Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

People always assume that high end high priced audio will be superior in every aspect to your standard receiver, this can be true when dealing with analog 2CH setups but in home theater it is not. High end companies either do a direct rebadged and sell it for a huge profit or they design their own but as you will see there is nothing high end about it.

Lexicon MC-12.





Here we see the Digital I/O Board "top" and Analog I/O Board "bottom" obviously they are in no way superior to how a receiver is built/designed. Obviously there will be no sonic improvements using a DSP/DAC since the high end does not use anything special or better then what is used in today's receivers so the difference would be in the analog section of the product. As you can see there is nothing superior about the analog section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12.

Exclusive Lexicon MC-12 and MC-12 Balanced Image Gallery [SMR]

Here is where I found the pictures.

Halcro SSP100/200.

The halcro uses the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform.

Halcro SSP100 rebadged parasound? - AVS Forum

AV Talk: AV Amps, Receivers & Processors => Halcro SSP-100 Surround Processor Review

In these threads we found out that they do infact use the titan platform.





As you can see by the back layout the halcro "top" and parasound "bottom" have the same layout and most of it is exactly the same. The halcro also uses the following DSP/DAC, Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56367 Audio DAC: ASAHI KASEI AK4395 The HDMI also has an Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56371.

Mcintosh MX135/136.



The DSP system Mac uses.

Momentum Data Systems - DAE-5 Digital Audio Engine



The analog section for one channel.



This shows the power supply section of the mac, the two things I did like about the mac is the power section and the analog section when compaired to the lexicon.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

If someone can explain why these high end processors will sound better I am all ears.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

In different designs, different components can wind up as the "bottleneck", and it shouldn't be surprising that a lesser quality component may pop up in a superior design. Also, just because one manufacturer uses poor components or, worse yet, rebadges gear, it doesn't mean all high-end pre-amps are junk. It would be reasonable to question the benefits of ultra-high-end gear over less expensive but well designed stuff, but it is not "obvious" that all high-end gear is overpriced crap. You're making broad generalizations based on uninformed speculation.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Obviously.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Ok then which high end company does not have huge markups?

http://www.lexicon.com/image_library/RV5_rear_lo.jpg
harman/kardon

The lexicon receiver is a direct rebadge of the HK.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

First of all, HK owns Lexicon. So they're the same company.

Second, it's not at all clear how you've determined, solely from those two images, that the Lexicon is a "direct rebadge" of the HK. Yes, the features appear to be the same, but that doesn't mean the units are identical.

Third, the list prices of the two units are relatively close. The Lex lists at app. $4k and the HK at app. $3.5k. The real difference is that the HK is widely available from dealers that discount.

I have my issues with Lexicon and the current state of their product line, but so far you haven't come up with anything that justifies the provocative title. Yes, you pay for the name. You also pay for a level of quality that the name stands for. On that score, I'll trust my 12 years' experience owning Lexicon processors against a few images you lifted from some websites. (But if you have something more substantive, I'm all ears.)

M.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

I know that which is why it is an obvious rebadge.


Come on the outputs are 99% the same.


And? All the more it is a rebadge.


And I will still go around and prove that the high end (lexicon) does not offer anything that has a sonic improvment over a receiver.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

And how will you do that? By listening? By reverse engineering? By testing in a lab?

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

What you've offered isn't "proof". It's opinion -- and not even well-informed opinion, as it doesn't appear that you've bothered to audition the equipment in question.

M.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Lexicon RV-5 ? - SMR Audio/Video Forums

This is from a lexicon forum.

Speculation from the previous RV-5 thread seems correct. The specs appear to match the H/K AVR-745.

Lexicon RV-5 Receiver Specifications

http://www.harmankardon.com/specific...%20745&sType=C

These are lexicon owners talking about how the RV-5 is a rebadge of a HK.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

You didn't read the thread, did you?

They're talking about how the features are the same, then wondering about the differences. One of them even says: "I'm sure that the parts quality is upgraded between Lex RV-5 and the HK AVR745" (pg. 2, 2nd post from bottom). But in fact, no one in that thread has actually auditioned an RV-5.

Just like you.

Others can debate with you if they wish, but I'm done. There are genuine issues to be discussed here, and they're worthy of serious discussion. But you're not someone I can take seriously.

M.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

This is funny the specs are the same and you still stick up for the RV-5. So where would the sonic improvment come from?

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

What specs? Suppose I have my eye on a pair of magnepans. They're 4 ohm speakers, which rules out just about any receiver on the market. I could make do, but the people involved aren't willing to risk their collective noses.

So, I want a good solid pre-out. The Lexicon RV-5 has specs listed for it's pre-outs. The H/K 745 does not. Are they the same? Could be. It's a gamble, without solid numbers.

Plus, Harman Kardon really needs to fire its layout artist. The manual hurts my eyes.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

harman/kardon

That should fix it.


?? The amp section in the HK is the same as the lexicon and I never said anything about amps.


Ya people on a lexicon forum say they are the same but you still disagree?

