Home Theater Forum  ›  Forums  ›  Other Diversions  ›  After Hours Lounge  ›  Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

#1
Rating: 0
Sorry for the contentious title, but I figured ' why so little blind testing?' might not get the same response.

What this is about is reviews of most home theater equipment that we read in magazines, etc (though it could apply to many other reviews). Let's take a typical example. Reviewer gets a new DVD player from Company X to review. Chances are that player is provided free on extended loan, reviewer will no doubt have enjoyed hospitality of the said company at one of more corporate events, etc. This instantly raises the possibility of bias, but let's assume the reviewer is incorruptable. He or she then plugs the player into a home theater system and sees how it performs. Okay, if s/he does some technical tests, these have an objectivity to them, but what about the subjective impressions? The reviewer knows what they're reviewing, will have all sorts of preconceptions (not least based on price), and these will all colour his or her judgment.

I teach psychology, and if the rawest of raw freshmen produced a study like that, I would personally lynch them as a warning to other students not to waste my time. The whole home theater review process is just so plain wrong that it would never be countenanced in the behavioural sciences. So why on earth is it allowed to continue in nearly all magazines, review sites, etc? I find it amusing and ironic that magazines that will produce streams of technical data about response rates, frequency responses and goodness knows what else can make such an elementary mistake.

There is of course a way round it, called blind testing. In the case of a DVD player, the reviewer would have an assistant who would hide the player and all the reviewer would see would be the picture produced on the screen. This would then be compared against several other players (again, their identities hidden) and each would be graded separately. Only at the end of this blind appraisal would the reviewer find out their grading of the DVD player under assessment. Thus, any subjective opinions would be based purely on the product and not on the bias of expectation, etc.

But as things stand, we have an assessment process that is so unreliable it's a farce. And in the process the consumer stands a good chance of getting ripped off.

So why don't critics do blind testing? Might it be that if they did we'd find that there's far less difference between products than they'd like to admit?
Export to Wiki
#2
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

> So why on earth is it allowed to continue in nearly all magazines, review sites, etc?

Because of a little concept we like to call free speech?
Export to Wiki
#3
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew markworthy
So why on earth is it allowed to continue in nearly all magazines, review sites, etc?
Because advertisers pay them to do that kind of work.

"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

Export to Wiki
#4
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Andrew, your posts get the most bizarre responses. ... free speech? ... because they're paid? Weird.

(Another recent post, regarding resolution, was equally strange.)

But anyway, here's my stream-of-consciousness guesses.

(1) People aren't smart enough to know about the concept of blind testing. I don't really give this one much credence, as HT people are usually pretty bright.

(2) It’s too hard to do economically and expediently. I think most reviewers would normally want to tweak the equipment. Doing that without actually having direct access to the hardware would be inconvenient at best.

(3) Most of us are willing to treat audio/video reviewers much like we do film reviewers. What I mean is that since opinion/bias comes into play so much in these kind of reviews, it’s best to find a reviewer (or review organization) who you generally agree with and then trust them to continue to report in the same vein. E.g., When I read an Ebert review after I’ve already seen a film I generally agree with him. So when I’m looking for advice on what film to watch I can pretty much trust his rating.

On the flip side, groups like Consumer Reports do use techniques like you suggest. (Though I’m not sure they’re all blind.) And I find they are usually extremely dry and lifeless. Yeah, they can tell me that one monitor’s picture has the same contrast ratio as another – but that usually doesn’t clue me into whether I’ll like the set in real world use. I guess where I’m heading with this is that the hardware is more than a sum of it’s technical specifications.

Or maybe I’ve just been brainwashed by marketing.
Export to Wiki
#5
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Andrew,

This is exactly why I consider many of these magazines (especiall the high end ones) little more than marketing tools, and why I pay attention almost exclusively to the "real world" experiences of people on forums such as this one instead.
Export to Wiki
#6
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Well it's not that your argument isn't necessarily true, but for the most part everything you wrote is a little absurd.

You can cover up all the names of a product if you want but it's not going to hide anything. If I were reviewing a Sony DVD player for instance, everything from the styling of the unit, the design of the remote controls, and the on screen XMB is going to tell me quite clearly that its a Sony. If I were reviewing a car and they gave me a Ferrari and covered up the Horse and badges, I'd still know it was a Ferrari without even turning it on.

