Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

And Toshiba hasn't been doing virtually the same thing? Please.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

FWIW, it looks like Toshiba just might have leaked their Super Bowl commercial a bit early. To view it, go to THIS SITE and click on the "Watch The Commerical" link in the lower right corner.

Some (in another forum) have speculated that this couldn't possibly be THE actual Super Bowl commercial because companies usually keep them secret until game day. But I'm betting that this is, indeed, the actual commercial based on the football theme.

I think it's a good spot, aimed squarely at "joe six pack" and his new high def TV.

Mark

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Yeah, I agree. That was a pretty good spot. If it is the Super Bowl ad though, I expect it would have more of a short-term effect than long-term. Not exactly one of the more memorable ad campaigns associated with the Super Bowl.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I have seen that commercial before, on HDNET or MOJO or one of those HD stations - unless they are recycling I doubt this is their new Superbowl commercial.

Of course - they could be recycling (as we all should)

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

It wouldn't be the first time. Not all Super Bowl commercials in recent years have been minty fresh.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I found the wording in the commercial odd and almost purposefully misleading. It sounds like the announcer is saying "With up to 6 times the detail of DVD even your current DVD collection looks great!" As if it's going to make all your existing DVD's into HD-DVD.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I have not seen the commercial myself, but if it conveys what you say, then there is really nothing odd about it. It would be totally in line with Toshiba's new strategy of promote upscaled DVDs as being as good as HD. Seemingly, they would much rather see HDM fail than concede the 'home video' market, to Blu-Ray.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Yes, you got it. Sony is the blame here. Why can´t they just go away?


"Giving away" BD-players? I don´t fully understand? I mean Toshiba has been selling their players for 100-150$ and these "cheap players" have been their strategy nr.1 so far in the "format war". But hey, what do I know..


I don´t want to sound rude here Francis (since this is nothing personal obviously), but perhaps you should ask yourself a simple question: Do people really care if *you* won´t be supporting Blu-ray? I mean in the end, what does it matter? It would matter if 100 000 people would said that, perhaps, but one person here and the other one there.. I doubt it.

I have said this before, but IF (I mean: IF at this point) Blu-ray wins, most of the HD DVD fans will follow eventually, since they love films first and the formats second (as it should be for all of us). Only a small group of hardcore HD DVD-fans (OR Blu-ray fans, if HD DVD wins..) will abandon "HD" altogether (and after a year or so, they´ll probably change their minds).

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Come on, Jari!
Did you read some of the things said about Toshiba in this thread? And repeatedly?

Francis didn't say "Sony is to blame", he just added those bits to other similar "accusations" in his post.

He said the opposite of what you're accusing him of: he more or less wrote "oh, so only one party is to blame? Why don't you take the other side into account?".
I may not agree with everything he said, but it's unfair to isolate parts of someone's (anyone's!) text and then fight it as if it were an isolate remark indeed, reversing the underlying meaning in the process.


Yes, that's unnecessarily rude. Everyone's opinions, yours included, are equally important in these conversations here.


Cees

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Yup, Sony, Toshiba, Warner and Paramount are evil companies and want to do great harm to their industry. We get you guys, loud and clear with that repetitious message.



Crawdaddy

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Yes I did read most of it, but this "Sony is the blame" is just a very naive way to seek answers to this format war. It would be equally naive to "blame" Universal or Toshiba, etc. Generally speaking, Francis just was the latest person to mention it (I never said that he was the only one or something like that).


Fair enough. Perhaps I need to read his post(s) again.




I NEVER said that people can´t express their opinions etc here. And I clearly said that it wasn´t personal.

My point again: Stating that "if the format of my choice won´t win, I won´t be buying that other format" just isn´t the very smart thing to say, since we ALL should love films more than formats. The other format WILL fade away. Eventually. At its best, the other (who knows, perhaps even both) will live on in a very niche way.

But of course, people have the full right to say that (I won´t buy that "other" format, IF etc etc) and I didn´t say that they don´t have those rights or "freedom of speech".

