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A few words about...™ El Cid

#91
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3/11/08 at 7:52am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric Easton
Well, I'm late to the party and I wish I never showed! I'm so used to "A few words" from RH being good news, that I just kind of let this pass me by, because I thought an HD version may be on the horizon.

I haven't seen this movie in over 25 years and was looking forward to it... Now, not so much. A big disappointment that I will probably pick up anyway (or at least rent, if I can find it), now, for the story... not so much the presentation. A real lost opportunity.
It is still worth buying, at least in the regular set.

It certainly isn't the definitive SD-DVD release we all craved. But it is still up there as probably the best it will ever look on DVD. I can't see how a release in any other country will be able to improve on it.
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#92
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3/11/08 at 10:27am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
It is still worth buying, at least in the regular set.

It certainly isn't the definitive SD-DVD release we all craved. But it is still up there as probably the best it will ever look on DVD.

Ric: I can agree with this. Not reference material, maybe...but very watchable. And, most certainly, enjoyable.

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#93
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3/30/08 at 6:42pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I rented this film from the. Are we talking about the same film? The transfer looked awful. It was not DD5.1. It was not anamorphic.. There was no studio name on the disc, except the word Garrys. Also under the words El Cid there was chinese or japanese writing, I would assume was the title. I thought El Cid was a restored and pristene release.
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#94
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3/30/08 at 6:57pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Fogerty
I rented this film from the. Are we talking about the same film? The transfer looked awful. It was not DD5.1. It was not anamorphic.. There was no studio name on the disc, except the word Garrys. Also under the words El Cid there was chinese or japanese writing, I would assume was the title. I thought El Cid was a restored and pristene release.
We're not talking about the same dvd release because I don't know what you rented and watched!
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#95
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3/30/08 at 9:16pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
I really tried to like this presentation, but it fell flat visually at every turn.

I first sampled the discs on a 30" HD Sony XBR in my office that I use as a reference. I attempted viewing the disc first via a normal SD player, and then via a Toshiba HD. On both, the image looked too soft for a modern DVD, and color was far from acceptable.

Last night I tried again.

Initially through a properly tuned Lexicon SD player, and then through both HD as well as BD players.

The image that hit my screen was the same, only now on a larger surface the problems were exacerbated.

What I perceive to be the first reel has a shading problem. By that I mean that the image is weak on the left side, with a total lack of black or contrast. My bet would be a field illumination problem during the manufacture of the 35mm element -- not uncommon when optically reduction printing from large format.

While it seemed to go away in reel two (I have not yet had the time to go back and see if it returned in later reels), the color remained flat, the image weak, undefined and more or less unacceptable.

The overall look of the video effort has the appearance of being digitally cleaned a bit, and smoothed for a more pleasant look with the removal of all high frequency information, and then sharpening, which has added the normal EE lines around most everything.

There are scenes which have wide vistas such as a shot of a castle which then pans down a hillside. Color is weak. Detail is non-existent. Greens and browns have turned murky.

A similar scene on a bridge not far into the film has a similar appearance. Underexposed, with blown out skies and no detail.

The pity here is that it's obvious that work went into this product, but what has come out the other end no longer has the feel of a large format epic.

I have no personal knowledge regarding the original elements, but from the most general basis, the OCN should not be faded, and a superior transfer should be attainable by simply running the original negative to an IP and transferring the resultant element in 8 perf Technirama.

For some reason, which makes little sense to me, there has been a huge loss of information in the simple process of creating a 35mm transfer element.

I'll say it again.

I really wanted to like this release, but to my eye, there is little left of the film to make it anything special. Sometimes we're better staying with positive memories.

I should add that the smoothing and removal of high frequency information may only affect an SD release, and a high definition version might look superior, although I have my doubts regarding the film elements.

RAH
I'm disappointed.
I waited a long time for a state-of-the-art transfer of EL CID.
This isn't it.

