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A few words about...™ El Cid

#1
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I saw El Cid when it played in NYC in 70mm, and the memory of the size and scope of the production is still with me.

The new DVD is a step up from the old laserdisc, but unfortunately, it still falls far short of representing the film on the DVD format.

And this is a pity.

I really tried to like this presentation, but it fell flat visually at every turn.

I first sampled the discs on a 30" HD Sony XBR in my office that I use as a reference. I attempted viewing the disc first via a normal SD player, and then via a Toshiba HD. On both, the image looked too soft for a modern DVD, and color was far from acceptable.

Last night I tried again.

Initially through a properly tuned Lexicon SD player, and then through both HD as well as BD players.

The image that hit my screen was the same, only now on a larger surface the problems were exacerbated.

What I perceive to be the first reel has a shading problem. By that I mean that the image is weak on the left side, with a total lack of black or contrast. My bet would be a field illumination problem during the manufacture of the 35mm element -- not uncommon when optically reduction printing from large format.

While it seemed to go away in reel two (I have not yet had the time to go back and see if it returned in later reels), the color remained flat, the image weak, undefined and more or less unacceptable.

The overall look of the video effort has the appearance of being digitally cleaned a bit, and smoothed for a more pleasant look with the removal of all high frequency information, and then sharpening, which has added the normal EE lines around most everything.

There are scenes which have wide vistas such as a shot of a castle which then pans down a hillside. Color is weak. Detail is non-existent. Greens and browns have turned murky.

A similar scene on a bridge not far into the film has a similar appearance. Underexposed, with blown out skies and no detail.

The pity here is that it's obvious that work went into this product, but what has come out the other end no longer has the feel of a large format epic.

I have no personal knowledge regarding the original elements, but from the most general basis, the OCN should not be faded, and a superior transfer should be attainable by simply running the original negative to an IP and transferring the resultant element in 8 perf Technirama.

For some reason, which makes little sense to me, there has been a huge loss of information in the simple process of creating a 35mm transfer element.

I'll say it again.

I really wanted to like this release, but to my eye, there is little left of the film to make it anything special. Sometimes we're better staying with positive memories.

I should add that the smoothing and removal of high frequency information may only affect an SD release, and a high definition version might look superior, although I have my doubts regarding the film elements.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#2
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

very sad
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#3
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

That's definitely disappointing to hear. Based on your comments I'll be giving this a rental to see for myself before deciding if this is a title I'm going to buy. Appreciate the review!

DVD & Blu-ray - It's all about the movies!
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#4
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Mr Harris, thank you for your insightful comments as always.

I was under the impression that the work undertaken by martin scorsese's film foundation in the early 90's on this title, was to preserve the negative and create 65mm prints for theatrical showing (as well as 35mm prints such as used for the criterion transfer a decade ago) . But recently commentor's on this site have said that all that occured was that new 35mm prints were created with little or no preservational work to the O-neg, with your contacts do you have any idea if this is correct or not?

It seem's to have been a terrible missed opportunity if this is the case and given that at the very least some newly struck 35mm prints were created it does question to what standard they were made if this is the result.
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#5
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

ouch.

i planned on waiting for a hd version anyway.
a rent was my only option at this point
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#6
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Guess I'll wait before pulling the trigger on this one.

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

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#7
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I checked this out on a regular tube TV (19") and it looked
pretty decent, but then I tried it out on a 36" HDTV and it
looked less than great. It certainly doesn't match the transfers
of "Ben-Hur," "Cleopatra," "Spartacus," "King of Kings," and "The
Ten Commandments." I imagine they did the best they could for
the PRICE they were willing to do it for, but I was hoping for A LOT
MORE!

However, I MUST SAY the package is EXCELLENT! I love the re-production
of the program, comic, and the extras on the actual DVD. People should
really pick up the box set for only $25 bucks on Amazon instead of just
getting the stand-alone DVD.

