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Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

#151
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1/29/08 at 6:47am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Dave,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
as I just realized I am dragging this response out, and I apologize for that.
No reason at all to apologize, I think. When people find a long post too difficult to read to the end, they will perfectly be able to choose not to, or else happily read on.

I used the word "exaggeration" in relation to your notions of Toshiba "pulling a scorched earth approach", "taking a dump on the industry" or "going to piss on the industry and on the consumer".
In this format competition, there are no saints or devils, I believe. Why would one of the party (Toshiba in this case) be expected to give up at the first serious setback they encounter? And why would it be an evil thing if they won't?

In the reverse situation, e.g. when Warner would have chosen the other side, we wouldn't have blamed Sony to go on, wouldn't we? In fact, when Paramount chose to go exclusive, I didn't see many comments asking Sony to stop now.

It's perfectly alright, IMO, for someone to believe and to wish a commercial party should stop competing, but it's a bit, well exaggerated, to immediately compare them to Atilla the Hun and a scavenger dog.


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#152
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1/29/08 at 6:59am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
I may have exaggerated slightly but to say that I am grossly exaggerating is kind of insulting. Again my problem is not with Toshiba products it is in the way Toshiba is pushing this format war. Its not a gross exaggeration saying that they only have two studios behind them. Because after May they will basically only have two major studios behind them. If Toshiba runs an ad during the Super Bowl not mentioning there lack of studio support. If they make it look like they have alot of support and Toshiba trying get people to buy into a format when there choices of titles is limited. That is borderline criminal in my book. Now is it a actual crime, no but I said it to get a point across and like I stated above I may have done a poor job at it. But you have to admit they are doing everything to prolong the war and by doing so they are not helping the industry, retailers or the consumer.
You throw around terms like "borderline criminal" and then get insulted when someone says you're grossly exaggerating? It's time for a reality check.

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#153
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1/29/08 at 7:20am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
In this format competition, there are no saints or devils, I believe. Why would one of the party (Toshiba in this case) be expected to give up at the first serious setback they encounter? And why would it be an evil thing if they won't?
Well, first of all, it's not the first serious setback they've encountered. Even if we discount Warner and Paramount going neutral in 2005, they were handily beaten in software sales, they've been on the losing side of hardware (both weekly and since inception) since the holidays began, and they've lost either exclusive or complete support from companies around the world.
Quote:
In the reverse situation, e.g. when Warner would have chosen the other side, we wouldn't have blamed Sony to go on, wouldn't we? In fact, when Paramount chose to go exclusive, I didn't see many comments asking Sony to stop now.
Ah, but the situations are vastly different. At the time of the switch Paramount was (and as a matter of fact, still is) the least productive major studio for hi-def titles, accounting for around 10% of the titles, and doing only slightly better in market share. Fox, even with delays and cancellations lasting weeks or months, had been (and still is) releasing more titles. The Paramount decision still hasn't added that much in terms of titles, and could arguably be part of HD DVD's lower market share. In the end, Blu-ray still had 70%-75% or more of the major studios.

The Warner decision, on the other hand, was a whole different story. Had they gone HD DVD-exclusive, the pie would have stood at roughly 50-50. Given the fact that the BDA has multiple manufacturers (instead of just one) and a split pie, I would have certainly expected them to fight on. But that's not what happened. Warner going exclusive means that Blu-ray still has 70%-75%+ of Hollywood, but HD DVD has more like 20-25%. 3:1 is a far cry from 1:1. Even worse, they are one of the prolific hi-def studios, who's output exceeds Paramount by about 3:1 and rising. So instead of losing 30 titles out of 300 like Blu-ray (plus the pitiful releases and announcements since then), HD DVD is losing 100 titles out of 400, plus the most extensive release slate currently out there.
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#154
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1/29/08 at 7:30am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
You............

(unrelated question)

Is there any reason why your posts are always in "BOLD", Michael? Some kind of mod-thingy?

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#155
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1/29/08 at 7:37am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

On my computer Michael's posts aren't bold, Jari. Must be a "your-PC thingy"!