EL CID is a unique and special film.
There's no other epic quite like it in terms of story and ideas and visual aesthetics and technical execution.

EL CID merits special attention, or at least professionalism and good judgment on the part of those responsible for the transfer process. The average, uninformed consumer has higher standards than whoever supervised this DVD.

The single most important DVD release of the year, and the Weinstein organization has treated it like just any old B movie.
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#96
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3/31/08 at 1:19am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard--W

The single most important DVD release of the year, and the Weinstein organization has treated it like just any old B movie.

I think that's a bit harsh, considering the effort that has been put into the extras, which I think are excellent. The transfer isn't the best - the day-for-night shots during the various battles for Valencia are especially unsatisfactory - but given the problems that have always surrounded the Bronston catalogue I think this El Cid is pretty good.

For me, the single biggest annoyance is the division of the two discs - having the Entr'acte on Disc 1 and Part 2 starting on Disc 2 is a terrible aesthetic mistake which I hope isn't repeated on Fall.
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#97
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3/31/08 at 8:04am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Posted by Billy Fogerty:I rented this film from the. Are we talking about the same film? The transfer looked awful. It was not DD5.1. It was not anamorphic.. There was no studio name on the disc, except the word Garrys. Also under the words El Cid there was chinese or japanese writing, I would assume was the title. I thought El Cid was a restored and pristene release.

Obviously, you did not rent the new Weinstein release. What you rented is apparently a bootleg. Before the Weinstein release, there was no "official" release of El Cid. There were various versions available that were of atrocious quality. many were not anamorphic, and some were not even widescreen.

It has been discussed before, but some rental places do not update their titles. So, if newer versions comes out, such as the Gladiator extended cut, or Kingdom of Heaven extended cut, or an anamorphic version of a title, some rental chains or stores do not order them.

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#98
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3/31/08 at 8:04am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

The copy I rented from NetFlix was not a Weinstein disc. The disc has El Cid on it. Under that was oriental writing. The disc is yellow. It was not anamorphic or in dd. Very blurry picture, almost looked like vhs. This was on a Panny 50" 1080p flatscreen. This means that there are infirior copies of El Cid out there, and NetFlix has them.
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#99
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3/31/08 at 8:46am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianTurner
I think that's a bit harsh, considering the effort that has been put into the extras, which I think are excellent. The transfer isn't the best - the day-for-night shots during the various battles for Valencia are especially unsatisfactory - but given the problems that have always surrounded the Bronston catalogue I think this El Cid is pretty good.

For me, the single biggest annoyance is the division of the two discs - having the Entr'acte on Disc 1 and Part 2 starting on Disc 2 is a terrible aesthetic mistake which I hope isn't repeated on Fall.

In my opionion this movie got a very nice release save for the picture quality. Of course of all things you can screw up in a new DVD release PQ is the last one so this explains the disappointment by many members of this forum about the less than acceptable picture quality that disappoints for both detail and color timing.

I am happy with the extras at least and hope for something better down the road. As supposedly El Cid was still selling very good for a classic title I doubt that this has persuaded anybody to go for better picture quality with their next Bronston release but I will happy if the next release proves me wrong.

Unfortunately we have not heard anything from Weinstein with regard to this release although I am sure there will be somebody fromt he company who reads this forum. I also tried to contact the person who was said to be in charge of the Bronston titles at Weinstein but no answer from there either...

Oliver
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#100
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3/31/08 at 8:59am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

That is incredibly lame of Netflix to not have the official release. They should not even be carrying those imported (probably bootleg) discs. FWIW, Blockbuster Online shows the Weinstein version. I left Netflix for BB Online, and have enjoyed the change.