Hey, Mr. Harris - What do you know about the elements for "The Fall
of the Roman Empire." I thought the DVD version of that film looked
superior to the DVD of "El Cid." I wonder if they'll have a better looking
transfer for "FOTRE" than they were able to muster for El Cid"?
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#8
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Compared to Robert Harris, I'm J6P. But, IMHO, I thought El Cid was a beautiful transfer, at least in comparison to most of my other 2:35 DVDs. Rich colors, almost zero grain, good detail, edge enhancement not noticeable on my 46" screen, fed by my Toshiba HD-A30.
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#9
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
What I perceive to be the first reel has a shading problem. By that I mean that the image is weak on the left side, with a total lack of black or contrast. My bet would be a field illumination problem during the manufacture of the 35mm element -- not uncommon when optically reduction printing from large format.
At least one person who saw it projected in H.D. at the AFI screening noticed this same problem see their comments on rec.arts.movies.tech here

The problem is that the rights to this film keep bouncing around all over the place, so obviously the Weinstein's can't justify going back to the negative.

Which of course is really sad, because now the digital tools and home video formats exist that could actually do the OCN justice.

But as always, it seems that money considerations have over ruled the chance to actually preserve this film forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickDA
I imagine they did the best they could for
the PRICE they were willing to do it for, but I was hoping for A LOT
MORE!
Exactly...
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#10
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I have no personal information regarding any of the Bronston titles.

FotRE should have been photographed on Kodak 5251, which means that if kept at a reasonable temp and humidity, it should be easily printable for color.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#11
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

From rec.arts.movies.tech

"Monday evening, January 28th, the American Film Institute's Silver
Theatre showed a high definition video version of "El Cid." Each
attendee received a copy of the 40-page program reproduction that will
appear in the DVD boxed set. The screening was preceded by remarks from
Mike Clark, film critic for USA Today, and by a spokesman for Genius
Productions who worked with the Weinstein Company on producing the DVD.
The picture quality was only so-so. The left-most portion of the picture
was somewhat blurry. The theater management attributed this to
"keystoning" of the picture. I'm not entirely sure what that means, but
I believe that it has to do with the projector being off axis with the
screen. Otherwise the picture was OK, with good color. Even at its best,
however, the picture was not up to the 35mm print I saw at the AFI in 1993.
Regarding the music--another mixed bag. The sound was excellent, the
music bright and clear. But the AFI dispensed with the overture in its
entirely, perhaps reasoning (incorrectly as far as I was concerned) that
after the speeches, no one would be interested in listening to a
4-minute overture before the start of the film proper. At the
intermission point, following the final notes of the first act (and true
to the DVD mastering), the entr'acte immediately began. The entr'acte
played completely through, while the intermission card stayed on the
screen. Only then did the house lights come up. Following the
intermission, the second act began without further introductory music,
with Rodrigo bursting through the doors of Alfonso's throne room. At the
end of the film, the choral exit music was properly played.
Despite its limitations, I fear that this may be the best "El Cid" we
may ever again see. I despair that any good 35mm prints remain. On a
brighter note, the spokesman from Genius stated that the AFI may have
future video showings of the other Bronston films as they are released
to DVD, starting with "The Fall of the Roman Empire" in April. As I have
only see FOTRE on a 27 inch screen, this will likely be my only chance
to see it on a 40 foot screen. "

The projection problem noted above is a separate issue from the problem that I'm seeing.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#12
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

The screenshots on DVD Beaver look good though. I'll be picking it up.
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#13
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Posted by R.A.H.:
Quote:
I really wanted to like this release, but to my eye, there is little left of the film to make it anything special. Sometimes we're better staying with positive memories.

I wish that the film had been properly restored, but I have to say there is plenty left to make watching it special. It is certainly a step up from the laserdisc. IMO, El Cid is too important a film to consign to memory of some great, past big-screen showing. Certainly, one need not forget those memories, but many people can appreciate this DVD. Unless someone is going to pony up millions for restoration, this is as good as it will get.