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#156
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1/29/08 at 7:38am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
(unrelated question)

Is there any reason why your posts are always in "BOLD", Michael? Some kind of mod-thingy?
They aren't on my screen. It might be something in how your browser interprets my default font. I get that from time to time in some users' posts when I'm not at my own computer.

EDIT: Since it seems to be affecting a number of people, I'll revert to system defaults until I can figure out what's happening.

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#157
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1/29/08 at 7:41am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Ah, but the situations are vastly different.
Of course. No doubt. Totally.
But even then it still isn't reason enough to compare Toshiba to Atilla the Hun. Or Sony or Samsung.
Which was my point.

And note that all those situations arise from causes outside Toshiba's direct control.


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#158
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1/29/08 at 7:41am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Michael's font is large and bold for me as well (I'm using Firefox).
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#159
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1/29/08 at 7:42am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

It's bold on my machine too, stock IE.

Anyway, Toshiba have been ratcheting up the HD DVD radio ads in my area this week, and they don't mention ANY studio support I don't think. I'm curious to see if the Superbowl ad has any effect, but I personally think it's a huge waste of cash.

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#160
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1/29/08 at 8:02am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

They weren't bold on mine. (IE 7) But they were just a little larger than "normal" and a different font. (Times New Roman, I think)
My DVDs

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#161
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1/29/08 at 8:07am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Posten
I'm curious to see if the Superbowl ad has any effect, but I personally think it's a huge waste of cash.
Probably. But they almost have to do it. Heck, they may literally have to do it - wasn't advertising allegedly a big part of their exclusivity agreement with Paramount?

It crosses my mind that this sort of determination to come out on top would be seen as a virtue, even if it were against one's own personal interests, in an individual. It's silly to treat corporations the same way, except legally, but a part of my brain does stubbornly insist on looking at it from that perspective.

(Granted, it's probably the same part that waits patiently for the HD-A1 to start up but seethes at every "please wait" graphic from the BD-P1000)
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#162
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1/29/08 at 9:23am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Quote:
You throw around terms like "borderline criminal" and then get insulted when someone says you're grossly exaggerating? It's time for a reality check.

Ok Michael I may have been slightly insulted but I never got upset about it as you seem to be. I have a good sense of reality thank you very much. This was between myself and Cees who I have no problem with and have a good deal of respect for if you choose to beleive it or not. My opinion my have been strongly put but that was basically how I felt about where I see this war going and how Toshiba is protraying itself. If you honestly beleive that I really took that personal trust me I didn't.

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#163
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1/29/08 at 9:28am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Well, first of all, it's not the first serious setback they've encountered. Even if we discount Warner and Paramount going neutral in 2005, they were handily beaten in software sales, they've been on the losing side of hardware (both weekly and since inception) since the holidays began, and they've lost either exclusive or complete support from companies around the world.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm living on the same planet as some of these posters.

Last year Toshiba sold upwards of 500,000 HD-DVD players. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is more than the COMBINED sales of ALL Blu-ray SA players.

Is it so surprising than that Toshiba would continue to market their products into 2008?
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#164
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1/29/08 at 9:36am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

There is no doubt that Toshiba sold alot of players last year but many of the players that where bought durring black friday where returned as well. I am wondering how many people returned there HD-DVD players? I think that its a suprise when they only have 2 studios behind them, at least after May they will. Does anyone think it is strange that Toshiba has not gotten around to dealing with WB leaving. I am wondering what are they going to do other than try to sell alot of HD-DVD players? I honestly do not see much on the software side coming out this year, at least in the area of good strong titles that people will rush out and buy.

Has there been any sign that Universal or Paramount are going to release some really good titles this year?

I just want to comment on Universal saying HD-DVD is here to stay. At this rate it will not be around much longer so is Universal just trying to justify there stance or are they getting there statements from Toshiba?

