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Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

#1
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1/30/08 at 1:43pm
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There seem to be very many discs being released lately without their original sound mix. I was reading a review of the Blu-Ray disc of Life of Brian on a website today, and while it mentions the lackluster quality of the 5.1 mix, there was no mention of the complete lack of the original mix on the disc, even though there's a Hungarian 5.1 track (!) on there.

Now, in this day and age, with larger disc capacities and room for many versions of a soundtrack, there is no excuse for NOT putting the original mix on there. This is a thoroughly annoying trend that started on DVD and is now making its way to the HD formats. I'm not saying the powers that be should spring for a lossless or uncompressed original soundtrack on every title, although it would be nice. I just want it to be included, as closely as is possible to its original speaker configuration.

With people talking about replicating the film experience as closely as possible at home (isn't that what HTF is all about?), I thought people would be more passionate on this issue. I know some of you might not be agreement, but including the original sound mix of a film should be just as important as proper visual presentation.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#2
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1/30/08 at 2:56pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Whiile I sample newer mixes, I ALWAYS watch films (at least once, usually as the default choice) with the original sound mix when available. If I prefer the newer mix, I will select it after having gone with the original, but I too wish that the original was available more often.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#3
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1/30/08 at 3:03pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

I'm right there with you on this--even if you feel like you have to add a 5.1 track so people will buy it so it'll sound nice on their systems (even if it won't sound like it did in the theater) what's stopping studios from slapping the original soundtrack on there? Kubrick did his movies in mono for a reason, dagnabbit.
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#4
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1/30/08 at 4:05pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinslot
Kubrick did his movies in mono for a reason, dagnabbit.

Right. If Kubrick liked them so much, WHY aren't they included on the DVD or HD media?

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#5
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1/30/08 at 4:09pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
While I sample newer mixes, I ALWAYS watch films (at least once, usually as the default choice) with the original sound mix when available. If I prefer the newer mix, I will select it after having gone with the original, but I too wish that the original was available more often.

I think that's what annoys me... We should always be given a CHOICE, and it's not as if the studio doesn't have the available materials to give us the option.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#6
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1/30/08 at 4:48pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
Whiile I sample newer mixes, I ALWAYS watch films (at least once, usually as the default choice) with the original sound mix when available. If I prefer the newer mix, I will select it after having gone with the original, but I too wish that the original was available more often.
Same here.
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#7
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1/30/08 at 6:05pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Amen!

Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

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#8
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1/31/08 at 4:51am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Ditto.
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#9
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1/31/08 at 6:25am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS
We should always be given a CHOICE..

I agree. Adding that e.g. Mono-track takes very little space, but gives that "option" for many. I personally listen the 5.1-track in 80% of the time, but when I re-watch the film, I can then choose "original Mono" etc.

But yes, I agree, we should always have that option at least, even when many 5.1-remixes are very good when it comes to "bigger studios".

The problem is even more serious in Europe, where many times the Mono-track is dropped from the R1-release (SD DVD) to make room for these totally, utterly useless dub-tracks. It´s very sad. One reason why I import most of my DVDs (and HD-titles).

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#10
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1/31/08 at 8:44am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Indeed. a mono or stereo mix in "mere" CD quality would be just fine. Not everyone with an HDTV has a surround-sound system.

"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

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#11
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1/31/08 at 10:40am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Agreed. I'm not as hardcore as some, but I usually prefer to watch a film w/ its original soundtrack as well. Often times, it just doesn't feel/sound right at all to have a (fake-sounding) pumped up 5.1 mix, particularly for older films -- and that's somewhat besides the matter of having a faithful (re)presentation of the films.

To some extent, it's almost like the colorization thing w/ old B&W films.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#12
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1/31/08 at 12:15pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Another annoying thing about this is, as some of you have been saying, what if you don't LIKE the new mix? For example, a new DVD of Groundhog Day was released this week, and only includes a 5.1 track. I'm not fond of the mix on this disc, as I think the music overpowers the dialogue in some scenes. On the previous special edition, at least they included the original 2.0 track, and while not wonderful in quality, at least it was there. On the new disc, it's conspicuously absent. Guess I'm holding on to the old disc instead.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#13
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1/31/08 at 1:31pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS
Right. If Kubrick liked them so much, WHY aren't they included on the DVD or HD media?
Quite frankly, because he is dead. Prior to his death, all DVDs, LDs and VHS of his films included the original sound mix to the best of my knowledge.

There's no reason a TrueHD 2.0 track can't be included as an option with all the bandwidth available.
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#14
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1/31/08 at 4:04pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Adkins
Quite frankly, because he is dead. Prior to his death, all DVDs, LDs and VHS of his films included the original sound mix to the best of my knowledge.

There's no reason a TrueHD 2.0 track can't be included as an option with all the bandwidth available.

His death should be no excuse. And I agree with you on the second part. No reason or excuse.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#15
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2/1/08 at 6:07am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
To some extent, it's almost like the colorization thing w/ old B&W films.

I completely agree. By the way, are there any admins on HTF who agree with me?

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#16
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2/1/08 at 1:50pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Allow me to emphasize that not only should the original mix be provided, but it should be provided in LOSSLESS quality.

I watched "20 million miles from earth" on Blu-ray the other night (Ray Harryhousen). It's a 1950's film with all the obvious limitaions of the source material, but Sony actually provides the 2.0 original sound mix in lossless TrueHD.



And yes, even with "compromised" material like this, you can still hear the more open/natural sound of the lossless mix compared to the lossy Dolby core.