I remember my early days of home video in the late 70's, when I counted myself fortunate to tape a grainy 16mm print off TV of one of my favorite movies. I remember the thrill of getting Citizen Kane on VHS from a company called Nostalgia Merchant. There is no way this El Cid is as bad as all that.

If you are a fan of the film, or Heston, or Rozsa, or have always wanted to see the film, this DVD is a must-have, IMO. I am by no means blown away by the DVD, but I think it is watchable. i'd certainly double dip an improved HD version or restored or remastered version, but I'll take this one for now. It's kind of like those Tyrone Power films that were either not restored by Fox or minimally restored by Fox in their Power box set. They could have/should have done more, but I at least appreciated that they released what they had.

Onkyo TX-SR606
Toshiba HD-A2. HD-A3
Panasonic DMP-BD60
Mitsubishi WD-62725 62" DLP

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#14
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I'm not certain where the concept of "restoration" came from.

Although there may be some problems with the elements, I would believe that the film should NOT need to be restored, merely printed to proper elements from original materials.

The cost to create a new quality video master would not be prohibitive. Criterion did so for The Leopard.

While the creation of a 65mm printing dupe would not be inexpensive, it would certainly be easy to do so for 70mm printing.

Weinstein is a quality organization, and there is obviously something more going on in regard to the availability of elements than meets the eye. If, for example, only US rights are held, one can hardly expect them to invest in the creation of new elements without others sharing.

One would hope that the owner(s) of the copyright would wish to see the film viewed in the best light possible.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#15
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I guess where I said "restoration", I guess I should have said "mastered from better elements". Many of us here use the word restoration in error. We are really meaing that we want to see the image "restored" to what it should be. I suppose one meaning of the word "restored" could encompass what I meant. For example, the Stuart dynasty was "restored" after the fall of Cromwell. However, this did not mean that new Stuarts had to be created. They simply returned from exile and the late king's son mounted the throne. In that sense, when I said "restored" in relation to El Cid, I meant something along those lines-a return to the original.

It is sad that such a major film appears to be such an unwanted stepchild. However, I still think that 10 or so years after the dawning of DVD that it is good to see it released in a decent if unremarkable version.

Onkyo TX-SR606
Toshiba HD-A2. HD-A3
Panasonic DMP-BD60
Mitsubishi WD-62725 62" DLP

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#16
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I watched the 17-min. doc on Anthony Mann and I thought it was
excellent! I do wish it could've been longer though.

I've ALWAYS thought "Fall of the Roman Empire" looked vastly superior (at
least on home video) than "El Cid" ever has. My Imgine Entertainment
laserdisc of "FOTRE" looks better than the just released region 1 DVD of
"El Cid." Could it be that "FOTRE" was just filmed better? It had double the
buget and I guess more could've been spent on the film stock, cameras,
or lenses, right? I don't know the facts, but "FOTRE" has always been
SHARPER and more COLORFUL than "El Cid."
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#17
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickDA
I watched the 17-min. doc on Anthony Mann and I thought it was
excellent! I do wish it could've been longer though.

I've ALWAYS thought "Fall of the Roman Empire" looked vastly superior (at
least on home video) than "El Cid" ever has. My Imgine Entertainment
laserdisc of "FOTRE" looks better than the just released region 1 DVD of
"El Cid." Could it be that "FOTRE" was just filmed better? It had double the
buget and I guess more could've been spent on the film stock, cameras,
or lenses, right? I don't know the facts, but "FOTRE" has always been
SHARPER and more COLORFUL than "El Cid."

You cannot judge the original photography of "El Cid" by the way it is represented on the laserdisc or dvd. El Cid was the only Bronston title, back in the days of the Image laserdisc releases, that went through Scorsese and Miramax. The other Bronston titles were handled properly. I.P.'s or equally good materials were provided for those masters and looked fantastic for their time, and still do, and to me photographic/color-wise represent the way the films were originally. As presently stated, the El-Cid transfer was made from inferior elements - from a 35mm low-con print - in telecine and this source is what has been used today.
As has been quoted, when I enquired why Weinstein did not go to the expense of creating a new IP, a member of the HTF retorted with two words 'TOO EXPENSIVE!'.

