Defrag on a Mac

#1

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2/16/08 at 3:17pm

Ronald Epstein
Ronald Epstein
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Having problem doing any defrag on my Mac (bootups are very
slow on my Macbook Pro) and I *think* I have figured out why....

Every software I have tried (Drive Genius/TechTool) is not
allowing a defrag to be done from within the Macintosh HD.

In other words, I think I have to install these programs and run
them from a external drive and/or bootup CD so I am not doing
a defrag from within the same hard drive.

Can anyone confirm if this is true or have I just made up a
bunch of horse shit?

Thanks!

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com
To View My Massive DVD Collection Click Here
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#2

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2/16/08 at 5:27pm

JeremyErwin
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

That's pretty much it-- you can't defrag the disk without unmounting it, and you can't unmount it if it's currently hosting the active System. I generally boot from an external hard drive, but I've also used firewire target disk mode.

#3

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2/17/08 at 1:45am

Ronald Epstein
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Jeremy,

How can I boot from an external hard drive? SuperDuper has backed
up my entire system to an external so I can easily boot from it.

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com
To View My Massive DVD Collection Click Here
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#4

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2/17/08 at 6:40am

JeremyErwin
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein

Jeremy,

How can I boot from an external hard drive? SuperDuper has backed
up my entire system to an external so I can easily boot from it.

System Preferences/Startup Disk

#5

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2/17/08 at 9:31am

Michael_K_Sr
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Connect the hard disk, restart the machine and hold down the OPTION key to select which volume to boot from.

#6

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2/17/08 at 9:43am

JohnRice
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Isn't Tech Tool on a bootable disc? I have always found it best to boot from that disc to do the defrag. Just hold down the "C" key during startup. Of course, I haven't had Tech Tool in years, so it may not be bootable anymore. Otherwise, either of the two previous suggestions will work.

They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

#7

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2/17/08 at 6:17pm

Carlo Medina
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

One interesting thing: I recently upgraded my MBP internal HD, and used Carbon Copy Cloner to do it. I first put in my new HD in an external drive, CCC'd to it, and then installed it.

One thing I noticed: when CCC copied everything, it did so in a logical order (system files first, program files, then music/movie files), and it defragged in the process (by nature of the HFS+ file system). I confirmed this by running the demo version of iDefrag which at least lets you analyze the fragmentation on your HD. My old HD was horribly fragmented (I do a ton of small to medium file add/deletes) and the same files on my new HD were not fragmented.

Now what I have to figure out is, next time I need a defrag, can I CCC to an external drive, boot from the external drive, and CCC back to the internal drive?

Anyone had luck with this?

#8

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2/17/08 at 6:36pm

JohnRice
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

I had terrible problems booting from any CCC backup (and just general problems), but have never had a single problem booting from a firewire backup done with SuperDuper. Never tried it with a USB drive. Now, that is my standard practice. I backup to a firewire drive, which is left off the rest of the time for added protection. When I get a new drive or just reconfigure things, I boot from the firewire drive and back it up to an internal.

They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

#9

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2/18/08 at 6:05am

DaveF
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Is defragging necessary or even useful on a Mac?

On Windows, it's almost spiritual ritual for exorcising computer demons -- if anything weird is going on, do a defrag. So is defragging a Mac good practice? Or is this Windows users bringing bad habits to the Mac world?

#10

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2/18/08 at 6:49am

JeremyErwin
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

Is defragging necessary or even useful on a Mac?

Not Really, no. Diskwarrior is more useful for fixing the broken file systems that Disk First Aid can't handle.

#11

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2/18/08 at 10:57am

Carlo Medina
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Most people say no. I can, from firsthand experience, tell you that there are certain circumstances when it's useful. Here was my experience:

1. HD was over 90% full
2. Perform a lot of write, modify and/or deletion of small to medium files (i.e. AAC files 8-15MB, video files 60-600MB)
3. Have a lot of programs which constantly upgrade (4 major browsers, Adobe CS3 premium, Office 2004, iWork 06 then 08, iLife 06 then 08, ProTools 7.0-7.3.1). I upgrade my programs to the latest versions all the time.