We most/all (including me!) are calling ourselves a "film lovers" and all that, right? So perhaps we should start seeing beyond these goddamn formats.

So, one person saying that "he don´t buy this other format, if it wins" means very little. Majority still sees beyond these formats. And I´m glad for that. Me? I love films. And I´ll buy them in HD, regardless of the format. If it comes to that, in HD DVD, in Blu-ray - or in both. Also in SD DVD.

What *I* believe means very little either, though, since I tend to wish the best for the "masses" in the long run. *They* need that "one format" and I hope that the studios will deliver that. Sooner or later.

But, my apologies to Francis. I didn´t want to be rude, honestly.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Jari,

OK, if that's how you meant it: no problem.

But the way you wrote "but perhaps you should ask yourself a simple question: Do people really care if *you* won´t be supporting Blu-ray?" looked like you were singling out Francis in order to have that argument with him. It would have been clearer from the start, IMO, if you had written "... Do people really care if any of us won´t be supporting ...?". (You also wouldn't have had to add the "I don´t want to sound rude here Francis" remark then. )


BTW, the "format wars" has never been a fight to get consumers to one side or another. It was a war (between manufacturers) about winning studios over.
The consumers have only been used, some were even tricked to thinking they needed to choose sides!


Cees

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Well Francis, I don't think you understand my position. First of all, it had nothing to do with Sony or Toshiba or any payoffs from those companies. It didn't really even have anything to do with Microsoft (if there is a corporate villain in this story, it's Microsoft more than either Toshiba or Sony). It was anger with a decision made by a studio - Paramount. Their move from format neutral to hd-dvd only was one that, in my estimation, only extended the format war. And while your entitled to call those of us who want one format stupid, I disagree. The difference with the recent move by Warner, is that it makes the end of the format war more likely, which I view as a good thing.

If Paramount had brought Warner and others with them and had all gone hd-dvd back then, that too would have helped end the war, and I'd be happily hd-dvd right now. But what Paramount did (no matter why they did it, or who did or didn't pay them to do it), just made the war worse, and pushed me into the blu-ray camp. Not any love or hate towards Sony or Toshiba.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Cees, that's the truest thing I've read in any war-talk thread here. At the end of the day, it always comes back to money. This has all been about consumer electronics firms needing a new piece of equipment to sell instead of DVD players, once DVD player prices dropped to the point where they could be bought in supermarkets for less than the price of the weekly food shopping.

There were always going to be multiple hi-def formats conceived, just as there were pre-release with DVD, the only difference now is that the proponent of one of those formats started buying film studios and back catalogue before the formats were finalised, giving it the major advantage of being able to release titles solely on its own format. At that point, it was inevitable that those companies that would make royalty money from the other format(s) would try to 'buy up' studios as well, if not outright like Sony did then by commercial agreements.

No single manufacturer in this war - Sony or Toshiba - has done anything other than try to secure as much of the future market for themselves as they possibly can. They know that the hundreds of millions (or more) they spend now will be dwarfed by future royalties for the life cycle of the product they manufacture if it becomes mass market.

Only those in the know will be able to say, but it doesn't take a genius to work out that everyone involved with HD DVD will now be negotiating the best possible financial outcome they can. No company will be thinking along some of the 'emotional' lines suggested here, all they care about is the bottom line.


Very true, on both counts.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Yes, that was my point. I mean in the end (in this format war also), the dogs bark but the caravan moves on.

I personally just feel that the "masses" and most of us consumers deserve to have "one format". I also feel that we *need* that one format for HD to become "new DVD" eventually. So in some ways, I try to see beyond this war, even when I have both players and everything.

And, I´m also confident, that we´ll have that one format - perhaps in this year.


This is all true. They are probably negotiating at the very moment (at least the channels are open) and plenty is going on "in the shadows" ( ). These formats may be "emotional" for many of us, but they´re "business first" for the companies. To all of them.