Steve Pickard

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#18
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
If you are a fan of the film, or Heston, or Rozsa, or have always wanted to see the film, this DVD is a must-have, IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig99
I thought El Cid was a beautiful transfer, at least in comparison to most of my other 2:35 DVDs. Rich colors, almost zero grain, good detail, edge enhancement not noticeable on my 46" screen, fed by my Toshiba HD-A30.



El Cid has always been a favorite of mine, I bought the dvd a couple of weeks ago. I respect Mr. Harris opinion but to my eyes it looked perfectly acceptable. I'd hate to think people who have waited patiently for this to finally appear on DVD are now cancelling their orders.



Looking forward to Fall of the Roman Empire.
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#19
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I cancelled mine. I will rent it from NetFlix first. I didnt have anything else to get this week anyway. It will do me good to miss a week on Amazon, or Best Buy, every now and again.
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#20
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

This doesn't have the "snap" that many other well-transferred large-format films have on DVD, but it's not bad enough to require a cancellation. There's definiately something "off" about the image, but I didn't notice excessive noise reduction smearing or even edge enhancement besides a few shots (after skimming). The color looks a bit subdued and black levels aren't as inky as I'd expect. The best Technirama films I've seen on DVD are MGM's 16x9 remasters of The Pink Panther and Zulu. Zulu is a 10 to my eyes, so I'd rank El Cid as 8. Even Criterion's The Leopard had way too much edge enhancement that mess up an otherwise gorgeous transfer.

I paid for the limited edition and it was still worth it. It's not as good as it should have been, but it's far from being a bad DVD.

Tell The Weinstein Company to release Richard Williams' animated masterpiece The Thief and the Cobbler on DVD in Panavision widescreen and uncut! See and hear what you're missing from their Bitsy Award winner of Worst Standard Edition DVD of 2006 on YouTube!
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#21
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Please DON'T cancel any orders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want this release to be a successful one, so that they do the
right job on the future titles.

However, the transfer WASN'T as good as it could've/should've
been. That's a fact!
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#22
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickDA
Please DON'T cancel any orders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want this release to be a successful one, so that they do the
right job on the future titles.

However, the transfer WASN'T as good as it could've/should've
been. That's a fact!

But, Patrick. That raises the age-old question here on the HTF...

Is it better to buy the release to encourage future Bronston release...or is it better to NOT buy the release to discourage the sub-par transfers?

Tough call. I will probably bite when I have it in my hands at a B&M.

There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself. Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!

Top Ten Ways to Find Good Deals on DVDs and Blu-ray...
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#23
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
I've ALWAYS thought "Fall of the Roman Empire" looked vastly superior (at least on home video) than "El Cid" ever has.

I think the El Cid DVD looks better than the FOTRE laserdisc on my HDTV in terms of image quality. Just having it in anamorphic means a lot. However, I have always been more impressed by Mann's widescreen compositions in FOTRE than those of El Cid. Mann was obviously a genius at widescreen filmmaking, and there are IMHO more stunningly beautiful shots in FOTRE than in almost any widescreen film. However, El Cid is much the better film, IMO, due to the emotional impact of the movie, the performances, etc. As I scanned through some scenes of the El Cid DVD, I still get a little choked up at the final sequence, of the Cid on his white horse emerging from the sally port, with the 5.1 organ cue of Rozsa's magnificent music. FOTRE is probably vastly superior in terms of composition, but I don't think it has been released in a version as good as the new El Cid DVD, and the film is simply not as emotionally involving as El Cid. But FOTRE is a knockout visually.

