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Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

#1
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2/11/08 at 8:18am
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This past weekend was the first time I revisited any of My Next Generation collection since getting my Sony Bravia 1080p set last December. I remember the encodingof these were always spotty, but not untill I got this larger set did I realize just how Poor these things look. They are Ultra Soft and there's compression/Interlacing issues thru ought. Now I realize these were mastered on Video Tape and my god does it show. In Fact I'm not sure what could be done to clean these up. I was considering Ripping the entire series to my Apple TV, but since I can barely stand to watch them non compressed. Guess I rip them to a Lower rez to watch on my Smaller Ipod Touch Screen where the smaller Screen at least covers up some problems. And DS9 looks about the same...yuck.
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#2
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2/11/08 at 10:10am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

The early X-Files sets have similar issues. The combing issues are most annoying to me and ultimately my Oppo is the only player that is able to handle them. Neither my HD DVD or BD players could.

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#3
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2/11/08 at 10:10am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Scarpa
This past weekend was the first time I revisited any of My Next Generation collection since getting my Sony Bravia 1080p set last December. I remember the encodingof these were always spotty, but not untill I got this larger set did I realize just how Poor these things look. They are Ultra Soft and there's compression/Interlacing issues thru ought. Now I realize these were mastered on Video Tape and my god does it show. In Fact I'm not sure what could be done to clean these up. I was considering Ripping the entire series to my Apple TV, but since I can barely stand to watch them non compressed. Guess I rip them to a Lower rez to watch on my Smaller Ipod Touch Screen where the smaller Screen at least covers up some problems. And DS9 looks about the same...yuck.

The reason is the shows were edited on 1" tape. Editing on video was just coming into its own in the '80s and the results of editing on 1" look inferior to editing everything on film (as was done on the original series).

Another part of the problem is (correct me if I'm wrong), I think, all of the SFX shots were actually shot on 1" tape (which was another reason to edit on tape), so even though film elements might still exist for the live action, the SFX will still look grubby unless they're completely re-done from scratch. Considering Paramount are already doing this on the HD version of the original series, it's not something that can't be done. Question is, will they?
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#4
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2/11/08 at 11:05am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

How do these shows look on a 32" HDTV? I'm planning on buying a 32" Westinghouse HDTV, 720p and I'm wondering how video quality is going to look.
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#5
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2/11/08 at 11:20am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

If you watch these shows on an LCD, I suggest you either sit far back from the screen, or use whatever noise reduction options your TV has, because the show ( I don't have TNG but I have every season of DS9) will look worse than anything.

Viewing on a Plasma is better, but not by much.

From season 4 onward, DS9 looks a bit better, and continues to improve so by the season 7, the DVDs actually look quite nice. Seasons 1 to 3 however, especially season 1...yuck. Very yuck. The worst looking of them all is the pilot "Emissary". Look at the establishing shot of the bridge where Jake Sisko is fishing. It's disgustingly bad:


As mentioned in the Deep Space Nine thread in the TV forum, watching these older non-anamorphic shows on a CRT is really the best way to enjoy them, because on that type of screen these DVDs never look bad.
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#6
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2/11/08 at 11:29am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMcKinney
The reason is the shows were edited on 1" tape. Editing on video was just coming into its own in the '80s and the results of editing on 1" look inferior to editing everything on film (as was done on the original series).

Another part of the problem is (correct me if I'm wrong), I think, all of the SFX shots were actually shot on 1" tape (which was another reason to edit on tape), so even though film elements might still exist for the live action, the SFX will still look grubby unless they're completely re-done from scratch. Considering Paramount are already doing this on the HD version of the original series, it's not something that can't be done. Question is, will they?


I believe that little "visual enhancements" like phaser blasts, etc. were done on tape though I'm not sure, but everything else was film, including Enterprise shots and other model photography. They even reused a couple of the stock Enterprise shots done way back in 1987 for "Star Trek Generations."

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#7
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2/11/08 at 11:32am
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
If you watch these shows on an LCD, I suggest you either sit far back from the screen, or use whatever noise reduction options your TV has, because the show ( I don't have TNG but I have every season of DS9) will look worse than anything.

From season 4 onward, DS9 looks a bit better, and continues to improve so by the season 7, the DVDs actually look quite nice. Seasons 1 to 3 however, especially season 1...yuck. Very yuck. The worst looking of them all is the pilot "Emissary". Look at the establishing shot of the bridge where Jake Sisko is fishing. It's disgustingly bad.

As mentioned in the Deep Space Nine thread in the TV forum, watching these older non-anamorphic shows on a CRT is really the best way to enjoy them, because on that type of screen these DVDs never look bad.

