Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

My Toshiba 4800 is getting long in the tooth. I need a new DVD player that can also play DVD Audio as I have quite a stack of titles. Anything looking good out there? Anything that does the above and also High Definition DVD's? But what about price? Is this strictly for millionaires?

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

There's nothing that plays DVD-A and HD-DVD/BR. The Oppo 980 is a great universal player, handles DVD-A, SACD, and almost everything else short of HD.

OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like it might do nicely. Any idea on a price?

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Sorry didn't see the link. I've got it now. Thanks.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

I had a 971 a few years ago which a friend is now using as a region-free DVD player, and I'm using a 970 now for DVD-A and SACD. I wouldn't hesitate to buying anything from Oppo.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

I'm also using the 970 for DVD-A/SACD. Very nice for the price.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

If you're OK with buying used, many top of the line models from a few years ago can be had for a song. I just snagged a Denon 2900 to use as a dedicated SACD/DVD-A machine. If you are patient, one can be had for not much more than the cost of an Oppo 980.

-Dave

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Several Denon models fit the bill, also providing SACD playback. I picked up the Denon DVD 757 precisely because I wanted both DVD-A and SACD. Has good audio output options - HDMI, 5.1 analog putting out fine internal decoding for SACD, as well as both optical and coax digital out.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

I have a bunch of players for my SACD/DVD-A collection, I thought with such so little software coming out, there wouldn't be any more players being made but there have been quite a few the last couple of years. If you don't mind refurbished, eCost has a few Denon models. The DVD-1930CI is $135, as is the DVD-757 which is the same player to the best of my knowledge, just a different model number. The older DVD-1920 is available for $97, I have it and like it really well. I also own the Opp DV-980H and think it is better than the DVD-1920, but I am happy with both. If you want to spend more, there are a lot more options.

Chris

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

If you can find one, just FYI, the Panasonic BD-10 plays DVD-A AND Blu-ray.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Doug, you don't list your receiver/prepro, but if has HDMI audio capabilities, I'd look for a universal that passes hi-res audi via MPCM. I just installed a new Onkyo 805 last night. It was late then I finished the wiring, so I only did some real basic calibration and configuration. However, I was really curious to see if the 805 would process HDMI audio without an HDMI monitor. Popped in Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" DVD-A...now I get it! I'd been using the Oppo 970's analog outs (including BM and delay processing) for DVD-A and thought it sounded pretty good. Maybe it's just the power of suggestion or fatigue, but even low volume listening with the 805 doing the BM/delay processing on the MPCM stream seemed vastly superior to memory of the 970's analog processing. Currently, I only own two DVD-A discs, but after that brief spin last night, I plan to order a good handful this week. :-)

-Brent

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

This is one of the features that I've been researching lately, receivers that accept DVD-A/SACD thru HDMI. Even after reading the manuals it's unclear whether some brands products can do this or not with either dvd players or receivers. It's nice to know at least some Onkyo receivers do, but I think their players (namely the 504) don't.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

The Onkyo's don't decode DVD-A/SACD directly. I'm not aware that any receiver does. Even if they did, I'm also not aware of any player that passes DVD-A/SACD as a bitstream. Notice I said "I'd look for a universal that passes hi-res audi via MPCM". That means, the player must first decode DVD-A/SACD to a multichannel PCM signal. While optical/coax digitial don't, HDMI has enough bandwidth to carry a 5.1/7.1 PCM signal. In turn, any receiver capable of handling HDMI audio can then apply full post processing to the MPCM data. Maybe all universals with an HDMI output are capable of this, but since universal machines appeared before HDMI, I would expect some may only pass video via their HDMI connection.

-Brent

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

DVD-A is always passed as LPCM over HDMI. Some receivers, like the Yamaha 661 and higher-end Onkyos, can accept a DSD bitstream for SACD. The Oppo 980 can send DSD as a bitstream from SACD, not many can.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

I stand corrected on the 805. It does have a decoding mode for DSD...since the menu didn't explicitly say SACD and not actually owning any SACDs, I didn't realize what that decoding option was for. I haven't checked their manuals, but I would assume the 605 and above models all have DSD decoding.

-Brent

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Thanks Brent and Jack for trying to clarify things for me. What I'm looking for is something simular to i-Link which seems to be fading in favor of HDMI. I'm sure I worded things wrong but I was aware receivers don't decode hi-res but from what I gather, not all receivers with HDMI 1.3 will accept both dvd-a and sacd from a player that will send it thru hdmi, such as the OPPO 980 (and the 970?). I guess what I'm looking to do is what you did with the 805 the other night. Obviously I have much to learn on this. This is where much of my confusion comes in. Even if they do accept bitstream over hdmi, they often don't mention it (or at least not clearly enough to me) in their manuals. And apologies if I've hi-jacked this thread a bit. Hopefully it's been a little help to others as well.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

I'm not positive but I think a receiver would apply b.m./distance compensation/etc with an undecoded OR decoded signal. Why wouldn't it?