Folks, take a breath, and get some perspective on this. Remember the thousand or so page thread on the "Star Wars Discussion From the Bits"? I can still hear the whine in people's voices as they posted "just give us the Star wars OOT anamorphic! We don't care if it is remastered! We just want an anamorphic OOT!" Well, many bought the crappy non-anamorphic OOT because they felt they had to have at least one version of the OOT. This version of El Cid is way better than that OOT was. If you are going to cancel your orders of this disc (at $16.99 from Amazon, it is a steal), at least rent it.

I have never seen El Cid on a big screen, so I cannot comment on how the DVD compares to that experience. I first saw it on the CBS Late Movie in the early 80's, and it was in foolscreen and cut to boot. Yet, I still found it to be an impressive epic. I paid something like $69.99 for Criterion's laserdisc, and this DVD is far better looking than than that. I have watched the laserdisc many times, and I kept noticing details in the picture on the DVD that I had never noticed before on the laserdisc.

Quote:
Is it better to buy the release to encourage future Bronston release...or is it better to NOT buy the release to discourage the sub-par transfers?

It took 10 years of DVD releases to get to this release of El Cid. How old do you think you will be before a 1961 epic like this gets released in a perfect version?

Onkyo TX-SR606
Toshiba HD-A2. HD-A3
Panasonic DMP-BD60
Mitsubishi WD-62725 62" DLP

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#24
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

David, i agree. Thats why its going to the top of my NetFlix. If i had anything else to get this week, i might have jumped anyway. But i didnt, so i will see for myself. I had the same reserve with Dracula on Blu-ray. You guys know the thread. Is it to dark, or not. After a rent, and a re-watch of my SuperBit, i bought the Blu-ray, and love it. It may be dark in a few scenes, but it looks good. I think we got a variation of the theme here.
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#25
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
But, Patrick. That raises the age-old question here on the HTF...

Is it better to buy the release to encourage future Bronston release...or is it better to NOT buy the release to discourage the sub-par transfers?

Tough call. I will probably bite when I have it in my hands at a B&M.

It's the Weinsteins, so the only holdout would be for the HD version, which would be off the same 1080p transfer probably.

Tell The Weinstein Company to release Richard Williams' animated masterpiece The Thief and the Cobbler on DVD in Panavision widescreen and uncut! See and hear what you're missing from their Bitsy Award winner of Worst Standard Edition DVD of 2006 on YouTube!
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#26
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I'll definitely be buying it.
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#27
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
While the creation of a 65mm printing dupe would not be inexpensive, it would certainly be easy to do so for 70mm printing.
What if they just scanned the OCN at 4K, and corrected it all digitally?

Wouldn't that be cheaper than making a 70mm I.P. that will probably never be used to make film prints, and better quality, because it isn't down a generation from the negative?
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#28
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

"Fall of the Roman Empire" is a much better film than "El Cid," but I don't
want to get into this sort of debate in this thread. PM me if you want to
continue this chat.

Anyway, I can't answer your comment about the "El Cid" DVD looking better
than the "FOTRE" laserdisc since I can't see your HD set. However, on my
tube T.V. and my HDTV, "FOTRE" seems to be sharper, more colorful, and
lacks the film of dust or whatever that is on the "El Cid" transfer.

In any event, "El Cid" is a good film and people should buy this version of it.
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#29
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickDA
"Fall of the Roman Empire" is a much better film than "El Cid," but I don't
want to get into this sort of debate in this thread. PM me if you want to
continue this chat.

The first film has a great cast, but I won't say it's better than "El Cid". By a long shot, the latter's ending still gets my blood pumping today just like it did when I first viewed it as a boy back in the early 1960s.
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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#30
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Re: A few words about...™ El Cid

I agree, that ending, matched with Rozsa's superlative score, always gets me.

Fall of the Roman Empire, great cast, great to look at, fantastic sets, but one weak link, it's leading man. Stephen Boyd, so effectively evil as Messala is a dull, wooden Livius.
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