Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I have to say, David, I also don't understand this mindset that people are owed something because their side has seemingly lost. When you're an early adopter of any format, you're taking a gamble. That's the way it's always been.

Don't get me wrong, I feel for the people who've invested a ton of money into HD DVD. Though I also have to say, it's not like their software is suddenly rendered worthless.

I don't know, I just disagree on the whole mindset that anyne is owed anyone by the BDA, Warner, Sony, or anyone else.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

i wouldn't trade in my A1 for a discount on a new Bd player...but I would definitely consider trading it in for a discount on a new Toshiba HD DVD/Bd player- if it were of similar quality construction.
I would even pay up to another $500 + the trade-in on a unit like that.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I wonder if I can get some kind of compensation for the Betamax VCR I bought in 1983?

Seriously though it's a ridiculous notion. Anybody that bought a HD player and it's software before the war was over knew or should of known that their player could very well be obsolete eventually. If you gamble and lose then you lose .. period. I'm sure the casinos in Las Vegas don't give you some compensation if you gamble all your money away.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I have an hd dvd player, it works, the discs play fine. Under law, toshiba must maintain parts and service for five years, why should I be given a free bluray copy of that same disc, to what purpose? I get a free bluray copy, because, Dave, I sure in hell am not giving up my hd dvd copy of that flim.

This entire proposal is assuming that someone with an hd dvd library has somehow had it rendered obsolete when that is not the case. And that they are going to make an immediate jump to a rival format. You will be able to pick up WB titles on hd dvd for several more months. At that time, you will make a decision that if you wish to continue to purchase WB high def titles, you will have to acquire a bluray player.

The kicker here, is what happens should universal and paramount drop hd dvd shortly, which I think is a very real possibility. Should they also be required to offer compensation. Where does it end? The consumer electronics field is littered with orphaned products, this is nothing new.

I have both hd dvd and bluray as do many people, so what compensation should someone receive if lets say they have 200 movies on hd dvd and 50 on bluray. Compensation for what, exactly? What are they out on those 200 hd dvd movies? I could always choose to sell off my hd dvd library and my movies. Is that not compensation thru the free market system.

Everyone knew that this war would get ugly and end ugly. Once those last ditch negotiations between toshiba and sony broke down, this end became a foregone conclusion, it was never of matter of if, just when.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

It's not really technically that they are "owed" anything, but let's be realistic for a second. REMOVE all those consumers from the equation, heck just take out the HD buyers. How's that adoption of the new format(s) coming then?

This is a symbiotic situation. We've seen the importance 100 times over right here at HTF. Studios and hardware companies care about what we think because they only live if we buy.

So do you alienate that group or do you work with them to maintain that healthy relationship? It's not smart to poison the well from which you drink.


IMO if Warners wants to say "thanks for supporting our HD effort, now come with us to BD" they need to give us a reason. Does anyone think WB would prefer to have burned HD buyers just refuse to buy BD product from WB? I seriously doubt it.

Right now if WB wants to sell me HD content it has to be in HD-DVD format. By going exclusive they are passing up that chance, but clearly they are hoping that I'll follow them over to BD. But that's a little like Tina following Ike around right now, I'm not in a big hurry even when I do bring in the new BD player.

Some of the cash WB has used to do whatever HD/BD business it has been doing has come from selling HD discs. So yeah, I think they do "owe" that market something.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Clearly you have not been to Vegas then. This is explicitly what they do!

Get a comp card, put it in machines or scan it at tables when you play. Regardless of winning or losing, if you play a lot you get some comps. Why? Because their business is to keep you alive and gambling, not to beat you down so bad you never come back.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

People are making a mistake in not realizing some simple economics. WB losing an hd dvd sale on a new and upcoming movie does not equate into no sale of that film to the stanch hd dvd owner. That owner could very easily buy the dvd version instead.

This is without a doubt the logic employed by Paramount execs when rationalizing their decision in not putting Transformers onto bluray. If there's one film that would've sold big on the ps3, its Transformers. They went, the ps3 guys will just buy it on dvd, so we're not out that much on lost sales.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Here's what I am pretty sure would happen.