Also: Panasonic, the company who designed the hardware for the dvd-audio format, still makes a couple players (wow, just 2 now, a bit different from dvd-audio's "heyday" back in 2003 or so ). Supposedly the video circuitry isn't super-awesome on the first one, but the OP never mentioned that as a priority.

DVD-F87 $130. 5-disc changer with HDCD decoder & DPLII. I've seen this at Circuit, and it doesn't look cheap like its price would suggest and it also has some subtle features that are almost non-existant on the majority of players now: a fluorescent display with useful info like track numbers, time etc using *large* digits (pulling up an OSD for everything quickly gets to be tiresome); a number pad - really rare! - for selecting individual tracks on CDs; and a "CD play" mode which deletes certain operations making it function more smoothly with CDs; and individual LEDs to indicate which disc is playing. These may seem like who-gives-a-crap features but little things like that make a piece of gear easier/more fun to use i.e. good ergonomics.

DVD-S97S $300. Single disc with upconvertor, HDCD decoder and DPLII.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

All you need for SACD/DVD-A is at least an HDMI 1.1 receiver that'll accept LPCM. The Oppos will send either format as LPCM, you don't need DSD onboard a receiver.

Can be a little tough to figure out. Yamaha typically has a page in the manual that spells out exactly what it'll accept. Onkyo is usually pretty good, too. This is from the RX-V663 manual, reads better viewed full size:

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Last year I wanted to replace my venerable Technics DVD-A10 (which moved to my office where it functions as a nice CD/DVD player) with something which would handle DVD-Rs made from camcorder on my computer and do better with rental discs (the A10 doesn't like scratches). I got the DVD-F87, largely because I didn't want to reprogram my remote control for a new brand player. I also do not have DPLII on my old Integra DTR-7 receiver and wanted that upgrade for CD and Stereo/DPL DVD.

I highly recommend it, a very good machine. The video quality using component 480i into my X1 is just fine as far as I'm concerned. DVD-Audio and other multichannel formats through the analog output sound great to my ears, though admittadly my ears are far from "golden". Features are nice, ergonomics are good for a changer. I've been very happy with this player and would recommend it if you don't mind a changer. Now I have an ATSC tuner equipped DVD Recorder in my family room, the DVD-F87 plays the DVD-RAM discs from it with zero problems. It's a very deep unit (as with most changers) so make sure you have the space for it.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

As I've said, no player that I know of provides DVD-A (MLP) as a bitstream, therefore no processors decode it. Technically, some Meridian players/processors probably do it, if you've got the money...since they invented the format. SACD (DSD) *can* be a different story. A universal player with HDMI might only be HDMI v1.0, so it can't send MPCM via HDMI so you're left with the analog outputs. It might also not decode DVD-A/SACD to MPCM even if it is v1.1 or higher...the HDMI specs only say what the hardware *can" do, not what it *has* to do.

Considering the moving target that is HDMI, I wouldn't put 100% faith in a receiver or player properly handling MPCM just because it was v1.1 or higher. What's the quote "Trust. But, verify." Look at the recent crop of NAD receivers/prepro...HDMI v1.3, but no onboard decoding of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA and no plans to add it. A bigger deal, IMO, now that HD-DVD has been crushed by Sony's checkbook. The BluRay "standard" doesn't require in player decoders for the lossless formats...at least HD-DVD required TrueHD. To get prices down, the trend seems to be to remove lossless decoders from Blu players, presumably to save licensing and hardware costs. This obsoletes otherwise perfectly good 1.1/1.2 processors that could handle the MPCM stream these in player decoders provided. To add insult to injury, a lot of the current generation of players that claim TrueHD/DTS-HD bistream capability have been found to actually not...wait for the next firmware, then the next...lather, rinse, repeat.

And don't forget the potential "LFE bug" with MPCM...that's on the processor designer, not the HDMI spec.

A lot of universal players were released prior to HDMI, thus only allowing access to DVD-A/SACD via their analog outputs. A lot of these units don't apply any BM/delay processing to the analog outputs. Correspondingly, very few receivers/prepros provide any BM/delay processing on their multi-channel analog inputs...in order to do so, they'd need to perform an ADC step first, do the BM/delay processing in the digital domain, then another DAC step before sending the signal to the amplifiers. Whether you can hear the extra ADC/DAC cycle is debatable, but just knowing it's there is enough for some folks. Outlaw attempted to do full analog level BM for the multi-channel inputs on the 970/1070, but I've read the implementation introduced its own problems.

If the OP isn't currently running HDMI, I wanted to bring this option to his attention. If his investement in DVD-A/SACD is large enough, it would probably be worthwhile to upgrdade his receiver/prepro at the same time to get a complete implementation of BM/delay/EQ and treat DVD-A/SACD just like any other surround format. If he's bargain hunting, he might could even pick up Jack's RX-V661 since it looks like Jack is standing first in line for the soon to be released 663.

