My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Universal's been guilty of that too, haven't they? Didn't they remove a section of the Spielberg film, 1941, that had "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" hum/sung by Belushi, on the VHS tape version?

Harry

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

So apparently, per the article about the Fugitive, CBS/Paramount would rather remove all music than hire someone with knowledge to identify music and obtain the necessary releases. The only music that needed to be remove was from the disputed Capitol Library. With the Capital Library its not that they are asking for too much money, the situation is that there is a dispute as to who owns the music. It also said in the article CBS had to find the separate audio elements to remove the music. It seems alot of trouble to go through to make fans so unhappy.

Thank goodness CBS/Paramount doesn't own Bewitched. They would probably remove and replace the nose twitch music.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Well, after a few days to let things settle down, I feel like I can revisit the topic and make a few more points. Firstly, is there any doubt whatsoever that CBS/P pushed back the original release date specifically to change the music? None whatsoever in my mind. Secondly, is there any doubt at this point that CBS/P couldn't care less about the consumer fan base and their wishes? That they would go forward with more music subs after all the flack they took from THE FUGITIVE still blows me away! Thirdly, is there any doubt that we will see this problem pop up yet again with some future release? Unfortunately, none whatsoever in my mind.

Thanks CBS/Paramount. You've gone from top of the hill to bottom of the dumpster bin in my eyes (and I'd hazard a guess I'm not the only one). Other studios take note of how NOT to treat your vintage material.

Gary "the indies are taking over the top spot in my book" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

BTW, I was reminded again today that I need to clarify some points. And again, I'm only speaking for myself.

Firstly, I agree with those people that have said those of us here at HTF (and similar online sites) make up a very small percentage of those that will buy CBS/P dvds like "My Three Sons" or "The Fugitive". Our outrage and disgust is not necessarily indicative of the whole consumer base. I'm sure that most folks that buy these dvds either don't remember the shows well enough to pick up on the music subs or have never seen the show and don't realize there have been changes. That's just the way it is. And because of that, I doubt sales are hurting that much. Now, I do think CBS/P felt some pressure after the release of THE FUGE, but it was undoubtedly because of the press from places like Variety and TVShowsonDVD.com. That helped our cause, but we still have to understand that to a huge company like CBS/P it's really not going to matter all that much that some folks get mad at them. Again, that's just reality.

Secondly, I really don't see an answer for this problem because there's no way we are going to see a large enough, grass roots boycott to do any good. It stinks to say that, but it's the truth. There are just too many folks that will not notice or hear about any problems with these releases. Unless you get some huge news network to start heavily and repeatedly reporting on stuff like this (and why in the world would they?) it's not going to affect CBS/Paramount. So we might as well make our own individual choices about what we are and are not going to do when it comes to our purchases - keep buying all CBS/P dvds, buy only a few when we used to buy a bunch, or not buy anything - and just learn to live with it.

Thirdly, in spite of the cold reality of sales being the bottom line, I do think everyone has a right to believe CBS/P has dropped down in quality when it comes to vintage material. It's all in what you use to gauge success. If money is the barometer, then they are still very successful. But if quality (including music) is your barometer then you have every right to believe, as I do, that CBS/P is no longer king of the hill. Companies like Shout have moved up the list for me. Look what they've done with the upcoming "Father Knows Best" set. They are giving us uncut episodes, even though they probably could have taken the same route that CBS/P has. But they've actually shown they do listen to the fan bases, and do care about more than just the dollar. Sure, that's always going to be first and foremost for a company. And it should be. But they've also shown they are willing to work with their customers to provide a better product because they know we weren't as happy as we could have been with the previous release. That says a lot to me!

Gary "I'm going to Netflix the M3S set just to hear the score and see how bad it really is (and I'm sure it is really horrid)" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I rented My Three Sons disc 1 from Netflix and watched it last night. Somehow, I never watched the series when I was younger, so I was unfamiliar with the music score.

I thought the rescored music was hokey, but so was the original music on the 2 "untouched" episodes. The rescored music was appropriate for the era it is intended for.

I'm not saying I support changing the music score. I'm just saying that it didn't distract me from enjoying the show as a first-time viewer. In fact, I had a few big belly laughs during the episode, "The Little Ragpicker."

However, there is just something wrong with tampering with someone else's vision and artistry. My Three Sons may not be considered a work of art, but it is a classic series and should be perserved and restored --- not changed or altered.