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#101
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3/31/08 at 9:14am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

the reason it may not be on netflix is the weinstein exclusive rights to rentals at BBV.

netflix would have to buy a retail copy if they went to rent it.

this has been done with other titles so maybe netflix doesnt see el cid as a
need to purchase for rent title.
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#102
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3/31/08 at 9:41am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Tony,that might be true. There was a long wait for this title,so I would think they would get the Weinstein disc. Maybe they have both, and it just depends on who is up next?
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#103
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3/31/08 at 11:28am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianTurner
I think that's a bit harsh, considering the effort that has been put into the extras, which I think are excellent. The transfer isn't the best - the day-for-night shots during the various battles for Valencia are especially unsatisfactory - but given the problems that have always surrounded the Bronston catalogue I think this El Cid is pretty good.

For me, the single biggest annoyance is the division of the two discs - having the Entr'acte on Disc 1 and Part 2 starting on Disc 2 is a terrible aesthetic mistake which I hope isn't repeated on Fall.
Home video is all about the film. Like most people I buy DVD's for the film itself, not for the packaging, and certainly not for the supplements. I cannot imagine anyone buying a DVD for the package or supplements, and not giving priority to how the film is restored / transferred / mastered / authored. Picture and sound quality are everything. The rest is an extra I can take or leave. If DVD's were sold in paper sleeves, I would not be disappointed, providing that the film looks the way it should. EL CID exposes a laziness, a lack of caring, and an unprofessionalism on the part of the Weinstein organization that reflects very badly on that company within the industry. They know it now, too.
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#104
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3/31/08 at 6:07pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard--W
Home video is all about the film. Like most people I buy DVD's for the film itself, not for the packaging, and certainly not for the supplements. I cannot imagine anyone buying a DVD for the package or supplements, and not giving priority to how the film is restored / transferred / mastered / authored. Picture and sound quality are everything. The rest is an extra I can take or leave. If DVD's were sold in paper sleeves, I would not be disappointed, providing that the film looks the way it should. EL CID exposes a laziness, a lack of caring, and an unprofessionalism on the part of the Weinstein organization that reflects very badly on that company within the industry. They know it now, too.
I totally agree with Richard's statement. And now that the Weinstein's know how we all feel about their first Miriam release, do you think they may try a little better when they get around to releasing El Cid on Blu-ray? We can only hope.
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#105
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4/1/08 at 9:09pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Finally got a chance over the Easter Break to screen El Cid completely for some friends. The picture was as expected-reasonable for a SD DVD but no where near as good as it should have been. Faded colours (reds suffering most-and there is a lot of red!), too soft with of course lack of sharpness in medium and long shots. You can't help keep muttering to yourself for 3 hours or so,why oh why no proper restoration on BD!

Sound was poorer than I expected. Showing its age-often thin and weedy. There was some surround- not where it should have been in the first act but making up for it in the battle apart from the missing siege tower rollover.

A major disapointment was the commentary track with Bill Bronston Jnr and Neal Rosendorf whose biography of Bronston Snr we await after the poor Martin effort. Both obviously love the film but their comments are general throughout the whole length of the film-never discussing the funding,casting, filming, etc. Rosendorf expounds on the links with the Franco regime endlessly and how much the Generalissimo identified with the title character. So much that you think it was his home movie and should not have been named El Cid but El Franco.If he was so enamoured with El Cid,I wonder what he thought about TFOTRE with its look at the corruption brought by absolute power?

I always thought with Derek Elley in his wonderfull book "The Epic Film "that El Cid was"the very finest of the finest." Now I am not so sure. It seem more creeky than I remembered it and did not hold up as well as Wyler's Ben Hur. With that announced for BD, it's even more upsetting than El Cid was not accorded a similar honour.
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#106
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4/2/08 at 1:16am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

John,

I chose not to watch El Cid after sampling a few scenes and yours and many others opinions prove that it was the right decision.

Regarding El Cid not holding up so well I think the problem is that El Cid is a movie that is very straightforward and without much irony and humor. It is so much larger than life that it needs to be watched preferably in a large theatrical setting as on a smaller screen and in much lesser resolution no less it loses more of its impact than Ben Hur for example where there are more of the little human moments and humorous bits.