No, I think the real problem I get from reading your post is that no one seems to be willing to trust anyone anymore.

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

Export to Wiki
#7
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

These guys are fairly good: Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity . Their reviews use a set of objective tests and they will often 'pan' expensive items. They will also give glowing reviews to items that perform 'well enough' but are cheap.

Feline videophiles Susie and Dukie.

Export to Wiki
#8
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
You can cover up all the names of a product if you want but it's not going to hide anything. If I were reviewing a Sony DVD player for instance, everything from the styling of the unit, the design of the remote controls, and the on screen XMB is going to tell me quite clearly that its a Sony. If I were reviewing a car and they gave me a Ferrari and covered up the Horse and badges, I'd still know it was a Ferrari without even turning it on.

Perhaps. I doubt it would be that hard to set up a blind testing system if you were actually committed to the process. The fact that most reviewers won't do it even when it would be painfully easy, as in wires or interconnects. Of course, rumor has it that the known universe will explode if you hook up a pair of $10k interconnects to a switching device of any sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
No, I think the real problem I get from reading your post is that no one seems to be willing to trust anyone anymore.

How far should I trust someone trying to tell me that a $1,000 optical cable or $5,000 electrical wires are worth the money, but who refuses to do a blind test?

Lay down your law books now, they're no damned good -- The Eagles

Export to Wiki
#9
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
You can cover up all the names of a product if you want but it's not going to hide anything. If I were reviewing a Sony DVD player for instance, everything from the styling of the unit, the design of the remote controls, and the on screen XMB is going to tell me quite clearly that its a Sony. If I were reviewing a car and they gave me a Ferrari and covered up the Horse and badges, I'd still know it was a Ferrari without even turning it on.

If I read the OP correctly, I think Andrew was referring to the PQ of the DVD player which would be easy to set up as a blind test.

But you're right, if you are going to review the asthetics, menu layout, remote control, etc of the DVD player that would be difficult to do as a blind test. However, I think Andrew was referring to the PQ.
Export to Wiki
#10
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
You can cover up all the names of a product if you want but it's not going to hide anything.
Blind means you don't see the product at ALL, so your point is moot.
Export to Wiki
#11
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

So how do you blind-test how well a car drives?
Export to Wiki
#12
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Hire the Miracle Worker.
My Collection
Export to Wiki
#13
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
Blind means you don't see the product at ALL, so your point is moot.

And you can't fully review a product if you can't even see it, so the entire idea is moot. If I read a review of a DVD player I'd like to know how the remote is, what kind of setup options it has, or whether it has pink flame decals on the box.

I did consider the idea that you could do blind tests on the picture/sound quality etc. alone, but at SOME point you'd have to know what it is you're reviewing --thus "tainting" the results regardless.

Then I considered the idea of two separate reviewers, one who would blindly test the respective subjects, on one to do the rest. But again, this all comes down to trust. If you have to have people go to these lengths for you to believe them, then why would you believe them at all? How do you KNOW they really did that blind test, hmm?

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

Export to Wiki
#14
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
But again, this all comes down to trust. If you have to have people go to these lengths for you to believe them, then why would you believe them at all? How do you KNOW they really did that blind test, hmm?
It's not a matter of "trust". It's methodology. It's a well known fact that human beings are influenced by their biases (as well as such things as slight volume differences, etc.). We ALL have them, and it's no attack on anyone's "character" to say so. The blind test simply removes the possibility of such bias. But of course, these magazines aren't interested in giving you an unbiased evaluation. They're interested in having you buy what their revenue source wants you to buy. That's why I said they're basically marketing tools. And of course the blind test only refers to picture/sound, not ergonomics, appearance, etc.
Export to Wiki
#15
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Garrett was on the right track. Magazines survive not only on retail sales and subscriptions, but also on the advertising revenue. And no magazine will jeopardize that revenue by giving a negative opinion on an advertiser's products. Instead, the reviewers have to weasel their way around a product's shortcomings.

So contrary to Chris' belief, free speech doesn't help them behave the way they do. It's the THREAT of SUPPRESSION of free speech that COMPELS them to behave the way they do.

That, and the risk of being without a paycheck.
Export to Wiki
#16
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

While I do see [and largely agree] with the original post, I don't think it's quite as bad as implied. I have read scathing reviews of certain products, but I have read many more positive or indifferent reviews of products I knew to be marginal at best. In the end, it will always be up to the individual to cross reference any review with a few others, [some non-professional] and then make up their own mind. There are plenty of sources for end user reviews available online. Why settle for someone elses opinion when you can form your own?