I can sympathize with other fans of this series. If Paramount tampers with the upcoming Petticoat Junction set, I will be hopping mad, too! And the possibility of that happening is extremely high right now.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Watched the first two episodes--enjoyable, but not an all out laugh riot. If the second episode has rescored music, I couldn't tell and I know I'm not an audio expert about the music for this series. One question though...are some of these from the edited syndicated versions? "Some episodes may have been altered from their original network versions". The music issue is bad enough for hard core fans, but why use syndicated episodes? You can't tell me CBS was THAT lazy to give unedited episodes. But then again, CBS DVD is just getting worse and worse as a company. The library should have stayed in the old Paramount hands or leased out to a decent third party company.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

DAMN!

I've been swamped with other stuff lately, and am a few weeks behind on my dvd purchases. First up was going to be My Three Sons that I knew was recently released.

But then I read this thread. Obviously NO SALE. But Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I really battled about whether or not to post my thoughts on the set once I heard the music for myself or just let sleeping dogs lie. But I'm going to venture in and just share my thoughts once, and only once, about this issue.

Firstly, I did Netflix the discs and have heard the music subs. When you get a chance to watch the first episode unmolested, and then listen to the wholesale changes in the others, it is a very distinct and startling difference. Unless someone was really oblivious to background scores, you'd be able to discern the difference between the music on that first episode and the rest. One of the neat things about so much background music is that it usually employs different variations on the theme song. Such was the case in that first episode. You could pick up on that well known theme at different points in the background. Not so with the subbed music. So right there you do lose something.

Secondly, I do have to say that more than likely if someone wasn't at all familiar with the show they could probably (note I said "probably", not "definitely") watch the episodes without too much distraction. Heck, I'm sure young uns wouldn't even notice at all. And that's surely what fuels the thinking behind this type of stuff. CBS/P is counting on the fact that the majority of buyers will not be as into this stuff as we are. And unfortunately that's just the cold, hard truth. Note that I'm not justifying what they did. Just stating the way it is.

Thirdly, and this is just one man's opinion, I don't think the subbed music is very good. At points it was really tough for me, and I don't think it's only because I knew some of the original music and was just anticipating it. I think it's because the music just comes off as very juvenile. I kinda felt like I was in one of those Saturday kiddie matinées I used to frequent while in grade school. The music just doesn't have any sophistication, and this show wasn't a "Gilligan's Island" type of comedy. No offense to GI fans intended. Anyhow, I didn't think the music fit the mood. It wasn't as bad as the FUGITIVE, but that's only because with the FUGITIVE the music was even more crucial at setting the mood, IMHO. But it was still pretty poor when compared with the original.

Finally, I'm guessing that CBS/P has clammed up on this issue since we've not heard a peep from them since the release. And there's not much you can report on if the studio won't say anything. Now, I might be wrong and maybe we will get some info later today or in the next few days. I hope we do. But right now it's pretty quiet so I have to assume they aren't talking. And I'll postulate that the reason for that is probably (again note the word "probably", not "definitely") because we are looking at a very similar situation as the one we had with THE FUGITIVE. If this music sub was about an individual or an estate holding CBS/P hostage by asking for some exorbitant amount of money for the rights I would think the studio would say so. That way they are not seen as the "bad guys." But the silence is fairly deafening right now so I'm going to assume that's not the case. Kinda wish I was wrong on that one, and would welcome news to the contrary.

Gary "hopefully I don't get roasted for expressing my opinions" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Thanks Gary for your thoughts.......did you find the episodes used to be from edited syndicated prints?

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

No, I don't believe that's a problem here. In fact I believe that's one area where CBS/P pretty much always does an outstanding job - using uncut prints. I think once in a great while something might be cut for one reason or another on a selective few of their dvds, but I believe that they overwhelming give us uncut prints.

Gary "I'm not an expert on M3S though, so I can't give a 100% guarantee as to your question" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Syndicated prints are 22-23 minutes long these are 25-26 so its safe to say no syndicated prints. The reference to the editing on the back of the box refers to the music changing.
I'm not that familiar with the early seasons and so I am not familiar with the original music so while I could tell the difference after episode one I did not find the change too distracting but as a musician and a film fan I definately respect anyone boycotting these because they are familiar with the original music.
Its a shame because I'm really getting into these early episodes and I will buy them for as far as they put them out. Wish they would stop the music changes though.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

The reason I asked is that episode 2 on the set seems to suffer from "Father Knows Best Blackout Disease"--those familiar with FKB season 1 DVDs will know what I'm referring to.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

They did with the VHS version of "Sixteen Candles"--"Some Music has been changed for the Home Video Version". Don't have the DVD, so I don't know if the music changed has been restored or not.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

There have been two issues of SIXTEEN CANDLES on DVD. The first used the substituted music, the second had it restored to its original music, I believe.

