A few words about...™ El Cid

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Bob Lawrence, who was a superb editor, was responsible for El Cid. Unfortunately, we lost him a few years ago.

One possibility is that the negative was cut for auto-select, a process that enabled the lab to create different versions from the same negative. If a continuity or original cutting notes were not followed this could have created the problem. If the audio syncs properly, then this may not be the case.

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Mr. Harris,

You are very right about the ownership and licensing situation hindering more expensive work on El Cid. I have inquired into this last year before the Weinstein deal was announced and there are multiple owners and licensees and as we can see the cost of going back to the original horizontal 35mm elements is considered prohibitive. The same goes for Fall of the Roman Empire and its 65mm elements that are apparently still in good shape but unlikely to be used for the upcoming DVD.

I was asking about the actual costs of creating a proper master as I was wondering what too expensive means. Apparently you have a different take on this than the owners of El Cid and it seems we are rather unlucky El Cid is not owned by you

Oliver Klohs

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Without checking actual prices, I would surmise that an HD transfer of El Cid from original elements, inclusive of conform, color correction and basic clean-up should come in at under $200,000. FotRE should come in at a like amount.

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Thanks for your estimate, I was also given 200000$ as an estimate for FotRE last year.
Apparently more than the parties involved were willing to spend on El Cid.

Oliver Klohs

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Which is crazy, because we now have the technology to make a digital archive copy of the film that could be used as the basis for home video versions for the next decade or more.

But I guess the Weinstein's only have the rights to the films for a limited time, and didn't think they could make money selling the transfer itself.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

If the other releases are handled like El Cid I would indeed be disappointed.

Let's hope that Weinstein will rise to the occasion and pleasantly surprise us with FotRE.

While I also doubt that there will be enough incentive for Weinstein alone to pay all that money for a transfer of a movie they don't own maybe something can be worked out that distributes the costs more evenly between the interested parties, after all both the owners and the other licensees could profit from a master that is derived the proper way.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

"The Fall of the Roman Empire" was on TCM yesterday afternoon and
it looks SO MUCH better than "El Cid" it isn't even funny. Hopefully, the
DVD will be done correctly.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Fall indeed was always superior in both transfer quality and detail of the film elements to El Cid. I hope it will stay that way and that this time the Weinstein DVD will exceed the picture quality of my current French DVD.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Finally got a chance to finish El Cid this weekend.

What an eye-opening experience. Terrific film. Actually exciting to watch. Kinda wish I didn't know the ending (from having read so much about the film here on the HTF). Still carried quite a wallop of an impact, though.

I watched the included trailers to TFotRE and El Cid and was thinking about how much better the restored El Cid looked than either of those trailers. I suppose it's all about perception. In particular, the trailer to TFotRE looked really washed out.

Anyway, El Cid = great story with an epic telling = great entertainment.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

FotRE does look pretty good on my French DVD save for some saturation and alignment issues. The trailer is also on that DVD and it does indeed look horrible but is in no way indicative of the quality of existing transfers of FotRE nor of the quality of the movie. But it sure as hell is extremely cheesy and high up in the running for worst trailer ever - seems almost as if somebody made it because he wanted the movie to fail

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I just read on the Digital Bits that "Man of the West" will be released
on May 20th!!!!

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

It has been the case in the past (even when a single company owns both a movie and its distribution rights) that new materials would not be made because the Domestic and International groups couldn't agree on how to split the costs; or because the TV and homevideo groups couldn't agree. I've even seen times when new materials were made and paid for by one department, and then that department refused to allow the materials to be used by another department.

When rights are shared by multiple companies, things get exponentially worse.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I already got two DVDs of it that look so-so, I hope that this time MGM spent some money on this movie.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Well, I've been meaning to comment on this but have not found the time until now. The transfer quality is only ok as well stated here already but it is great to have this film on dvd finally. I enjoyed watching it and did not fuss at all over the transfer. The film has a way of sweeping you up and you just don't think about the fine points...get it if you like the film or have been waiting to see it. Someday perhaps somebody will strike a great transfer but that will probably be a long wait.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

So where is the surround? Haven't watched it all thru yet but where is the rumble when the siege tower goes over you, the church bells peeling, the voices off when heston and loren meet for the first time in that incredibly photographed scene and the general clunk of metal against metal and stone that should permeate the sound track?
From memory of the LD, the track there was much superior to this "5.1" travesty.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I promise to compare to the Criterion LD which I also own but only after I have watched the movie theatrically or as a Blu-Ray.