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Two models from the same manufacturer use the same connector-panel and you think that's evidence of outright rebadging? It isn't. I would actually expect a competent manufacturer to standardize parts across their product line in order to save money and make less expensive products. I would actually expect a lot of internal similarities too, but the components and circuit design could still be very different.

That being said, Lexicon is no stranger to rebadging. They used to rebadge Bryston amps as their own. In that particular case, however, they were really rebadging a superior product as their own. (i.e. If you bought the Bryston, you got the same amp *and* a 20 year warranty.)

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

HK ALSO MAKES PROCESSORS AND POWER AMPS FOR JBL IDENTICAL TO LEXICON EXCEPT JBL IS BLACK LIKE YOU SAY IT'S JUST A REBADGE. A FEW YEARS AGO I BOUGHT A ATLANTIC TECHNOLOGY PROCESSOR MODEL P2000 FOR AROUND $1700.-- A FEW YEARS LATER I FOUND OUT IT WAS A REBADGE OF AN OUTLAW 950 FOR AROUND $850.00, THAT'S WHAT THEY CALL EASY MONEY....
I TOTALY AGREE WITH BOB, I ENJOYED IT AND IT WAS A GREAT PROCESSOR, I PAYED TO MUCH, BUT SO WHAT...

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

I personally like my Bryston pre/pro as it is basically an analog preamp with a processor. I haven't heard the current Lexicon but have always in general thought their products were designed well for home theater. I've listened to some of the older models and never been particularly impressed with the 2-channel sound compared to even entry level high end preamps. One has to remember that Harman Int'l have been going thru hard times (as are some other cos. in the audio business). They had a sale of the company fall through to basically a group of investment bankers. They probably get about 70% (give or take a little) of their business from car stereo and they are looking to leverage off technology they already have in home theater. I'm not technical enough to analyze just the photos, but does Lexicon give a better warranty than HK?

Sony has been known to do that with the ES series. Sometimes there are minor differences but you get a 5 yr. warranty vs. a 2 yr. warranty. Other cos. have done the same thing. In the days of LD, the McIntosh 7020 player was a rebadge of a Pioneer CLD-97 with a different (and nicer looking faceplate) and an AC-3 output for a lot more money. Why pick on Lexicon? Sometimes with a higher end line they may allow trade-in allowances on newer models. Sometimes, you pay for better construction too, not just better sound. An example would be a Linn CD12 when it was made. The player listed for $20k. Linn has a sister co. that is one of the few cos. that can do military spec things. The metal was machined to military tolerances to minimize vibrations. It probably could have been sold for a bit over half with normal manuf. processes. Many moons ago Grado used to make a $15 phono cartridge and a $45 phono cartridge. They were identical. The $45 was a hand-picked $15. It's not unique to the audio industry. One can buy a Toyota or a Lexus built on the same platform. Yes the Lexus may have a few better features and such features may or may not be worth more to some customers. The Camry and ES300 used to be fairly similar with a more more horsepower in the Lexus and a nicer interior. Some may think it's a waste and others may not. I prefer more choices vs. less. I'm not a huge fan of Harman Int'l (I've owned Proceed stuff in the past) but I don't see a need to pick on them. I see nothing wrong with Lexicon for home theater.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

I remember reading on Outlaws web site a while back that when they (or anyone) designs a product and takes it overseas to a manufacturer, they (Outlaw) get exclusive rights to the "platform" that it's made on for a certain period of time. After that, the manufacturer has the right to offer it to anyone to help cover the tooling and startup costs. Re-badging has been going on for years, in all walks of life. The Mazda Tribute is a re-badged Ford Escape. The Honda Passport? An Isuzu Rodeo. If someone wants to pay more for a name, that's alright with me. It helps keep the price down on the other stuff for the rest of us.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Years ago, when Pioneer released its VSX-1014 receiver, people were comparing it the better looking, and more expensive Pioneer Elite VSX52. And it became sort of a darling of the forum.

But, as time went on, reports of broken receivers poured in. So a better warranty may be worth something.. .

The lexicon reciever was released with a MSRP of $500 over the "equivalent" H/K 745. Now, the H/K's price has collapsed, and the Lexicon looks a bit obsolete. Ah well. Receivers do reach obsolescence far faster than amplifiers.

Lexicon does offer a trade in program, and some of its products are upgradable.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Bottom line, no one can hear the difference. If you think you can research placebo effect. Your room makes WAY more of a difference in what you hear than what name your pre/pro bears. I will NEVER spend the money again on an expensive pre/pro, todays THX certified recievers (regardless of brand) are increadable.

As far as music listening is concerned I prefer the distortion caused warm sound of vacuum tubes.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Your top lines are missing. Is there a problem with the forum?

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

On a lexicon forum the users agreed that it was a rebadge, did you not read that?


Who knew a person would be willing to pay insane prices for warranty?


I agree, a lot of it does come down to the placebo effect and what people think they can hear based on looks/name.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

Not really. Meridian and to certain extent, Lexicon made their names on the strength of their room correction software.

Re: Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

So what if Lexicon "rebadges" an H/K unit? If the list prices are close, that would seem to indicate that the content is similar, so then what's your beef? You're paying more or less the same thing *for* the same thing, no matter whose name is on the front panel.