I am most intrigued by your mentioning of the BR release of Ben Hur. Has there been something more definitive from Warner other than that we all expect to see Ben Hur on BR on its 60th anniversary ?

Oliver
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#107
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4/2/08 at 3:18am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianTurner
I think that's a bit harsh, considering the effort that has been put into the extras, which I think are excellent. The transfer isn't the best - the day-for-night shots during the various battles for Valencia are especially unsatisfactory - but given the problems that have always surrounded the Bronston catalogue I think this El Cid is pretty good.

For me, the single biggest annoyance is the division of the two discs - having the Entr'acte on Disc 1 and Part 2 starting on Disc 2 is a terrible aesthetic mistake which I hope isn't repeated on Fall.
I agree that some that some of the comments were extreme and would have little effect on correcting the problems with this release for a future BR release because frankly, some of them were darn right insulting to say the least.




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#108
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4/2/08 at 4:37am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I agree that some that some of the comments were extreme and would have little effect on correcting the problems with this release for a future BR release because frankly, some of them were darn right insulting to say the least.

Crawdaddy

Robert,

you are right about that but Weinstein on the other hand also does not seem to think much about interacting with their customers on a forum like this one even despite the fact that most of us try to keep criticism respectful and constructive.

The fact is that Weinstein with El Cid has produced a release of a very important film where the attention to details for everything but the video and sound quality would make it worthy of a DVD of the year award.

So what can we do to make them listen to us and improve upon those aspects that are lacking and have them give us a high quality Blu-Ray release of El Cid and maybe also better DVD quality for the remaining Bronstons ?

Oliver
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#109
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4/2/08 at 3:48pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverK
John,

I am most intrigued by your mentioning of the BR release of Ben Hur. Has there been something more definitive from Warner other than that we all expect to see Ben Hur on BR on its 60th anniversary ?

Oliver

OliverK, Warners in their big February announcement said that we would get Ben Hur as well as HTWWW in the next 2 years. I think HTWWW as been scheduled for September next.No date for Ben yet but likely next year for its 50th anniversary.
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#110
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4/3/08 at 8:56am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter
OliverK, Warners in their big February announcement said that we would get Ben Hur as well as HTWWW in the next 2 years. I think HTWWW as been scheduled for September next.No date for Ben yet but likely next year for its 50th anniversary.

John,

now I remember the big thread about Ben Hur in the HiDef section.

According to some people who were in Bradford this year at the Widescreen Festival the Ben Hur negative is in very bad shape, so let's hope technology will be advanced enough to allow a Blu-Ray to be done that does the filmjustice.

And thanks for mentioning that book by Derek Elley, I just snatched a copy up on amazon for one cent

I could not belive the price but there it was and I thought I probably could not go wrong with it

Oliver
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#111
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4/3/08 at 10:08am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverK
And thanks for mentioning that book by Derek Elley, I just snatched a copy up on amazon for one cent

I could not belive the price but there it was and I thought I probably could not go wrong with it

Oliver
You can't go wrong with Derek Elley's book at any price. It is one of the best books ever written about a particular movie genre. I bought my copy when the book first came out, and I dip into it after watching any "epic" or "biblical" or historical movie.
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#112
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4/3/08 at 2:43pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin9
You can't go wrong with Derek Elley's book at any price. It is one of the best books ever written about a particular movie genre. I bought my copy when the book first came out, and I dip into it after watching any "epic" or "biblical" or historical movie.


OliverK, I'm pleased for you as you are going to have a good read. Shame it is not better known and has not been updated.I find it invaluable and like Robin9, it comes out before any"epic"screening. Let's have your comments in due course.
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#113
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4/3/08 at 10:30pm
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin9
You can't go wrong with Derek Elley's book at any price. It is one of the best books ever written about a particular movie genre.