I try not to spoil epics by repeated viewings on DVD

By the way I can understand where you are coming from with regard to being unhappy about the picture quality but you have to keep in mind that Weinstein does not own the Bronston movies. So they would not reap the benefits from the money they put into these movies the way that Warner does with Ben Hur for example. As has been pointed out by RAH it is usually the owner of a movie that provides proper masters to the licensee and if this is not the case a kind of compensation scheme should have been worked out.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

So Blu-Ray is now the equivalent of a theatrical viewing? Wonders never cease I guess. I look forward to your next viewing in the real theaters in 1961.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Mr. Harris hits the nail on the head-the transfer looks flat and lifeless- ALMOST monochromatic (a joke-but still) dull, dull, dull
I dont recommend using Paintbox to fix the colors, but they are really kind of-drab.

I though so on the Criterion Laserdisc.
The really odd thing was the restored trailer included-
it looked RIGHT-vibrant color, not oversaturation, but alive! plus better shading and blacks, I cant speak of EE because I own a 32" set.
But I am disappointed-I felt the same way about the last Errol Flynn ROBIN HOOD. desaturated.
(and for that matter-the same problems were present on the last BARON MUNCHAUSEN disc-all of the vibrant color palete, the detail, the nuances were lost-gone, flat-unlike the Criterion -or my preference, the Columbia laserdisc- the film is a true wonder to behold-if done right.

I do hope they get ABM right this time.

I speak as J*8*P- since im a little more knowledgeable

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Hello Russell,

no a Blu-Ray is not at all equivalent to a theatrical viewing especially not for large format films and I would really like to know what I have written here or in other places that makes you think of this as my opinion.

The facts are that we cannot turn back time although you can be sure that I would love to have back the cinema of the mid 50ies to the late 60ies with all those large format films in the theaters on huge curved screens.

So I have to make a decision for every movie between my desire to watch it and the medium and quality of the medium it is available in. With El Cid I decided to wait for a Blu-Ray version for now while still looking out for opportunities to watch it theatrically.

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I think we are going to have a long wait for a BD. I decided not to wait given it has taken so long for it to surface on dvd at all in anything approaching a "proper" version.I never puchased the previous released european versions for quality reasons. I can live with this version but after seeing what can be done on BD, it just makes me angry that we are stuck with this transfer for the foreseeable future.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I can understand your reasoning very well - But I watched the French DVD last year and I do not regret it as it has slightly better PQ than the Weinstein edition although it only has a 2.0 soundtrack. But I watched all of the extras and I do now think that i deserve something better than DVD quality to fully appreciate El Cid

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I wonder whose restoring these things for Weinstein. I know the team behind Dragon Dynasty is astoundingly incompetent in some areas

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Posted by john a. hunter:
Are you sure? As I recall, there was little, if any "surrounds" on the LD 5.1 track. I think the surrounds were only heard on the 2.0 track. I will try to listen to mine this week. I have my LD player unconnected right now, but will try to get it re-installed this weekend.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Perhaps it was the pro logic track on an earlier release that I'm thinking off. Will be interested on your thoughts after you have checked the disc.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I was informed by a reliable source that the dvd 5.1 track is the same as the one made for the Criterion laserdisc. The surround channel on the original 4-track stereo mix (L,C,R,S) was minimal with mostly trumpet fanfares. The surround track was beefed up for the 5.1 as well as adding an LFE track.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I've only dipped into the film but I have yet to hear any surround at all!

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

So, how has "El Cid" sold? 20,000 copies? 50,000?

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I would like to know that, too. Although I would think that classic titles do also sell pretty well in the long run this is a special case of a movie that is practically new to the US DVD market.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Well, I'm late to the party and I wish I never showed! I'm so used to "A few words" from RH being good news, that I just kind of let this pass me by, because I thought an HD version may be on the horizon.

I haven't seen this movie in over 25 years and was looking forward to it... Now, not so much. A big disappointment that I will probably pick up anyway (or at least rent, if I can find it), now, for the story... not so much the presentation. A real lost opportunity.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

The words 'Limited Edition' may actually be true in the LE's case; at least one etailer is now showing it to be OOP.