A few words about...™ El Cid

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Amen to that and best of luck in your endeavour !

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Posted by Oliver K:
Sadly, this is true. The same debate raged over George Lucas' release of the Star wars OOT in a non-anamorphic version. Many people said they wouldn't buy such a travesty, and many said if they didn't then Lucas would never release an anamorphic OOT, but others suggested that if everybody bought that version that Lucas would say he had done enough, as sales would then show that people liked what they got, so why do another release, etc...


Posted by john h hunter:
I actually feel the opposite way. I find that El Cid holds up much more than Ben-Hur. Heston apparently believed as you do. I just think El Cid is the cinematic equivalent of a great medieval epic poem.

I was not even as impressed as some were about the extras on the El Cid disc. The "Making of" feature was little more than a rant by Ben Barzman's widow against Charlton Heston. I would have preferred a less gossipy feature.

Good luck to RAH in his endeavor. Id buy a Blu-ray player for a proper release of El Cid.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

There is no endeavor, but thank you.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

It is annoying that in 2008 a company doesn't realise that FIRST you preserve a film photochemically, THEN you release it on DVD, blu-ray, cable, limited theatrical. At least Fox and Warner realise that is the order the process should take - assuming you want to be proud of putting your trademark on the finished release.

The trouble is, the money these films made during theatrical, VHS and LaserDisc release has all been spent (probably many times over). For preservation to occur they aren't going to get a loan from a bank. They need new money, and my guess is that will come from the Miriam Collection DVDs.

I appreciate the reverse argument that says it is bad to reward companies that put out inferior releases. But these films need to be pushed onto family and friends so they gain a reputation that will justify better releases down the track. If they don't sell then it is easier for the company to say there just isn't demand for the films, rather than critiquing the quality of the video transfer. Sadly, it is easier to just let the films rot in a vault.

If only a brave executive at Warner or Fox decided to buy these films. I mean the rights, the negatives, everything. Warner showed what amazing work they could do with King of Kings, they could've produced a pretty amazing Bronston boxed set including the epics, plus Jack London and John Paul Jones.

If only Anthony Mann lived well into the 1970s and deservingly gained a reputation on par with Hawks, Ford, Hitchcock and Wilder. If Mann had more of a reputation these films would've been preserved 10 years ago, it wouldn't of taken 10 years for U.S. DVD releases, and we would now be enjoying DVDs made from large format elements.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

They realize it, Simon, but they reason that an attractive package with some extras is all that's needed to satisfy consumer demand. Few consumers are as knowledgeable or as picky as members of Home Theater Forum. Most film buffs who care enough about a title to buy it or rent it are satisfied with less. Setting aside the preservation issue for a moment, it is possible to make a much better transfer of the existing elements, as indicated in Robert Harris' posts. Let's be realistic: the Weinstein Company could have done a better job at the most basic level, they just didn't want to be bothered. It really is a question of attitude.

Not likely. STAR WARS, maybe. But EL CID is not a cultural phenomenon reflected in mega bucks. The financial return from a home video release of EL CID is not going to be sufficient to pay for a photochemical preservation. And even if it were, once the cost of a home video project is recovered through sales, the notion to channel profit into preservation never occurs to studio execs, who have other priorities.

I haven't watched the supplements, but any rant against Charlton Heston on a DVD in which he stars seems to me inappropriate and in extremely bad taste. Because of his failing health, Heston is unable to defend himself, so it is also unfair. If he were able to defend himself, most viewers would probably come around to his way of thinking once they hear what he has to say. Remember that without Heston's commitment and dedication there would be no EL CID in the first place.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Good question, and one I hope the copyright holders of old films will consider. Photochemical preservation is a sound investment with a profitable outcome.

Digital masters are not preservation. No one knows if digital masters will last. It is too soon to tell, but the early signs are not encouraging.


I would ask everyone to NOT buy this DVD until a proper transfer is made of the existing elements. This isn't it. Of course, a photochemical preservation followed by a home video release is preferable.

A generous offer and an interesting proposition. I hope you will shop it around at the executive level. You'll have no problem getting endorsements from the heavy hitters. In fact, you might be astonished at just how much endorsement you will receive. If I were a banker, you'd have the funds already.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

That has been my gripe form the beginning - according to news from 2006 I think Warner was in the running for the rights but did not get them - maybe they wanted to buy everything off the owners and did not succeed. RAH wants to buy everything now so let us hope he succeeds.


Very true. For the quality of movies he made he is surprisingly unknown. I think none of his movies is available in a quality that could be called very good and he has many very good movies to his name.

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Maybe I'm a glass half full guy, but I just can't see how not buying these films will result in better releases in the near future. More likely it will result in them being left in the vault unpreserved for another decade.

Remember, it took a decade for these films to start being issued on DVD in the U.S. If the Miriam Collection releases don't sell well, it will be another 10 years before they are revisited for a HD release probably using the sames masters they are using for these DVDs.