***Who do I trust? ME!*** (Scarface)

John

"The names Francis Sawyer, but everybody calls me "Psycho."
Any of YOU guys call ME Francis, and I'll kill ya!"

My Home Theater
My BlogMy Travels

Export to Wiki
#17
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
So how do you blind-test how well a car drives?
You can't. Nor could you do it with e.g. sports equipment, etc. That hardly is an argument against doing it where you can, though, is it?

Quote:
And you can't fully review a product if you can't even see it, so the entire idea is moot.
Of course there are some things that can't be done anonymously - but to adapt the argument I've just made, that isn't an argument for not doing it for those bits of the product where you can. And in any case, when it comes to visual appearance, why the **** do you need a reviewer to make your mind up on that point? A photograph of the device plus (if appropriate) the remote will give you the information you need. Since most reviewers seem to be permanently stuck in a boy toy level of aesthetic judgement, I wouldn't trust them anyway. However, in the interests of being conciliatory, I suppose we could just about trust their subjective judgement of how easy it is to press the buttons on the remote.


Quote:
On the flip side, groups like Consumer Reports do use techniques like you suggest. (Though I’m not sure they’re all blind.) And I find they are usually extremely dry and lifeless.
Agreed - but that doesn't invalidate the technique of blind testing, only the way in which it's presented. Though to be honest, a good objective review is likely to be dry. But there again, how quickly does one tire of reading how the reviewer attained orgasmic heights listening to the latest AV amp from Company X and how we must all rush out and buy it, knowing full well that a couple of months later the same cliched phrases will be used about the latest AV amp from Company Y, and how we must rush out and buy it and what a tired, dated and unsatisfactory thing the most recent AV amp from Company X is? Lively prose has its place, but there are limits.

Quote:
Because of a little concept we like to call free speech?
Damn - my thinly disguised attempt to suppress the free world by asking why we can't have accurate reviews has been uncovered.
Export to Wiki
#18
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
I did consider the idea that you could do blind tests on the picture/sound quality etc. alone, but at SOME point you'd have to know what it is you're reviewing --thus "tainting" the results regardless.

I disagree. The blind-test should be performed first and the results finalized, then the reviewer gets to see and play with the equipment they just reviewed for audio/video. Then they can review the aesthetics of the equipment. It's not rocket science. I can see, however, where the A/V information could be tainted if the reviewer has no scruples and goes back to change information they've already written.
My Collection
Export to Wiki
#19
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
There are plenty of sources for end user reviews available online.

That is why I joined the HTF. Honest reviews by average (and not so average) users. People who are not afraid to express their opinions and share in lively debates. There are some products that are generally agreed are good (SVS) and others that are generally agreed are not so good (Bose). And others that are controversial that I need to do a lot of research on and make up my own mind (HD vs Bluray). I usually tend to stay away even from the controversial products if there is one that is generally agreed is good. I would take the opinion of HTF users over a review printed in a magazine any day.
Cave Country Weather
Export to Wiki
#20
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

It seems that Computer magazines have for years used seemingly blind tests for ranking printers, digital cameras, etc. They run hardware through scripted tests to get objective results (e.g. time to warm-up, time to print a page, etc.) and do blind group surveys to evaluate print or image quality from the various items. Consumer Reviews seems to do the right thing for TVs, washing machines, etc. with objective and blind testing.

But still, much of the value of a review is not, cannot be, purely objective nor "blind". I need someone "skilled in the art" to sit with some computer application and put it through its paces, doing what an actual user would do, and tell me if it feels right, if it supports or hinders the work, etc. Likewise for driving a car, using a food processor, handling a vacuum cleaner, taking photos with a complex digital camera, and even setting up and using a modern receiver or TV. I want to know about the subjective performance.

So, let's have blind testing when appopriate. Why then is the AV industry comparitively lacking? Perhaps the audio-video enthusiasts (the magazine buyers) don't actually want that? Maybe the people who read the reviews aren't actually interested in true performance, and prefer the personal perspectives on performance?
Export to Wiki
#21
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Who has more money for advertising, company 'M', which has a 300% markup on a "High-End" widget, or company 'B', which has a 3% markup on a "Low-End" widget?