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#165
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1/29/08 at 9:50am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
I honestly do not see much on the software side coming out this year, at least in the area of good strong titles that people will rush out and buy.
There Will Be Blood, Sweeney Todd, Cloverfield (yeah yeah yeah it dropped 68% this past weekend), Iron Man, Beowulf. And Star Trek (theatrical is skedded for Xmas day so technically this is a 2009 home vid release).
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#166
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1/29/08 at 9:53am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
Sometimes I wonder if I'm living on the same planet as some of these posters.
Indeed. If you're done snidely insulting me, perhaps you can come back to this one and do some research.
Quote:
Last year Toshiba sold upwards of 500,000 HD-DVD players. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is more than the COMBINED sales of ALL Blu-ray SA players.
Gladly! You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players. Keep in mind that that was data from the week before Christmas, which we now know was during the time that Blu-ray standalones were outselling HD DVD standalones. As Toshiba no doubt knew and rather sneakily omitted, the week following Blu-ray managed more than twice the standalone sales of Toshiba, and they outsold HD DVD 60:40 for the month of December, to the tune of 115k standalones. So far this month, they've been outsold more than 2:1. What's even more telling is that the Blu-ray companies are bringing in between 2x-3x the revenue for each player.
Quote:
Is it so surprising than that Toshiba would continue to market their products into 2008?
It's not surprising for a company desperate to petulantly destroy hi-def on discs just because they'd rather keep royalties on DVD rather than admit their format is dead to the retailers, the media, and most of the current adopters. And yes, Toshiba is being quite petulant and childish. The very same thing happened between Sony and Toshiba with DVD, although that was decided before it came to the market. Did Sony try and destroy DVD? Nope, they threw their support behind it with both hardware and software. They even spoke out against DIVX! So, really the only thing surprising to me here is that Toshiba can't even honorably admit any problems.
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#167
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1/29/08 at 10:09am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players.
Stipulating that this clearly doesn't include the PS3, that's still not far from "more than other manufacturers combined", and it's the sort of market share where digging in can at least be argued as making more sense for Toshiba than abandoning the market or just being one more BD-manufacturing company with 10% of the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
It's not surprising for a company desperate to petulantly destroy hi-def on discs just because they'd rather keep royalties on DVD rather than admit their format is dead to the retailers, the media, and most of the current adopters. And yes, Toshiba is being quite petulant and childish.
I'm trying to imagine a multinational corporation yelling and stamping its foot. Corporations, by and large, don't have human emotions, and trying to decipher their motives based upon them is not likely to get you far.
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#168
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1/29/08 at 10:11am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Gladly! You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players. Keep in mind that that was data from the week before Christmas, which we now know was during the time that Blu-ray standalones were outselling HD DVD standalones. As Toshiba no doubt knew and rather sneakily omitted, the week following Blu-ray managed more than twice the standalone sales of Toshiba, and they outsold HD DVD 60:40 for the month of December, to the tune of 115k standalones. So far this month, they've been outsold more than 2:1. What's even more telling is that the Blu-ray companies are bringing in between 2x-3x the revenue for each player.

Could you tell us where you got those numbers?

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#169
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1/29/08 at 10:12am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
[F
[/size][/font] [F do hope Toshiba is not overly misleading with there Super Bowl commercial. And I hope that it is not there intention to damage HDM as they slowly loose the format war. If HD-DVD was winning I would have no problem supporting them instead of Blu-ray. And I would most likely have more HD-DVD in my collection than Blu-ray if the situation was reversed. It is a little frustrating when the war should be over but it drags on and on with no end in site. We all know it will end , but when? And I honestly feel that Universal and Paramount are just as guilty for prolonging this war. I also feel that the consumer and the industry would be better off with one format. But I am going to end this here as I just realized I am dragging this response out, and I apologize for that.[/size][/font]
You know I've been thinking about this "war" thing and the preconceptions people have about WAR. Us older folk are used to "wars" in ALL its forms.
Of course shooting wars are BAD!!! They may be good for the economy but hard on people. People get killed.
Now consumer wars AKA "price wars" are GOOD!!!
The only thing thats hurting is the manufacturer's bottom line....AKA "profits." Manufacturers do NOT like price wars for reasons which should be obvious.
Folks...what we have here is the consumer kind of "war" where hardware and software CE companies are vying for our business and cutting prices to the bone. Consumers should not "tire' of these type of "wars." In fact, the opposite is true...these price wars should be embraced and taken advantage of. Who, here, has not in one form or another benefited from BOGO sales or reduced hardware prices during this price war. So....don't be so quick to root for its end. Be careful of what you wish for...you just might get it.
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#170
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1/29/08 at 10:16am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
There Will Be Blood, Sweeney Todd, Cloverfield (yeah yeah yeah it dropped 68% this past weekend), Iron Man, Beowulf. And Star Trek (theatrical is skedded for Xmas day so technically this is a 2009 home vid release).