Harry

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

As far as I know -- correct me if I'm wrong -- the early B&W episodes were never syndicated, right? The only time I know of them ever hitting the "rerun circuit" was when Nick At Nite ran them in the 1980s/1990s. They had a package containing completely different episodes from the regular syndicated package: all the B&W ones, then they jumped to the last seasons -- that is, all the episodes that had not been syndicated. And Nick At Nite (again, to the best of my knowledge) showed them uncut. Now later on, TV Land picked up My Three Sons and I understand they had the old syndicated package again. I think Family Channel had the show at one point too, but I don't know which episodes they had.

So am I correct in that the B&W episodes went unseen from the original network run until Nick At Nite? Can anyone confirm if they ever appeared anywhere else post-Nick?

In a roundabout way, I guess what I'm saying is that "syndicated cuts" should not be an issue for these episodes, because they never existed.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I think that we could consider "Hawaii Five-O" to be part of that select group of series released from CBS/Paramount that were originally CBS productions (either alone or IAW someone else). "Five-O" was, in its early seasons, "A Leonard Freeman Production in association with the CBS Television Network." This may be one reason why all four of "Five-O"'s current releases have gotten by virtually unscathed, barring one missing episode on #2 ("Bored, She Hung Herself") and I think one replaced song on #3 (in the "Trouble In Mind" outing), and also the #1 opening/closing music on the last #2 outing, "Kiss The Queen Goodbye." Other than those problems, I, for one, have been pretty well satisfied with the "Five-O" DVD releases, considering such things as the rich writing, the Hawaiian settings, the characters, and the opening and closing titles and music.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I bought the complete series through an alternate route and the early ones are off TVLand and they're running around 25 minutes. I'm happy with what I have--all of it on 35 discs for about a buck a disc.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Besides the style of the music changing, I'm wondering if the sound quality changes.

How do they make the new music sound as if it's really part of a 1960 soundtrack?

Does it sound clearer and "newer" than the rest of the soundtrack? Does it suddenly pull you out of 1960 and fling you into 2008?

I ask because, unless my library gets this title, I won't be watching these myself.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

In my opinion - they don't.



In my opinion - yes. Not terribly so, but yes.



For me - absolutely. And that was my biggest gripe with the score. It just didn't have a late 50's/early 60's feel to it. But again, those type of things are very subjective and I'm only one person.


Gary "the way you worded the questions got to the heart of the issue for me" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Gary, thank you for your thoughts on this release. Like you, I also went the Netflx route and watched disc 1 over the weekend. Personally, I think the new score is a total disaster. It is so jarring and distracting that it completely took me out of the mood of the program. Even my wife, who is normally oblivious to such things, commented on the odd sounds during Bub's encounter with the washing machine in "The Countdown" episode.

Today I removed the other discs from my queue and I have absolutely NO desire to see any more episodes of My Three Sons as they are presented on this set.

The sad thing is that I had forgotten how truly inventive and innovative this program is compared to other sitcoms of the day.

One final note... I have not seen these black & white episodes since their original network run so my recall is a bit hazy, but is the opening theme song cut short on these discs? In the original, after the two main leads are credited, should that have been followed by a sponsorship mention (Chevrolet) and that is what's been excised here?

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

TVLand aired the b/w episodes in the fall of 2000 for a few months. I don't think they got past the first season though. My recollection is that they were cut down to about 23 minutes, not as badly as the syndicated color eps. I will check my tapes. The complete eps which ran on Nick at Nite clocked at about 25:30.

But as Randy mentioned, the eps on the dvd run between 25 and 26 minutes, so evidently they had access to the original masters.

For me, the music replacement would make them unwatchable. The simple instrumentation characteristic of early sixties soundtracks is so strongly identified with M3S that to mess with it totally changes the mood of the show. There were several episodes in which music is a plot theme, eg. the eps about Robbie's band. Even if that is unaltered, the surrounding replacement cues would seem to clash with the authentic stuff.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I remember seeing them in syndication long before Nick at Nite was even thought of.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

It's a shame that CBS has gone and done it again. I would've thought after the Fugitive mess they would have rethought their entire process. Hmm. Guess not.