Let´s say that in the near future we´ve just one HD-format. Question after that is simple: Are you in or out. Those who are "in" will move on. So does the industry. And all the companies. They probably hear some barking, but it slowly fades away. The caravan has moved on..

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

This thread is da bomb yo.

--
H

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

We deserved one format from the outset, but it didn't work out that way. The studios and CE companies have their own agendas and what's best for the consumer is rarely, if ever, at the top. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if all the major parties in this debacle lost their shirts. A lesson might be learned in that case. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. So, at some point in the not-too-distant future, we'll probably have another idiotic format war to discuss.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

You have some points there..

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Last time I checked you do have to pay something to get a hd-dvd player. I find it interesting that apparently they can't sell someone who is buying a 50 inch set a $300-400 blu-ray player and have to give it to them. Also I find it curious that is counted as a sale. Can you call something that you give away a sale? That is why I really think these weekly sales should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't believe in consumer confusion. If people are interested in a product they will find out about it. Having 3 gaming systems has not slowed down sales of video game consoles. Apparently there is no consumer confusion. But people and even corporations will delude themselves.

While I do love movies, I also love consumer choice. In VHS and beta, consumers chose. Vhs vs dvd people chose. In HD corporations are ramming their choice down our throats bought and paid for since Sony, Disney, Fox, and MGM started this. Fox even had the chuztpah to come back for another payoff.

I also see that what Toshiba is pushing is the Trojan Horse strategy. They are correctly pointing out that at the worst you have is an upconverting dvd player that plays some hd media. If you get enough of these in people's homes then these media companies have to notice. This is very clearly aimed at the average person that blu-ray has not reached.

Also if I were Toshiba, I would push promotions aimed at hd-dvds themselves. Hd-dvd has 2 big releases coming in the first quarter, American Gangster and Bee Movie. I would push these movies and push American Gangster as a hd/dvd combo. I would even consider offering in-store coupons to push hd-dvd sales.

And what we deserved was format neutrality by all the studios.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Nevermind.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I read your original comments and I'm sorry you feel that way, but there are more than a few people with too much emotional investment in either format to talk about the war in a logical manner without becoming overly passionate in how they converse with each other. It's a shame and though we had similar tone discussions beforehand with DVD vs. DIVX and DD vs. DTS, nothing has reached this level as of yet. It's actually quite sad that such a divide has opened up, but I blame the format zealots from both formats for it. They simply can't stop themselves from escalating the format rherotic because they need to have the last word in or can't allow some comment they disagree with or feel is inaccurate go unchallenged with their sense of the truth.

As consumers, we are just pawns in this format war among these large companies and business alliances, but some of us think we have to fight this format war like we're some kind of foot soldier for Sony or Toshiba so we constantly engage each other, day after day, arguing and fighting over the same issues.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Amen!!!!

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

It WORKED with DIVX Crawdaddy =)

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

You nailed it.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I agree that "consumer confusion" is somewhat of a red herring, but I also think comparing the gaming market directly w/ the home video market is somewhat of an apples-to-oranges comparison too. Afterall, there has never been an actual standard (or even de facto standard) for gaming format, and people are quite used to that. Also, gaming formats come and go rather quickly compared to home video (and music recording formats too). And then, the target audiences have traditionally been quite different between them as well.

But you're right that the masses probably have not cared much at all about HDM. And the CE companies and studios will have to actively market/promote HDM to them. But then again, the same thing was more or less true back in the early days of DVD. These companies had to actively market/promote DVD to the masses. DVD as a product did not simply sell itself as though the masses were demanding for it first. Problem is that w/ 2 conflicting HDM formats, it does make the necessary marketing/promotions difficult to do. And HDM probably will need lots more promoting/marketing work than DVD did due to various factors. Having 2 conflicting formats will only make it harder to sell to the masses. Of course, it's a big unknown whether even 1 unified HDM format will sell all that well w/ the masses. Only time will tell...