Towards the end my HD was just slow. Spinning beach ball all the time, the startup time which had been under 30 seconds now was well over a minute.

I loaded the trial version of iDefrag which showed massive fragmentation all over the HD.

I CCC'd to a larger HD, which now is about 60% full as opposed to 93% full. I watched the CCC process and how it copied the files, I can't swear 100% it went this way as I wasn't taking notes, but it seemed to copy system files first, then the program files, then the media/personal files.

When I installed and booted up on the new HD, it was an improvement as if I had just turned on the Mac for the first time. Booted in 25 seconds, no spinning beach balls, increased load performance all across the board (more than what could be accounted for even given the fact that my new HD was 7200rpm and my old one was 5400).

Ran iDefrag, and there was almost no fragmentation. So I can say that there is a condition where defragging will help, but it is pretty extreme compared to when it's needed in Windows.

#12

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2/18/08 at 11:05am

DaveF
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Gotcha.

So in two years when my MBP is out of warranty, I can crack it open, add another 2GB of RAM, upgrade to a 500 GB laptop drive, and defrag too. That'll be a good spring cleaning and system refresher.

#13

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2/18/08 at 11:26am

ErichH
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyErwin

Not Really, no. Diskwarrior is more useful for fixing the broken file systems that Disk First Aid can't handle.

Agree - the old days of defrag (any one remember the Norton nightmare?) are gone for the most part.
Best to use DWarrior on a regular basis, and perhaps a bi yearly or once a year low level format & build from scratch with a fresh backup on hand (SuperDuper is nice)

#14

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2/18/08 at 11:26am

Carlo Medina
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Why wait? Mine's a year and a half old and I have Applecare

Seriously - the RAM is user replaceable and says so in the warranty, go ahead and add more RAM.

The HD was a more serious endeavor and I'd only recommend it if you're comfortable taking things apart. If anything ever does go wrong I feel confident I can replace the original HDD and they won't be able to tell.

The other way to keep your Mac clean is to store all audio/video/personal files externally, or not let it get to over 75-80% disk capacity filled (which is around where I started seeing the slowdown).

#15

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2/18/08 at 7:22pm

DaveF
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

I don't need the RAM -- 2GB is plenty for now. But I imagine in a couple of years, OS 10.6 Liger will need more. And I'm only using 80GB of my 160 GB internal drive, so I don't need a new HD for a while.

#16

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2/19/08 at 2:07am

Yee-Ming
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

But I imagine in a couple of years, OS 10.6 Liger will need more.

I was rather wondering, what big cat's name are they going to use next? I had thought "Lion", but I seem to recall someone telling me that it was used for an internal beta build or something. Otherwise, what's left? Lynx? Cougar? Puma (which is another name for a jaguar anyway)? Cheetah?

#17

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2/19/08 at 5:14am

Michael_K_Sr
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

I was rather wondering, what big cat's name are they going to use next? I had thought "Lion", but I seem to recall someone telling me that it was used for an internal beta build or something. Otherwise, what's left? Lynx? Cougar? Puma (which is another name for a jaguar anyway)? Cheetah?

Actually Cheetah and Puma were the internal code names for 10.0 and 10.1 respectively. Apple has trademarked Cougar for future use.

#18

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2/19/08 at 6:33am

JeremyErwin
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Puma, Mountain Lion, Panther and Cougar all refer to the same cat, Puma concolor. The Jaguar, Pathera onca is a completely different species.

#19

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2/19/08 at 11:19am

ErichH
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Perhaps a few prehistoric cat names

Reptiles? How Knows

#20

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2/19/08 at 3:36pm

Ronald Epstein
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

My only reason for defragging is because on my Macbook Pro
bootup time is painfully slow. Nowhere near as fast as it used to be.

I think that a defrag may fix that.

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com
To View My Massive DVD Collection Click Here
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#21

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2/19/08 at 4:42pm

DaveF
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Let us know if it helps! As I said, defragging is common Windows cures-what-ails-ya. But I don't do nearly as much of that on my Mac, so I don't know what's useful and what's not.