I completely agree that in a technical sense home video releases has nothing to do with preserving the films photochemically. However, economically, home video has everything to do with motivating and funding film preservation.

Does anyone really think these films will ever make money theatrically to justify preservation? I wish we could say that there is a demand for 40+ year old Anthony Mann films in the current theatrical marketplace, but sadly I don't think that is the case.

The carrot that will motivate preservation is home video. Sadly, the fact these films were made by important filmmakers, and are important records of film art isn't enough in this case because they aren't owned by a major studio / corporation with deep enough pockets.

So maybe the best strategy is to buy or rent the DVDs, then write to the copyright holders complaining that the quality is substandard, and encouraging them to invest the license fees to preserve the films forever. Their grand children will appreciate it when the films are still generating money 50 years from now.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Posted by Simon Howson:
I agree with all that. El Cid is one of my favorite films. It was #1 on my list of movies I wanted on DVD. I have never seen this movie on a theater screen. I have only seen it on broadcast TV, Laserdisc, the French DVD and now the Miriam edition. Is one never supposed to ever see El Cid unless it is released in pristine condition? How long should one wait? I'm 51 now. In another 10 years, if I'm still alive, I'll be 61. I do not want to depart this vale of tears with "see El Cid" still on my to-do list. Several people have posted here how they had never seen the film, but checked out this DVD, and were really impressed.

It's a shame they didn't do more than essentially make a DVD of the laserdisc, but IMO a shitty version of El Cid is better than none. If a better one comes along, or if it gets a theatrical release, I'm there. For now, I will have to make do with what I have. I've watched it twice now. Yes, i grouse about the things I do not like about it, but the enjoyment of the film is greater than my annoyance of the piss-poor job that the rights owners, Weinsteins, or whoever did with it.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I used to own a Brazil/Portugese all-region disc that did not include the overture, entr'acte or exit music, but at least it was in the right ratio (the same company also brought out ROMAN EMPIRE but in 1:85 and just the bare bones of the film) and it was before any announcement by the Weinsteins.

I actually thought the release was well done-I bought the deluxe edition for the goodies and will do the same with FOTRE.
Warning Spoiler! Click to show and that magnificent chord on the organ it was worth the price. I thought that the commentaries were very good, although the section on the restoration had one glaring error-no one was using nitrate film by 1961! and the gentleman interviewed gave the impression that this film was shot on that stock! Someone should have made some edits. . .

To the person who mentioned HOW THE WEST WAS WON, my friend Scott Eyman (Lubitsch, Ford and Louis B. Mayer biographer and commentator on previous discs) is currently working on that project and I am so looking forward to it. I went to the most recent showing of the film at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood, and if you have never seen the film before or have only seen it on home video (even on DVD) you really have not seen this movie . I really hope that the powers that be decide to master this in "Smileyvision" to eliminate the distortion that happens when it is projected flat.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I'm in a similar situation. I was too young to remember much about my theatrical experience with El Cid, but after watching it more than a couple of times many years later, it became a favorite film of mine. Sure, this dvd presentation is mediocre at best, but its still the best I've seen it or at least have any vivid recollection of viewing this fine film. So I will hold my nose and continue to view this dvd until a better video presentation comes along. I'm sure there are many of us that are in similar situations and I for one will not suggest to them how to spend their money as they will have to make their own choice in this matter.




Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Now you are a glass half empty guy

Cleopatra exists as a 70mm print and is shown around the world in 70mm venues. Most would agree that El Cid is a better movie than Cleopatra and it is also visually stunning and with two charismatic lead actors - why should it not be justified to produce a print or two or even 5 of El Cid ? Don't forget that those prints do not cost that much money compared to the whole process of creating new elements so for that expense you are able to show the movie all around the world in the finest possible presentation, which is a great thing to promote an upcoming deluxe Blu-Ray edition and vice versa

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

OliverK...

How, precisely, would you suggest that someone create 70mm prints of El Cid that "do not cost that much money?"

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I thought he meant that while the preservation itself would cost several hundred thousand dollars (for each Bronston film), once that has been done, release prints from the preservation negative are relatively inexpensive. I'm assuming the prints would have restored digital, rather than magnetic analog sound.

How much do new 70mm prints cost? My guess would be around $10,000 each for a 3 hour film. Is that about right?

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Preserving El Cid would not take it to 65mm negative.

If a 65mm printing element did exist, the initial print could easily run close to six figures with color correction. Each additional print could be had for around 30k.

Reading the past several additions to the FotRE thread sounds extremely promising. It would be wonderful if image problems only affected El Cid.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I had the number of 30000 in mind for a print which compared to the costs of an HD master for around 200000 would be pretty low. Of course I failed to remember that it would not be that easy to just produce a print or two from the original negative for El Cid as it has been shot in horizontal 35mm (Super Technirama 70) that cannot simply be printed to 70mm anymore. I remember that it was hard work to finally get 70mm prints for Spartacus when you did that restoration but somehow my enthusiasm got the best of me

I was quoted a cost not so far from the first number for the print that was done for Cleopatra by the way which in retrospect strikes me as pretty odd. Isn't it that at first you would have to make certain adjustments to make a print turn out the way it is satisfactory and would that not necessitate one or more prints that are just done to get there ? Correct me if I am wrong here but this is how I understand these things.