Hey Paul,

The trailer for Cloverfield looked good and I might be willing to roll the dice on that title. Now is Star Trek the first motion picture or Star Trek the series?

Quote:
Now consumer wars AKA "price wars" are GOOD!!!


Oh I agree I have nothing against price coming down.

Quote:
Who, here, has not in one form or another benefited from BOGO sales or reduced hardware prices during this price war.

I also love BOGO sales as I have gotten great deals and more movies because of them.

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#171
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1/29/08 at 10:23am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Now is Star Trek the first motion picture or Star Trek the series?
The ST movie that Paul's referring to is the new one coming to theaters in December 2008.
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#172
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1/29/08 at 10:30am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Indeed. If you're done snidely insulting me, perhaps you can come back to this one and do some research.
Gladly! You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players. Keep in mind that that was data from the week before Christmas, which we now know was during the time that Blu-ray standalones were outselling HD DVD standalones. As Toshiba no doubt knew and rather sneakily omitted, the week following Blu-ray managed more than twice the standalone sales of Toshiba, and they outsold HD DVD 60:40 for the month of December, to the tune of 115k standalones. So far this month, they've been outsold more than 2:1. What's even more telling is that the Blu-ray companies are bringing in between 2x-3x the revenue for each player.
It's not surprising for a company desperate to petulantly destroy hi-def on discs just because they'd rather keep royalties on DVD rather than admit their format is dead to the retailers, the media, and most of the current adopters. And yes, Toshiba is being quite petulant and childish. The very same thing happened between Sony and Toshiba with DVD, although that was decided before it came to the market. Did Sony try and destroy DVD? Nope, they threw their support behind it with both hardware and software. They even spoke out against DIVX! So, really the only thing surprising to me here is that Toshiba can't even honorably admit any problems.
Actually, I was right....we do live in different worlds.
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#173
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1/29/08 at 10:37am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moritz
Ok Michael I may have been slightly insulted but I never got upset about it as you seem to be.
I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that I'm upset. As between us, I'm not the one who's filled every thread where HDM "war talk" is permitted (and some where it's not) with lengthy posts, angry emoticons and hyperbole like "borderline criminal". People can draw their own conclusions.

Quote:
This was between myself and Cees
You're not having a private conversation; you're posting in an open forum. And you've been saying the same thing for weeks to anyone and everyone who will listen. Sorry, but you don't get to declare one particular post "private" when it suits you.

Quote:
If you honestly beleive that I really took that personal trust me I didn't.
I don't care whether you took it personally or not (although usually when someone says they're "insulted", it means they've taken something personally). All anyone's done is respond to some very aggressive positions you've advanced. If you can't stand the heat, etc.

M.
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#174
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1/29/08 at 10:43am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by loganhunter2002
Could you tell us where you got those numbers?
A variety of sources:

Toshiba press conference
BDA press conference
Nielsen/Videoscan
NPD
Warner announcement
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigluigi
Actually, I was right....we do live in different worlds.
Well, feel free to rejoin the real one whenever...
"Would I rather be feared or loved? Um...easy, both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me."
--Michael Scott, The Office

"When I get sad I just stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story."
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#175
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1/29/08 at 10:52am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
A variety of sources:

Toshiba press conference
BDA press conference
Nielsen/Videoscan
NPD
Warner announcement

Well, feel free to rejoin the real one whenever...

Links? I don't remember any of them mentioning any numbers of hardware sales.