You'll be ok on a 32" TV, anything larger is when you'll notice it. I went from a 32" LCD to a 46" LCD.
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#8
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2/11/08 at 12:26pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

The effects shots seem to have been sped up or slowed down on tape because it messes up the 3:2 pulldown of telecined film material. That's probably why it looks extra bad on a progressive display.
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#9
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2/11/08 at 12:29pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Gibbs
I believe that little "visual enhancements" like phaser blasts, etc. were done on tape though I'm not sure, but everything else was film, including Enterprise shots and other model photography. They even reused a couple of the stock Enterprise shots done way back in 1987 for "Star Trek Generations."
That's right. My understanding was that the show was shot on film and transfered to video. There's been talk as to the condition or even the availability of the original film prints for a remastered version. TOS was always film which is why remastered transfers were a no issue. Truthfully, TNG will be a more expensive process than TOS and you have to wonder if CBS will foot the expense. As far as the quality of the episodes, what I do is when I watch them on my HD DVD player I switch the source from film to video. Talk about a difference! The video is still soft at times, but, the resolution in some scenes is fantastic this way. I leave my resolution setting at 1080p/24 as well. You may also find if you change your resolution settings the picture may improve. Try starting at 480i and work your way up till the picture becomes to unsatisfactory. Then, drop down to the last setting. It may not be 1080i, but, it should look a little better.

" I think it's time we go to plan B". "What's plan B?" "That's the one where we don't do something stupid".

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#10
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2/11/08 at 2:15pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Talmadge
How do these shows look on a 32" HDTV? I'm planning on buying a 32" Westinghouse HDTV, 720p and I'm wondering how video quality is going to look.

I watch my Next Gen DVD's on a 32" 720p Olevia HDTV and they look fine, particuarly the later seasons. However, I'm very concerned when I upgrade to a 1080p 50" set they will look like crap.
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#11
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2/11/08 at 2:26pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Scarpa
This past weekend was the first time I revisited any of My Next Generation collection since getting my Sony Bravia 1080p set last December. I remember the encodingof these were always spotty, but not untill I got this larger set did I realize just how Poor these things look. They are Ultra Soft and there's compression/Interlacing issues thru ought. Now I realize these were mastered on Video Tape and my god does it show. In Fact I'm not sure what could be done to clean these up. I was considering Ripping the entire series to my Apple TV, but since I can barely stand to watch them non compressed. Guess I rip them to a Lower rez to watch on my Smaller Ipod Touch Screen where the smaller Screen at least covers up some problems. And DS9 looks about the same...yuck.

Hmmmmm. That's weird, because I also own a Sony Bravia 1080p 46-inch LCD TV, and I thought ``Star Trek: TNG'' looked great, as does Voyager. I'm not noticing any interlacing or compression issues, either. Mind you, my DVD player is my Sony PS3. But, I didn't notice any of the issues you mention on the seventh season set, which I finished after I bought the new TV after watching most of it on my ancient 1999 Magnavox 32-inch TV.

Real name: Dan Hart, Big Time TV Fan.

I also have not enough time to watch all of these DVDS:

http://www.invelos.com/dvdcollection.aspx/fire26bee

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#12
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2/11/08 at 2:32pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

The image looks quite different depending on the screen.
I have:

13" and 20" cheap CRT
-on both, the DS9 DVDs look fantastic.

17" LCD computer monitor
-a grey area, because the image can be adjusted depending on the media player you use (codecs and filters, etc)

26" LCD HDTV (Toshiba Regza)
-with the combing, and every flaw in the image revealed even moreso, I try not to watch on this at all.

42" Plasma HDTV (LG)
-bit better than the LCD, but not much. The image is much softer when I set the DVD player to 'auto' for the interlacing, but it's a minor improvement.
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#13
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2/11/08 at 2:46pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

We own a 57" Toshiba television, and all of the TNG DVDs (seasons 1-7) look fine. It could be that my expectations are not as great as some, however. I'm also watching these on a brand new code-free DVD player. I don't know if that would make any difference.
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#14
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2/11/08 at 2:51pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

The player can make a world of difference for shows like this as well if it upscales.

Everyone list their player (if its upscaling or not), whether they think the image is good or bad (with details about artifacts and interlacing if you could), and who their favorite Starship Captain is (if you're gonna say Janeway or Archer just don't post).

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#15
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2/11/08 at 2:55pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Everyone list their player (if its upscaling or not), whether they think the image is good or bad (with details about artifacts and interlacing if you could), and who their favorite Starship Captain is (if you're gonna say Janeway or Archer just don't post).
How 'bout picking a particular scene we can all reference? It would have to be a TNG scene for me since I don't own any DS9.