#22

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2/23/08 at 8:04pm

TonyD
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

i wasnt aware that you could defrag a mac.

when we bought our macbook we were told it doesnt defrag, that's why when you
search using the spotlight it takes you immediatly to
anything that includes that word.
all the files are already were they should be.

#23

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2/27/08 at 1:34pm

Yumbo
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

I've had another Seagate drive die on me. That's 3 within 3 years.
Disk First Aid must be pissed off with me by now.

Is Western Digital any good?

Thinking of getting a new version of Diskwarrior, and Parallels (just to run my weekly DVD ordering software).

Thoughts?

Yumbiosis - all things Yumbo

#24

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2/27/08 at 1:36pm

Ronald Epstein
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Absolutely!

I use the MYBOOK editions with USB/Firewire. Been working great!

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com
To View My Massive DVD Collection Click Here
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#25

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2/27/08 at 1:44pm

Yumbo
Chris Caine
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

MYBOOK?

Yumbiosis - all things Yumbo

#26

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2/27/08 at 1:52pm

Ronald Epstein
Ronald Epstein
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Yeah.

I prefer MacMall but I had problems connecting.

I did a quick search on Macconnection and got this

Of course, that may be overkill, but it gives you an idea of
what the MY BOOK looks like.

Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com
To View My Massive DVD Collection Click Here
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#27

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2/27/08 at 2:05pm

Yumbo
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

I already have an OWC (great in general) external dual drive case.

The 2 Seagate (250GB, 200GB) internals from my G5 tower were displaced by a 500GB Maxtor which is ok so far.

Time Machine was fine for 2 months, then it kept failing. Finally the 200GB (older) drive conked out (they were spanned).

Trying to decide whether to get a 500GB WD from OWC for $110 or wait and save for a Time Capsule.

Currently backing up to the 250GB - failed once. Did a 7 pass erase. Been ok for 3 days now.

Didn't realise Diskwarrior 3 was not 10.5 compliant.

So would DW 4 do any good for me at $100?

Yumbiosis - all things Yumbo

#28

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2/27/08 at 6:32pm

Joe Casey
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Regarding the defrag process, OSX defrags all files over 4MB in the background automatically. As a general rule of thumb, any disc drive that is about 75% full should be defrag'd beyond what is included in OSX due to read/write operations. Both iDefrag and Disc Warrior work well for this.

Q

#29

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2/27/08 at 8:07pm

DavidJ
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yumbo

I already have an OWC (great in general) external dual drive case.

The 2 Seagate (250GB, 200GB) internals from my G5 tower were displaced by a 500GB Maxtor which is ok so far.

Time Machine was fine for 2 months, then it kept failing. Finally the 200GB (older) drive conked out (they were spanned).

Trying to decide whether to get a 500GB WD from OWC for $110 or wait and save for a Time Capsule.

Currently backing up to the 250GB - failed once. Did a 7 pass erase. Been ok for 3 days now.

Didn't realise Diskwarrior 3 was not 10.5 compliant.

So would DW 4 do any good for me at $100?

I have become a firm believer in having a current version of Disk Warrior around at all times. I am often frustrated by its too simple interface, but it can work wonders. When my Leopard install crashed due to a bad Superdrive, it was the only program that let me save anything. WD drives aren't bad. We don't edit from them, but we use them to back up individual projects or client work.

#30

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3/5/08 at 11:30pm

Adam Lenhardt
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Re: Defrag on a Mac

Hard drives are a crap shoot no matter what. One person will tell you that Seagate is the only brand to go with, another will tell you that every Seagate drive he's had has failed. The same is true with Western Digital. Seagate drives are more popular among geeks because they have a longer warranty period.
That said, the 250 GB WD harddrive I have in an external enclosure has worked great for well over a year now.
I upgraded the internal drive in my laptop to a Hitachi at Christmas and so far that's working great. That said, the Hitachi I upgraded from was starting to corrupt data towards the end.

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