I had lunch with Mr Elley yesterday, gave him the new El Cid and just had an email from him praising the extras to the skies. He's delighted his epic book still has some currency - but one cent for all that work?
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#114
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4/4/08 at 12:48am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianTurner
I had lunch with Mr Elley yesterday, gave him the new El Cid and just had an email from him praising the extras to the skies. He's delighted his epic book still has some currency - but one cent for all that work?

I am very happy he likes the extras I have said it before and I am not ashamed to repeat it: The El Cid DVD is still a nice buy for me because of the extras.

Would I like to have the movie in very nice quality, too ?
Of course, but it seems that is not so easy to get, we have been waiting for ten years now.

I am sure Mr. Elley's book is worth much more than 1 cent, but if somebody is offering it for that amount (by mistake I guess) who am I not to buy it, the next cheapest one was more like 50$.

Oliver
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#115
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4/4/08 at 12:56am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter
OliverK, I'm pleased for you as you are going to have a good read. Shame it is not better known and has not been updated.I find it invaluable and like Robin9, it comes out before any"epic"screening. Let's have your comments in due course.

John,

I will report back about the book. I like the fact that Mr. Elley is also a big fan of El Cid. It is one of my favourite epics, too. One thing I like about it compared to others that it takes itself more seriously which is a nice change from Ben Hur and Cleopatra, both movies that tried to be more contemporary to different degrees, not all movies should be the same.

Oliver
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#116
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4/4/08 at 5:01am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

All of the beautiful packaging and extras in the world, no matter how brilliant, can in no way turn the proverbial sow's ear into a silk purse.

There are certain times when it is best to do nothing. Which is why a number of classic titles are yet to make their way to DVD. Work is needed to make things correct, and to give the film and filmmakers proper respect.

El Cid should not be in need of any heroic measures. Everything should be in place to be harvested.

As I noted earlier, this is a film that deserved much, much better treatment. Just a pity.

I would not have released.


RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#117
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4/4/08 at 5:08am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I still think these Miriam collection releases are worth buying.

If these versions don't sell well, then no company will put up the cash to preserve the films properly for blu-ray, or theatrical re-release.

Anyone on the fence should at least buy the standard releases without the paper or bonus disc extras.
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#118
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4/4/08 at 5:48am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

The films do not need to be preserved properly for Blu-Ray.

They need to be preserved, period, which has nothing to do with home video.

These films are on acetate, which decomposes over time.

The message that should be sent to the owners -- not to The Weinstein Company, which I see as an innocent here -- is that if one properly preserves their holdings, and from them, creates quality video masters, that reviews will be good, and an income stream will continue.

Don't take care of them, and the income stream will cease.

And then all one has is a copyright.

Precisely what positive attributes does the copyright for The Patriot (1928) provide the owner?

Sorry, but the more that I think about this, I would suggest that people NOT purchase the film only, as it is in no way representative of the original that it pretends to replicate.

Best if the income stream stops as quickly as possible.

If the owners are unable to take proper care of their holdings, they should simply sell them to others who are more willing to assume the responsibility.

I'll take this one step further.

If the owners truly have no interest in properly parenting these films, and can come up with a reasonable number, I'll buy them, take care of them, and show them precisely what one can do with them on home video, cable, etc., and in editions that will have viewers heads spinning.

I can't make it more simple than that.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#119
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4/4/08 at 5:55am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
I'll take this one step further.

If the owners truly have no interest in properly parenting these films, and can come up with a reasonable number, I'll buy them, take care of them, and show them precisely what one can do with them on home video, cable, etc., and in editions that will have viewers heads spinning.

I can't make it more simple than that.

RAH

A breathtaking offer; let's hope the right people are reading this.
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#120
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4/4/08 at 5:55am
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
If these versions don't sell well, then no company will put up the cash to preserve the films properly for blu-ray, or theatrical re-release.

That's the annoying thing about bad transfers - if you buy them to get a better release later the studio might think they did well enough and if you do not buy them because PQ is bad they say nobody wants this movie anyway, either way you always lose.

Oliver
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