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#16
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2/11/08 at 3:04pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
How 'bout picking a particular scene we can all reference? It would have to be a TNG scene for me since I don't own any DS9.
I'll start by choosing one scene, but if others want to reference a different scene, that's fine.

How about the scene in Sarek, during the playing of the Brahms Sextet, when the camera pans in front of Sarek, and then moves slowly toward him before it rests on him as he begins to shed a tear? If that scene is too 'dark,' maybe one of the scenes from The Arsenal of Freedom (much lighter?) would work.

I picked the one from Sarek because it's one of my favorite episodes in all of TNG. My favorite Captains are Janeway and Archer. Just kidding. Captain Kirk will always be my favorite, just as TOS will always be my favorite series. But I love them all.
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#17
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2/11/08 at 3:14pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

I posted that screencap from the DS9 pilot above.

Benjamin Sisko is my favorite Captain, as DS9 is my favorite Trek. I don't have any other Trek shows on DVD.

I don't have any high-end DVD players, but just about all my DVDs look marvelous on my Plasma.

Sony DVP-NS63P connected to my 26"Toshiba LCD

Panasonic DVD-S43 connected to my 42" LG Plasma.

Both through component (obviously) and neither player is upscaling.
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#18
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2/11/08 at 3:21pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Nicholas Martin:
Quote:
I posted that screencap from the DS9 pilot above.
Judging from the pic you posted, that is very similar to what I see on our large-screen t.v. To my eyes, what you've posted looks exceptional. But I will look at that scene again soon for comparative purposes.
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#19
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2/11/08 at 3:24pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

It's the worst looking scene of all the DS9 sets, but looks good on a regular CRT television.
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#20
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2/11/08 at 3:30pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
How about the scene in Sarek, during the playing of the Brahms Sextet, when the camera pans in front of Sarek, and then moves slowly toward him before it rests on him as he begins to shed a tear?

Is this from Season 4?

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#21
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2/11/08 at 3:41pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
As mentioned in the Deep Space Nine thread in the TV forum, watching these older non-anamorphic shows on a CRT is really the best way to enjoy them, because on that type of screen these DVDs never look bad.


ABSOLUTELY!!! When I upgraded to a 32" HD set, I kept my Sony 27" CRT, and I'm so glad I did. On my Hd set, no matter how much I tweak the settings, any of the Star Trek(and any classic televison for that matter) dvd's look absolutely horrible! It's kind of sad I have to keep two tv sets depending on what I want to watch, but it's absolutely essential. My Star Trek TNG dvd's look fantastic on my CRT set.

                          

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#22
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2/11/08 at 3:46pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

DS9 "Once More Unto the Breach" has a very impressive attack on a cardassian/dominion outpost. In daylight non the less. I have an HD DVD A20 player hooked with HDMI to my Samsung 42" plasma tv. When I watch TNG and DS9 I set the player to "video" for the source. I also have my set calibrated using HD DVE. That's it.

" I think it's time we go to plan B". "What's plan B?" "That's the one where we don't do something stupid".

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#23
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2/11/08 at 4:02pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
As mentioned in the Deep Space Nine thread in the TV forum, watching these older non-anamorphic shows on a CRT is really the best way to enjoy them, because on that type of screen these DVDs never look bad.

Not really true. I have a Sony 30" 16x9 CRT, and the DS9 discs look mostly okay from a distance, but look just as bad up close as they do on any other technology. Now, it you're talking a 4x3 CRT, can't argue.

I have a Denon player, and I notice quite a bit of interlacing problems. Moreso than I did when I watched the discs on my old Sony 20" 4x3. I don't remember which player I played them on, but I think it was a Pioneer from the dawn of the format.

Favorite captain is Sisko and then Kirk, but I don't think it's fair to leave out someone who likes any of the others. I know the statement was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but my friend's wife would definitely say Janeway, and I don't have a problem with that. I think my least favorite has become Picard. He's a little too touchy-feely for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
ABSOLUTELY!!! When I upgraded to a 32" HD set, I kept my Sony 27" CRT, and I'm so glad I did. On my Hd set, no matter how much I tweak the settings, any of the Star Trek(and any classic televison for that matter) dvd's look absolutely horrible! It's kind of sad I have to keep two tv sets depending on what I want to watch, but it's absolutely essential. My Star Trek TNG dvd's look fantastic on my CRT set.

I bet you find that to be the case with all 4x3 material, if you have cable. I watch something like Matlock and it looks dull and lifeless. I go in the other room and watch it on the 4x3, and it looks just fine. It really bothers me, especially since the screen is really too big for my viewing room anyway. It does look better the farther I get from it.
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#24
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2/11/08 at 4:10pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Zack Gibbs:
Quote:
Is this from Season 4?
Sarek is from Season Three.