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

A good color timer can go up to five or so prints to fine tune, which is built into the cost of an Answer Print.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

That would obviously make the price of an added print or two much more significant.

You have restored Lawrence of Arabia, Vertigo and Spartacus, with all of them being re-released theatrically. Can you comment on whether those rereleases were succcesful enough to cover the costs of the additional prints made ?

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Sad news tonight, as Charlton Heston has passed away at 83.

His tribute thread.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ml#post3353754




Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

That is sad. One of the great men of cinema and one of the very few who really knew how to "project" in epic movies. (One of the "extras" in the Ben Hur DVD shows tests of other actors trying out for the movie. Compared with Charlton Heston they are laughably inadequate.)

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

He was 84. He was born October 4, 1923. I have been trying to get the IMDB to fix that error for years (they've always had it 1924).

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Is that an error that Heston perpetuated during his career?

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Maybe, as reference books from Maltin and Thomson have a 1924 birthdate, but others like the AFI Desk Reference and The Film Encyclopedia have the correct birthdate. I don't understand why he would perpetuated the error because he was just 27 years old, the year his first films were released like "Dark City".






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

We can be happy to be able to own "his" movies on DVD now. A few are still needed, e.g. Treasure Island (by his son).

I will check out a few I didn't know that well (thanks, Crawdaddy, to list those in the tribute thread!), but it was an absolute pleasure already to receive El Cid last week!


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Not at all. For one thing, in his 1978 book of his own personal diaries called THE ACTOR'S LIFE, he frequently mentioned his birthday every year or so. I recall in one of the 1973 entries when he wrote that he was about to turn 50.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I wouldn't think he would change it on purpose based on what I stated earlier. Perhaps the mistake was made when a studio gave out the wrong birth year in a press release early in his career and that mistake circulated over the years.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I just bought El Cid

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Incredibly enough I got that book for the price of one cent and it is indeed worth so much more - after reading about some movies that I know very well I can say that for me it handles the epic genre and its films very competently.

I have to say it is very well written and I also agree a lot with what he has to say about these movies. I especially like the fact that this is a book by somebody who starts off liking the epic and not somebody who is out to demistify or denigrate it. For lovers of the genre this is of much more value than a book by somebody who basically thinks that most epics are silly which of course is much more fashionable these days and probably the reason we do not see this book in print anymore.

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Epics are a fascinating genre, but it is dead. The modern day Hollywood films that try to be epics don't cut it IMO.

I was reading an interviews book with Howard Hawks a few weeks ago, and he says the only reason he made Land of the Pharaoh's was because of CinemaScope. He saw the format and knew he had to find a script to make use of the format.

I can't think of any filmmakers doing the same these days.

Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

john, it has been almost 2 months, but I finally forced myself to pull out my 62" set and stereo rack to re-connect the optical cable that was required to enable the AC-3 sound on my laserdisc player to hear the Dolby Digital tracks on some of my laserdiscs. I listened to several scenes from the Criterion Dolby Digital and Pro Logic tracks on the El Cid disc. It was as I remembered it-good quality sound, but virtually no action on the surround tracks. The intermission music had a bit of an echo, but none of the action sequences have any surrounds on the DD track. In the scene that opens Part Two, as the Cid comes though the doors, you can hear just a ghost of echo in the trumpet fanfare (I held my ear against the surround speaker). In the scene where the Cid announces "Valencia for Alfonso!". you can hear the barest echo of Heston's voice, but none from the crowd.

For the final sequence, as the doors open and the organ cue starts, the organ is heard in full surround. The final music cue, of the El Cid theme with organ and voice is also in full surround. None of the rest of the sequence has any surround info. I compared these scenes on the pro-logic track, and you could hear a lot on the surround tracks, but they seemed to me to be merely echos of the front sound. I confess I did not spend a lot of time listening to this version, but when I switched from 2.0 to 5.1 and back, I felt that the 5.1 sound had more presence and depth. (BTW, my 5.1 sound was definitely enabled on the laserdisc player, as my Onkyo receiver's Dolby Digital light was on. I also listened to a couple of DD discs with definite specific surrounds, like Star Trek: First Contact, and there were 5.1 surrounds all over the place).

I then compared the laserdisc with the new DVD. The sound is almost identical, save for those tiny bits of echo I heard in a few scenes on the laserdisc. As with the laserdisc, the final sequence features full organ surrounds.

On other interesting thing: the chapter stops are identical on the Criterion laserdisc and DVD. Even the names of the chapter stops are the same on both.