in some instances hd-dvd sold a few more. Also I think that Star Trek's final numbers were pretty good on hd-dvd.

As to VHS, that certainly was the golden age of home video for me. The number of titles released has yet to be surpassed. The reason was that the
barriers to entry were so low that almost anyone could get in. Third party suppliers provided a plethora of titles. Unfortunately that has not happened with dvd and is unlikely to happen with bluray. I have been scouring ebay for these videocassetes so I can transfer them to dvd. I have bought titles like Dark Side of the Moon, Crash, Cat Creature, Disaster on the Coastliner, and Curse of the Black Widow recently. I still have Who's Minding the Mint, Hanger
18, The Gorgon, The Aliens Are Coming on VHS. I also have tapes from companies like Universal that have not made it to dvd.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I fully agree. I also want different films, genres, releases - "old" and "new". Aspect ratio can be anything from 4:3 to 2.70:1. With audio, I prefer lossless audio etc, but I can live with plain Mono also in some cases.

I have never (fully) understood this "HD doesn´t have enough variety"-talk. Sure, compared to SD DVD it´s quite obvious that Blu-ray is behind (and will be for some years), but I actually feel that there´s plenty of "variety" with Blu-ray.

Let´s take e.g. Sony (which some people "love to hate"):

Sony has released European films like "'The Lives of Others", "Black Book", "Volver", and "Run Lola Run", they´ve also some animes like "Tekkon Kinkreet" and "Paprika", modern CGI-anime like "Surf's Up" and "Open Season", 50s monster flicks like "'20 Million Miles to Earth", action/sci-fi films like "The 6th Day", "Resident Evil"-trilogy, "Underworld"-films and "Spider-Man"-trilogy, blockbusters like "Casino Royale (2006)" and "Black Hawk Down", different type of comedies like "Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story", "Daddy Day Camp" and "Monty Python's Life Of Brian", horror like "30 Days Of Night", "Hostel" (1&2) and "Bram Stoker's Dracula", TV-series like "Damages" and "The Company", true classics like "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind", crime/dramas like "Revenge", "Donnie Brasco" and "Memento".. Hell, even Bollywood is coming ("Saawariya").

Thank you Sony. At least they´ll get my money.


Yes, this is what we all film fans/HT-buffs should now do. If you can´t get over the format war and some very unfortunate events that followed (many people "lost" their format of choice), it´s probably best to take some time of from the various forums.

"Uncle Blu-ray" needs you now! Join up!

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Like I pointed out before, this is very shortsighted thinking. Who said BD production costs will always be higher than HD DVD and DVD?? DVD production costs were pretty high too in the first couple years before economies of scale took over and drove costs down. THIS is why we need BD to gain wider market acceptance *first* before we can expect too much embracing of the smaller market of classic catalog titles. When the production costs come down, that will help make the less popular titles become feasible. That's what happened w/ DVD, and yes, it's become clear that it's even more true w/ HDM.

But part of my point about rallying around the format is that the studios have not actually completely stopped releasing classic catalog titles, have they? And are *you* (and your brethren) going to let them know that *you* (and your brethren) want them to release such by actually going out and buying them and offer feedback wherever/whenever possible (and not only the negative variety nor all this doomsday stuff on the web)? And really, even if you have absolutely no interest in buying the more mainstream popular titles, constantly talking about how BD is doomed, etc. etc. will just scare other people alway rather than help give the format a real chance (so that it might eventually give you what you want).

Have a little patience. If you actually want something out of the format, then do what you can to help it get there rather than working against it w/ all this doomsday stuff. If enough of you doomsayers keep this up, you just might scare off enough of average folk and turn this into a self-fulfilling prophecy...

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Oooooh! I want that one. That was a favorite from my childhood days -- I even saw it in some sort of theatrical re-release way back when and was one of those films that really made a movie lover out of me. Nice to see Criterion getting around to this one.

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I still do not own a bluray player so I have this question. There is a lot of discussion about when classics will be released on bluray. Besides any bonus additions, is there really any benefit? Do the original copies look good enough? Weren't movies made in the 60s, 70s , & 80s, filmed on tape and not digitally? So how can the quality be improved upon with bluray?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I'll leave it to Doug or someone else to answer this in more detail, but the short answer is that film already has more picture information than can be accurately displayed by Blu-ray Disc, so there is definitely room for improvement. TV shows shot on video tape, such as Miami Vice, or movies shot on less than 1080p camcorders, such as 28 Days Later, may not benefit much or at all. However, it is this very misconception that is going to prove to be a huge hurdle for BD to overcome if mass adoption is going to occur.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

99% of movies shown in theaters have been shot on 35mm film since it was invented by William Dickson and Thomas Edison in 1892. Even films made in the silent days have more information on the original negative (assuming the original negative still exists) than HDTV is able to display.

It is generally accepted that 35mm film has in excess of twice the resolution of 1080p HDTV. Also HDTV has a very limited color space and is incapable of displaying all the colors that can be visible with projected 35mm film.

If you want to be startled, sometime watch Casablanca (1942) or The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) in HD sometime. Just amazing how much you can see in HD that you just can't see on standard DVD.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Miami Vice was actually shot and edited on film. Shooting on film and editing on video tape didn't start until about 1987 or 88. Very few drama shows in the U.S. are or were shot on video tape. Tape was pretty much only used for sitcoms, and even then many sitcoms such as Friends were actually shot on film.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Thanks for correcting me. I could've sworn I read here that Miami Vice was shot on video tape. Anyway, that's good to know. I'd love to see that show makes it way to HDM at some point, but the current SD incarnation leaves much to be desired. Without getting too far off-topic, could I be thinking it was shot on video tape because the source for the SD DVDs used some syndicated video tape source?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Strictly in terms of genres and film types I believe that Bd does a good job of representing a wide variety of films. In terms of support for older films (particularly when one eliminates Warner titles for the purpose of looking at the releases from other studios) I am underwhelmed. I realize that it takes years for older films to come out but I think Bd's track record to date is poor in this area.

Blu-ray breakout by decade / era

1957 - 1969 - 10 / 465 - 2.15% - 8 WB, 1 CTS, 1 MGM
1970 - 1979 - 15 / 465 - 3.22% - 9 WB, 2 Anchor Bay/Starz, 2 MGM, 2 CTS
1980 - 1989 - 28 / 465 - 6.02%
1990 - 1999 - 55 / 465 - 11.83%
2000 - 2008 - 316 / 465 - 67.96%
Unknown - Musical / Special Interest mostly - 41 / 465 - 8.82 %

This is based on title information from Download the most complete DVD list on the Web

- Walter.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I plan on getting those 2 when they hit Blu-ray.

_Man_