I have it on good authority that Disney is (fingers crossed) going to give us the orignal sound mix in lossless for Sleeping Beauty as well.
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#17
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2/1/08 at 2:27pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I have it on good authority that Disney is (fingers crossed) going to give us the orignal sound mix in lossless for Sleeping Beauty as well.

I hope so... when I heard the disc was going to have a 7.1 mix, I rolled my eyes in annoyance.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#18
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2/1/08 at 2:38pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS
I hope so... when I heard the disc was going to have a 7.1 mix, I rolled my eyes in annoyance.

Sleeping Beauty was a Super Technirama 70 film and as such would have had six track magnetic stereophonic sound. They may have added a subwoofer channel to the standard 6 channel mix. Also the original 6 channel mix would have to be remixed to account for modern speaker placement.

I don't have a problem with remixing an old sound track even a mono soundtrack into multi channel 5.1 or the like, as long as the original sound stems are used, or an attempt is made to find the original library sounds that were used for the film. As long as the sounds used are the originals a stereo mix doesn't bother me. Its when newly recorded effects are mixed with vintage sound that it bugs me. A perfect example is Vertigo. The sounds used for the cars are so obviously a new digital recording that it pulls me out of the movie.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#19
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2/1/08 at 3:06pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Sleeping Beauty was a Super Technirama 70 film and as such would have had six track magnetic stereophonic sound. They may have added a subwoofer channel to the standard 6 channel mix. Also the original 6 channel mix would have to be remixed to account for modern speaker placement.

I figured that might be the case, but as far as i know, 6-track mag never had a discrete rear center surround channel. I don't mind them including 7.1, but if they're going to do that, a separate mix as close as possible to the source would be fine. If it was originally a 5/1.0 presentation, a mixed-down 3/1.0 presentation would please me, as it's the closest you can get with our modern sound formats.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#20
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2/1/08 at 3:11pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS
I figured that might be the case, but as far as i know, 6-track mag never had a discrete rear center surround channel. I don't mind them including 7.1, but if they're going to do that, a separate mix as close as possible to the source would be fine. If it was originally a 5/1.0 presentation, a mixed-down 3/1.0 presentation would please me, as it's the closest you can get with our modern sound formats.


As far as I know, you are correct, they never had a rear center channel. In fact the speaker placement for most stereophonic films from the 50s and 60s are different from modern films and would have to be re-mixed to take that into account. I agree they should try to recreate the original intent of the sound mix as closely as possible.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#21
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2/1/08 at 10:22pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
If it was originally a 5/1.0 presentation, a mixed-down 3/1.0 presentation would please me, as it's the closest you can get with our modern sound formats.

I think that Lady And The Tramp DVD is like that... basically a L-C-R "3.0" stereo mix with little or no surround information. They may have downmixed the greater number of front channels into that configuration using phantom-placement between each front main speaker. The result sounds VERY good and very much like they accurately represented the source. The same is true for the original mix on the Sleeping Beauty DVD.
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#22
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2/2/08 at 8:10pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I think that Lady And The Tramp DVD is like that... basically a L-C-R "3.0" stereo mix with little or no surround information. They may have downmixed the greater number of front channels into that configuration using phantom-placement between each front main speaker. The result sounds VERY good and very much like they accurately represented the source. The same is true for the original mix on the Sleeping Beauty DVD.

Then let's hope they include that mix on the Blu-Ray!

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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#23
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2/4/08 at 8:21am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

I could not agree more. This is/was a pet peeve of mine on standard DBDs are well.

The original sound mix should ALWAYS be an option.

ALWAYS.

You'll Believe A Man Can Fly
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#24
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2/4/08 at 8:42am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

I wonder how many people are willing to go the extra step of installing left center and right center front speakers so we can experience pure six-track with the handful of films that are discrete six-track or more. "How the West Was Won", "Ben-Hur", "King of Kings", "Mutiny on the Bounty", "Brothers Grimm", "Oklahoma!", "South Pacific" are a few examples.
I wonder if Warner and Fox would be willing at some point provide these mixes?

Steve Pickard

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#25
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2/4/08 at 8:44am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

it may not be a discrete representation of the original stems, but even a front L/C/R configuration can represent the original "mix" by using phantom-center between the L-C and C-R speakers.
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#26
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2/4/08 at 9:06am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Zardoz is the only title I've seen with a 3.0 audio track. I believe it is intended to do as you describe.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#27
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2/4/08 at 3:24pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Bye Bye Birdie has a 3.0 track in addition to the 5.1 and 2.0 tracks.

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

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#28
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2/4/08 at 8:22pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE also has a discrete 3.0 track, which is the original mix.
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#29
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2/4/08 at 10:38pm
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK
IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE also has a discrete 3.0 track, which is the original mix.

I've been wondering about this one. This is one of my favorite 50s sci-fi films. Did Universal do a mag stripe on this film to get the stereo track? I know that wasn't typically done to flat films. However they did it, the mix and particularly the score sounds great.

I've also wondered because this film becaues it was advertised as being widescreen, I have to assume it was 1.85:1, its clearly not anamorphic. The DVD is 1.33 and it doesn't look like there is tons of extra head room and the sides don't appear to be cut off. I actually saw this in 3D in a theater when I was a kid in the late 70s. I seem to remember it being 1.33 at the time. I'd love to see a 3D HD release of this.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#30
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2/5/08 at 4:26am
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Re: Complaint to Studios: INCLUDE THE ORIGINAL SOUND MIX!

My complaint is that, even when double-dipping, these tracks suddenly go missing when they might have been present on the previous release.

-David Shetterly
www.RockyHorror.com Webmaster
(Rocky Horror Picture Show Official Fan Club)

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