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#176
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1/29/08 at 11:19am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Gladly! You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players.
So, even if we devotely and fully accept Jesse's numbers (and why not?), Louis "bigluigi" Primeau was basically right (even if he would be only slightly wrong on a detail and Toshiba's 49% happened to be just less than the 49% representing the combined BD player sales): Toshiba has every reason, commercially-wise, to want to continue "their" format. No need to drag in the morally inferior and alleged motives some people like to think up!


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#177
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1/29/08 at 11:39am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
So, even if we devotely and fully accept Jesse's numbers (and why not?), Louis "bigluigi" Primeau was basically right (even if he would be only slightly wrong on a detail and Toshiba's 49% happened to be just less than the 49% representing the combined BD player sales): Toshiba has every reason, commercially-wise, to want to continue "their" format.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow that logic, because that comes from an assumption that those numbers exist in a vacuum, which they don't. In fact, there are a lot of "ifs" that would have to be true for Toshiba to logically make a decision rather than conduct business out of spite. If all things were equal in studio support, if software and hardware sales were roughly equal, if Toshiba was pulling in equal revenue, if both sides had equal retailer support, if both sides had equal manufacturer support, if player price drops had actually worked, if combos had actually been cheaper to make, if disc production really had been "as easy as DVD", if Europe and Japan had been better for business, and so on and so on...

But pretty much none of that is true, and even Toshiba VPs are starting to admit that they're losing money on HD DVD.
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#178
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1/29/08 at 11:52am
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
On players, according to the article. And without the amount of the loss, in comparison to the business plan, it's hard to know what that really means, especially since the major losses for the quarter are in the chip business.

M.
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#179
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1/29/08 at 12:38pm
  • Joined: September 2000
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Indeed. If you're done snidely insulting me, perhaps you can come back to this one and do some research.
Gladly! You're wrong. Toshiba themselves stated that they accounted for ~49% of sales, Blu-ray standalones accounted for another ~49%, with 2% in dual players. Keep in mind that that was data from the week before Christmas, which we now know was during the time that Blu-ray standalones were outselling HD DVD standalones. As Toshiba no doubt knew and rather sneakily omitted, the week following Blu-ray managed more than twice the standalone sales of Toshiba, and they outsold HD DVD 60:40 for the month of December, to the tune of 115k standalones. So far this month, they've been outsold more than 2:1. What's even more telling is that the Blu-ray companies are bringing in between 2x-3x the revenue for each player.

I don't now either how you arrived at this figures, and I’m not planning to dig through all the sources you listed either, since you are the one making this assertion you should provide in this thread the data used to reach your results, until then, your conclusions are suspect at best.



"The just-issued press release recaps a "breakthrough year" for HD DVD, reporting almost one million dedicated HD DVD players sold through to consumers, and software sales for the format that grew at nearly twice the rate of Blu-ray during the five week holiday selling period."

HD DVD Rallies Consumer Audience



In the “real world” those 129.00 priced HD-DVD are flying off the shelves, in my local Costco a week ago they had three pallets full, yesterday all this players were gone except for a few, they moved the un-sold 379.00 Blu rays to the same spot.

Pretty soon is going to be very difficult for any "reasonable" movie Studio to ignore this growing potential market, and if the Studios continue to plot to kill HD-DVD with out merit --- like they are attempting now --, rest assure this fiasco is going to land them in a US court room.

You just don't sand bag a million plus American house holds and expect to escape without court (possibly US justice department) ordered punitive damage.

According to my personal observations very few "average consumers" are interested in forking out 400.00 dollars for a Blu player, (not even me) and the majority of adults won't buy a PS3 for an HT room (or main TV) to watch movies, they rather not deal with teenagers (in house or as guests) high jacking their Flat screen to play "games" while they waste away their precious and limited leisure hours waiting by the sofa.
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#180
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1/29/08 at 12:53pm
  • Joined: May 2007
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Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
EDIT: Since it seems to be affecting a number of people, I'll revert to system defaults until I can figure out what's happening.

M.

Strange. My PC at work (sadly, I have to use PC from time to time there.. ) has your posts in BOLD, but in my Mac at home they´re just fine.. Go figure.

Rewind - DVDcompare/Site Administrator
*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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