Talk amongst yourselves.
Export to Wiki
#22
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

> others that are generally agreed are not so good (Bose)

Actually, everyone I've known who had their headphones or wave radio really liked them.
Export to Wiki
#23
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

The kind of blind testing that you mention would definitely be easier to do with speakers than with electronics. There was a thread in avsforum with craigsub and a bunch of other guys doing blind listening tests of a range of speakers with all lights off in the room as they listened and had to write their comments down before finding out the identity of the speaker they were listening to. What was interesting was that they knew most of the speakers that were included in the test and so they made guesses in their reviews of what speaker it was that they were listening to, and sometimes they were quite surprised with the results.

The thing that was refreshing about that review process was that the comments were purely based on what they were hearing. They could not tell how expensive the speaker was, how well known a company it was from, how good that company's other speakers were... There was more of a purity in the reviews as a result.

This type of thing might be a bit harder to do with electronics since you have to operate them to test them, but I can see where you're coming from.
Export to Wiki
#24
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
> others that are generally agreed are not so good (Bose)

Actually, everyone I've known who had their headphones or wave radio really liked them.
I knew I would get in trouble mentioning the "B" word.
I was referring to reviews on this forum only. There are enough mostly bad reviews that I will not consider buying Bose. Why spend time reviewing controversial equipment when there is equipment that is not surrounded in controversy?
Cave Country Weather
Export to Wiki
#25
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Andrew, your posts get the most bizarre responses. ... free speech? ... because they're paid? Weird.
I know! Some truly strange, passive-aggressive answers to a very good topic. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who has made some enemies over the years .

--
H
Export to Wiki
#26
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Actually, everyone I've known who had their headphones or wave radio really liked them.
Bose is marketed at people who have essentially zero technical knowledge of audio, and have neither the time or the desire to learn such aspects. The Bose "cubes" are popular because they are inconspicuous, and won't interfere with more "important" matters such as decor.
Export to Wiki
#27
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew markworthy

There is of course a way round it, called blind testing. In the case of a DVD player, the reviewer would have an assistant who would hide the player and all the reviewer would see would be the picture produced on the screen. This would then be compared against several other players (again, their identities hidden) and each would be graded separately. Only at the end of this blind appraisal would the reviewer find out their grading of the DVD player under assessment. Thus, any subjective opinions would be based purely on the product and not on the bias of expectation, etc.
It was this sort of foolishness that led Calfornians to believe their wine even remotely close to the perfection of French wines in 1976...
1976 Blind Taste Test - Paris Tasting

Martin Luther observed that the human race is like a drunkard who falls off his horse on the left and makes up for it by falling off the next time on the right.

Export to Wiki
#28
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

Quote:
It was this sort of foolishness that led Calfornians to believe their wine even remotely close to the perfection of French wines in 1976...
I think it actually rather proves my point. On the subject of wine experts, I treasure the remark made to a friend of mine at a wine tasting evening. My friend confessed that he greatly preferred the cheap supermarket plonk to a couple of the expensive bottles of Chateau Pretentious that were meant to the star attraction. One of the wine buffs there sniffed, and then said the immortal words 'well of course it does have a more obvious attraction when you taste it'. Sorry? Did I miss something here? If something tastes obviously attractive, that means it's inferior to something that tastes nasty? Yes, I do understand about after-tastes, the multiple tastes and smells that a good wine can produce, but if the damn stuff doesn't taste nice, all the rest is academic, surely? It's reminiscent of a time I was auditioning some new speakers. I was trying out the critics' mid-price favourite at the time and they sounded awful - absolutely no bass and the treble was thin and tinny. I said this to the store assistant who said 'yes, but the midrange is really incredible'. Fine - if my music collection ever consists solely of recordings of a violin playing in its middle register, they'll be the speakers at the top of my list.

Incidentally, if you have a wine snob to dinner and you want to drive them nuts, try serving a fairly robust white wine to which you've added anough red food coloring to make it appear the color of claret (assuming said wine snob isn't allergic to food coloring!) and serve it in a decanter or carafe. You can then have great pleasure in asking them to identify the wine...
Export to Wiki
#29
Rating: 0

Re: Why nearly all reviews are rubbish

That's ok...did you realize that almost all French vineyards are planted with vines grafted to American rootstocks?

Feline videophiles Susie and Dukie.

Export to Wiki