Greg_H_S:
Quote:
Favorite captain is Sisko and then Kirk, but I don't think it's fair to leave out someone who likes any of the others. I know the statement was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but my friend's wife would definitely say Janeway, and I don't have a problem with that. I think my least favorite has become Picard. He's a little too touchy-feely for me.
It's probably not the appropriate thread, but I do agree with this (esp. the part about Picard). I loved it, though, on those rare occasions when he really stood his ground--when he instilled fear in those with/to whom he spoke. That's the Picard I love.
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#25
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2/11/08 at 4:11pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_S_H
Not really true. I have a Sony 30" 16x9 CRT, and the DS9 discs look mostly okay from a distance, but look just as bad up close as they do on any other technology. Now, it you're talking a 4x3 CRT, can't argue.

I bet you find that to be the case with all 4x3 material, if you have cable. I watch something like Matlock and it looks dull and lifeless. I go in the other room and watch it on the 4x3, and it looks just fine. It really bothers me, especially since the screen is really too big for my viewing room anyway. It does look better the farther I get from it.


I've seen a 16:9 CRT in action only once, and it was HD, so I gladly take your word on that.

In a strange sort of way, non-anamorphic 4:3 shows were in a sense not meant to be viewed on high resolution LCDs and Plasmas, so the reason they look so good on regular CRTs is because that's what they were meant to be viewed on, and that's what people who made the shows viewed them on while putting them together. I don't know if that's too extreme an assumption, but that's all I got.
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#26
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2/11/08 at 4:11pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
I bet you find that to be the case with all 4x3 material, if you have cable. I watch something like Matlock and it looks dull and lifeless. I go in the other room and watch it on the 4x3, and it looks just fine. It really bothers me, especially since the screen is really too big for my viewing room anyway. It does look better the farther I get from it.
I have found that the farther away I sit from the 57" television, the better it looks.
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#27
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2/11/08 at 4:18pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
ABSOLUTELY!!! When I upgraded to a 32" HD set, I kept my Sony 27" CRT, and I'm so glad I did. On my Hd set, no matter how much I tweak the settings, any of the Star Trek(and any classic televison for that matter) dvd's look absolutely horrible! It's kind of sad I have to keep two tv sets depending on what I want to watch, but it's absolutely essential. My Star Trek TNG dvd's look fantastic on my CRT set.

The only 4:3 show I have that looks good on my Plasma is season 1 of ANGEL, and while it's nowhere near its subsequent anamorphic seasons in terms of video quality, it's surprisingly sharp and decent, except for the pilot episode.

I tried Alien Nation on it - one episode, and had to stop because it looked so bad!
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#28
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2/11/08 at 4:21pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Martin
I've seen a 16:9 CRT in action only once, and it was HD, so I gladly take your word on that.

In a strange sort of way, non-anamorphic 4:3 shows were in a sense not meant to be viewed on high resolution LCDs and Plasmas, so the reason they look so good on regular CRTs is because that's what they were meant to be viewed on, and that's what people who made the shows viewed them on while putting them together. I don't know if that's too extreme an assumption, but that's all I got.


It's not extreme at all, it's the truth. All of my standard dvd's(except some newer films) are viewed on my CRT! My HD set only shines when watching HD movies, and video games! I am using component cables, so maybe that's the problem, but even If I get an HDMI cable, I can't imagine the picture looking that much better.

                          

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#29
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2/11/08 at 8:31pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

How does everyone feel about the audio side of things?

I find there's not much difference between the original stereo track and the 5.1, because the 5.1 is derived from that original stereo anyway.

I know how they did it by listening closely to each channel. They took the dialogue track and made a center channel out of it, then took the remaining stereo and ran a "vocal cut" pass on it, eliminating anything dead center of the sound mix. (Audio editing software such as Adobe Audition has this as a feature) You would do the same thing to make a karaoke version of a song if you wanted to. Then, they gave it soft reverb and delay effects. I've noticed that Paramount goes that extra step with their surround remixes on all their older movies as well.

I've done my own surround upmixing for fun, and my results were similar to what is heard on these DVDs, so I figured that must be how they did it.
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#30
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2/11/08 at 10:28pm
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Re: Star Trek TNG Disks look Awful

Checked out the scene from Sarek. I watched on an Oppo 971 at 480p and then on a Toshiba A2 upconverting to 1080i to a 1080p LCD.

No combing that bothered me so much on the first few seasons of X-Files. Upconversion made the picture overall look quite good, considering the source. Sharpness was the most noticeable of improvements, though it still couldn't do anything for the loss of detail in the wider shots or the aliasing around the Enterprise in the flybys.

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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