In those cases, there were apparently clear cut enough factors to sell the masses on the winning format. But that's not the case w/ BD vs HDD -- well, actually, even w/ VHS vs Beta, it came down to content availability (though I have no idea whether the content providers were paid to do so like w/ HDM). And since there are so much for HDM to overcome (including the extremely successful DVD market), having 2 conflicting, but virtually equal, formats will likely make matters worse, if the goal is for HDM to receive widespread adoption.


I disagree. What we deserved was one unified format right from the get-go. They should've worked it all out before pushing 2 conflicting formats onto the early adopters. Unfortunately, they rarely seem to go that route. Even w/ DVD, there was DIVX trying to start a format war of sorts.

While I agree w/ others that the format war has generated some good side effects, I think the war should've happened and been resolved before anything was launched to the public so that we would get one unified format w/ all the benefits of competition. Yeah, prices might not have come down as quickly w/out a post-launch format war, but then again, I think we're being a little naive if we think these CE companies, etc. won't try to recoop their losses from short term drastic price cuts, etc. if the cuts happen much faster than normal...

_Man_

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I agree 100%, but don't forget that studios also want to sell you (insert names of your ten favorite movies here) again since you already have all five versions they released on VHS, DVD, LD, etc.

bipole vs. dipole?

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Actually, this sentiment would not be far off base if it were uttered at the "dawn" of HDM.
In not reaching a unified format agreement because of greed and posturing, we now have this fractured mess to deal with.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

You really confuse me. I mean what is this "Blu-ray-players for free"-argument? You have to pay to get the HD DVD player, but you get Blu-ray-player "for free" and this is the reason why Blu-ray is doing so well in the "weekly sales"? And I thought that I´ve already heard almost every argument in this format wat.. This one is new.


These are probably good ideas and points if you´re supporting only HD DVD, but don´t you think that it´s a bit too late for all this?

consumer confusion? = I believe gaming has always been a different entity compared to films. IMO, that´s. Different set of markets and "rules". The "masses" need one format when it comes to films. VHS = DVD = ?. A/V geeks like us are probably a bit different issue.

consumer choice? = You just blame Blu-ray for everything and you only mention "Blu-ray studios" also. Can´t take that part of post even seriously. Sorry again..

Toshiba and "upscaling"? = Another marketing thing for Toshiba. It might work in some degree, but then again, maybe not. At least it won´t "win the war". PS3 could use the same thing ("great upscaling"). And yes, I have both PS3 and Toshiba and I have compared the upscaling myself.

New HD DVD-titles? = Well, what HD DVD now needs is new titles for sure. American gangster and Bee movie are good and "big titles", but the format needs more. Much more. And fast. Who knows..

All studios to go neutral? = It won´t happen, too late for that. "One format" from the start would´ve been the ideal choice from the start like Man-Fai already pointed out. We didn´t get it. The blame is with all the studios. Blaming e.g. only Blu-ray-camp is just "war talk", not realism. It´s impossible for us to know all the angles, talks, deals and "unmade deals" that went on in the dawn of "format war". We just don´t know everything.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I don't think we DESERVE anything other than the right to vote and the right to bare arms.

Major corporations do whats in the the best interest of their stock holders. 9 times out of 10 that is also in the best interests of their customers, but not always. There is nothing evil about this. They aren't out to get us. It's just business.

Doug

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

In the US, there was a few weeks of promotion where if you bought a 50" or larger flat screen HDTV set at "full price" from the major CE manufacturers who also make BD players (Sony, Samsung, Panasonic), you also get a free BD player with your purchase of the HDTV set. I saw the promotion first-hard, i.e., a 50" 1080p Panasonic plasma being sold at $2500 and it came with a Panasonic BD30 player for that $2500 spent on the plasma. That's all Francis was referring to in his post. This promotion is the reason why we saw a huge differential in BD/HD player sales for one week (something like 85% BD vs. 15% HD in player sales for the 3rd week of January).