There are only 4 series that I'm currently collecting from them. Hawaii Five-O, Streets of San Francisco, The Mod Squad and The Odd Couple. I'm aware of the cuts to The Odd Couple but I'm going to go ahead and finish the series. I was collecting Love American Style, but I think that the 1st season is just about all that we are going to get. As for Mod Squad, Streets of San Francisco and Hawaii Five-O, I haven't noticed any large music replacements so I'm hoping that these remain intact for the rest of the run for those shows.

But, who knows? CBS just might get cheap on me and start to chop those shows up as well.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

It's a month of its release, and still no explanation why there was music replacement and why 2 of the episodes were presented with music intact. I guess people just don't care.

What I was wondering, are some of the music replacement cues heard on this dvd also heard in the Fugitive Season 2, Volume 1? Is CBS/Paramount really building a music replacement library? Are they going to use the same or similiar cues for all the shows they musically replace? I guess it would give them the most bang for their buck.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I wouldn't assume that, John. Although I can't speak for anyone, I will say that I'm personally very confident that some of our friends on the "inside" have tried to get answers for us. My best bet is a simple one: CBS/Paramount isn't answering. I'm sure people are asking, they just aren't getting responses. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will correct the record on that point. But until I hear otherwise, I'm going to believe the problem is with CBS/P clamming up.

If that is the case, then my next point is (and I've maintained this since day one) that this was another example of CBS/P refusing to go the extra mile for the fans by searching for and securing the rights to music they aren't sure about. Probably something that could have been accomplished if they had been willing, but music replacement was just easier for them so they went that route. I'm sticking to that theory (which I believe was verified beyond a shadow of a doubt with THE FUGITIVE debacle) until someone presents cold, hard facts to the contrary. Like I've said, if my theory is wrong then CBS/P are fools for taking all these hits to their reputation by not correcting the stories that are out there. If they are not to blame, then tell us! If this is because a person or estate has held you hostage by asking for too much money, CBS/P, then simply tell us that and allow us to be mad at the greedy goons that are behind this. But I'm betting that has nothing to do with this problem, so they (CBS/P) aren't talking.

Gary "just my two cents" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

Well, for what it's worth, I've heard that (predictably) the Capitol Music library was again the culprit. From an informed source, although not an "inside" one.

Of course, the more times CBS does this, the more it works in their favor, as it will only be the diehards who keep complaining about it. It's not going to rate a reaming in VARIETY each and every time a different TV show is gutted.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

So I guess it's safe to say, if it's CBS/Paramount, and the show has Capitol Music cues, expect wholesale music replacements?

What other classic shows that CBS/Paramount has the rights to have Capitol Music cues?

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I'm not sure. Did RAWHIDE or PERRY MASON make use of some of the Capitol cues?

Your comments seem like a reasonable assumption to me. A real shame if it works out that way, but very reasonable to assume. We probably should prepare for even more subs on subsequent releases. I'm not sure what shows this would apply to though.

Also, maybe your first post about no one caring is true. I thought we'd get at least an acknowledgment by now from someone seeing as how a good bit of time has passed by without a word. But maybe in the final analysis this show just doesn't merit any advocacy, in some people's minds, because it wasn't/isn't popular enough to demand that sort of time and energy. I hope that's not the case. Don't know. But the silence certainly is deafening.

Gary "still very much bummed out about the horrible music subs in this show" O.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I guess then where CBS/Paramount goofed in terms of the music replacements was to do it to a show like The Fugitive, which still has a sizeable amount of fans, not to mention respect from critics and other quarters. Had they just confined it to more obscure or niche shows like My Three Sons, they would have gotten probably less than ten percent the negative publicity or criticism they got for doing it to the Fugitive.

Re: My Three Sons: Season 1, Vol. 1

I can't speak for RAWHIDE, but I don't believe PERRY MASON is impacted by music replacement. CBS owned the show outright and perhaps the records for the music are much more clearly documented or perhaps CBS just used cues they owned outright.

For the 3 seasons of releases to date the only real edit appears to be 72 seconds missing in TCOT FANCY FIGURES in S2. This appears to be mere human error as the same episode was complete on the Columbia House version.