-Brent

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Heh. It'd be a long wait, I returned the 661 soon after I got it due to HDCP handshake issues with my AE900 projector. I'm still doing analog hi-rez at the moment from my Oppo 970, but my short time listening to that player via HDMI into the 661 convinced me to sell my Denon 2900. Fantastic hi-res audio receiver.
I'm kinda hoping the 663 plays better with my AE900, but it's probably the projector's fault.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Since you don't own any, maybe you should consider getting Dark Side of the Moon for your very first SACD.

I've been contemplating getting the Onkyo 805 as well. How's the space heating working for you so far? That's probably the main concern I'd have w/ it right now.

Hmmm... I wonder if my Denon 2910 can output DSD bitstream via HDMI. I never bothered to check when I bought it little more than a year ago.

_Man_

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

According to the specs, it doesn't appear the 2910 can pass SACD in any form (native DSD or converted to PCM) over HDMI. It can send DVD-A via HDMI, though.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Sorry, Jack...didn't realize you returned the 661. I remember you being fairly vocal about using it as a prepro about the same time a friend of mine upgraded to one. At the time, I couldn't quite pry my credit card out to order one myself even though I encouraged others to do so.

Man-Fai, the 805 does get warm, but it's actually the processor chip section, not the amplifiers. Being the only HDMI receiver I've ever seen in person, I can't say if it's any hotter than others. Even the 10 year old S-N AVP-9080 it replaced had a smaller in area, but still rather hot spot on one of its board and it had no video processing. I'm running the 805 as a prepro only and according to the internal probe, it stabilized at 54C/129F after running for 4-5 hours straight...internal fans stayed off. If you've ever looked at running temps of CPUs/GPUs over the past few years, that's a fairly normal range. I think some of the Athlon cpus are rated as high as 95C safely and some Nvidia GPUs are in the neighborhood or even higher. IOW, I think Onkyo is being sincere when they say the temps we're seeing are normal. I'll probably still add a quiet fan just to encourage a bit of air movement, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. One would assume Onkyo stress tested these things, including accelerated aging at "normal" operating temperatures before releasing them.

Not a big Pink Floyd fan, so I'll have to pass, thanks anyway. Based on a DVD sampler, I'm going to pick up some "Big Phat Band" titles on DVD-A this week.

-Brent

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Yeah, I did buy one and loved it but couldn't work around the HDCP thing with the pj. Others seem not to have the issue, so I think it may be the AE900.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Thanks Brent for all that info.
I guess I lost track of my own thinking and was thinking of just the outputs of HD-DVD & Blu-Ray players when playing HD movie discs.

But there are hi-res standard definition dvd players that send out UNdecoded dvd-audio data streams....right? Then any receiver - that is, a receiver with HDMI connections that does more than just act as an HDMI switching station* - with regular ol' PCM DACs could do whatever it needed to do (b.m. etc) to the signal.

What you said made me curious about Panasonic's dvd-audio players & their own receivers with HDMI. I found this in the manual for the S-97 but am not exactly sure what it means:


This is from the manual for the XR-57S receiver: So....maybe the S97 which is Version1.1 will send a dvd-audio's hi-res data stream via HDMI?

That sucks.

Another in a string of (dumb!) reasons hi-res surround flopped.


* off-topic note: IMO a receiver that can process audio from its HDMI inputs - ANY type of processing - really should include some type of logo indicating that capability. This stuff is getting very complicated, so why should consumers be forced to guess or read through some badly-written manual indicating the existance of such an important feature?!

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

"Decoding" and "D/A conversion" are not the same thing. "Decoding", as used here, is the process of unpacking the data from its compressed form (compressed using codecs like MLP,DD,DTS,TrueHD,etc.) into its native PCM form. When sent via HDMI in undecoded form (bitstream), it's still compressed. This compressed MLP bitstream is what can't be sent by DVD-Audio players over HDMI, it must be decoded first into LPCM. (I really shouldn't say "can't", as I'm not sure it's prohibited by the HDMI spec, but there are no players that do it.) The LPCM, of course, must still undergo D/A conversion in the AVR.

I think Denon's proprietary i-Link connection may send an MLP bitstream between compatible Denon components, not sure though.

But only after decoding/uncompressing/unpacking to LPCM. The PCM data is sent to the AVR via HDMI where it is processed and converted to analog.

By the same token, HD-DVD/BD players that decode internally don't need 6 analog outs, just an HDMI 1.1 connection and AVR (that accepts HDMI audio), as decoded TrueHD, etc. is PCM.

In the end, it really doesn't matter where this decoding occurs, the unpacking to PCM must occur regardless before any processing and D/A conversion.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Thanks for the review. Whew I'm glad someone owns this machine - it's been on sale for like 3 years now so I was hoping someone would chime in.

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Jack: appreciate the explanation. So it looks like the player manufacturers want the receiver companies to include the processing chips. Oh wait, excpet for Sharp I guess they're both made by the same companies. Er, so is the consumer benefitting from this somehow?......

Re: Need a new DVD-Audio Machine

Sorry to get back on track - but I have talked to two salesman (well one women) and they swore up and down that if I bought a HD Blue Ray machine, most have 7.1 jacks on the back and would be able to play DVD-Audio - any truth to this?