If HD-DVD completely tanks...you'll see blow out, fire sale pricing. When Beta production ceased, Lasers stopped being pressed, and RCA's CED player was killed simply for a tax break...prices plummeted. (sp)

That's what you'll see...I doubt there would be any incentive from BD to bring you over to their camp, other the natural selection pricing drops that happen over the course of time for any electronic device.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I worked in the casino business for years, comps are designed to keep you playing so you'll lose even more. You especially want to comp big winners so they'll lose back what they won.

Try and ask the casino for your money back if you just lost your business, your house, and your sanity. Trust me when I tell you, if they got all your money, they could care less whether you're alive or dead. I had a high roller at my table one day and the next day when I came into a work, I had a fellow worker tell me, did you hear, player x had killed himself, his pregnant wife, and his three children and left a suicide note, blaming his gambling problem and our casino. The only thing the casino cared about was whether his surviving relatives would file a civil lawsuit. The casino business is heartless as they come.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Oh please, this whining and hand-wringing is getting down right pathetic. I AM one of these people and I don't think I "deserve" anything. I'm a grown-up and I made my choices with my eyes open. What do I have for that? I have a shelf (several shelves, actually) full of great HD media and a terrific player to play it with. I got what I paid for.

Warner made a business decision. Regardless of their reasons, it's done. And everyone on this forum and the others as well, should have known something like this was going to happen. One "side" was going to "lose". If so many people were not so emotionally wrapped up in this corporate competition in the first place, we would not be having this conversation. We would be looking forward to having a high quality HD format with all studios fully committed to taking as much of our money as possible. I certainly am.

The format war is over. To the victor the spoils. In this case, fans of movies in HD will actually get something out of this. Yeah, some guys will have to buy another player. Sorry, that's life in a world where corporate hacks make the rules. Consumers never had any say in this so-called war, and we have no say now. Why do so may have such a hard time with that.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Naturally. And that will happen. It's a bit different with Universal as they'll be reacting out of necessity to the market place. Paramount's move back to BD will be similarly necessary. WB had the unique priviledge of being the only dual-format studio at the time it made its decision and also being the studio who's decision decided the fate of the format war.

If the majoritiy of HD DVD consumers don't feel that any compensation by WB or the BDA is in order then more power to ya! you were definitely early-adoptors who deserve my full respect for the willing risk you took in full aknowlegement of how the situation could play out.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Hmm, my HD DVD player and titles are still working just fine. I don't consider them obsolete at all, and I will have plenty of years to enjoy what I have. I'll still be purchasing some titles later on, and if or when HD DVD is officially dead, then I'll think about Blu-ray and no I don't expect any compensation at all.
That would be like having the people who have or had LD's should be compensated when SD DVD took over.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I think this issue for you and bill hunt is more about you guys wanting to appear magnanimous in the face of bluray securing a victory, something which both you and bill have vigorously campaigned for, than any real concern for hd dvd adopters. Both you and he are still vigorously campaigning for bluray and after a while, its get real annoying, even for someone like me, who shifted his purchase habits from hd dvd to bluray some months back, though somewhat reluctantly.

Let's examine in detail Bill Hunt's proposal for what it is, a disingenuous condescending piece of malarkey, as he's still spinning and campaigning for bluray.

"Warner and the rest of the BDA should make some kind of offer to HD-DVD enthusiasts that would allow them to exchange a few of their HD-DVD discs for Blu-ray versions of the same titles, or to provide some kind of additional discount on Blu-ray players to those who have purchased HD-DVD players prior to December 31st 2007, to help them migrate to Blu-ray more easily and painlessly. It would be a nice gesture."

There's no concern expressed here for hd dvd adopters, he's basically saying, hey, let's give all those hd dvd losers a break, and throw them a bone and move them to bluray as quickly as possible to bury hd dvd and forget it ever existed. Migrate to bluray? What does Bill Hunt think, hd dvd owners are a brainless flock of geese to be herded into the bluray pen. His analysis of the format war has been quite astute, but he's also an insufferable personality who grates on your nerves.

Hd dvd was, is an excellent format that unfortunately had to go up against a stacked deck. Had the ps3 not stumbled so badly in establishing any meaningful sales, this so called war would not have materialized. But, the ps3 did stumble, and the bluray launch, in general was so bungled that it gave hd dvd a window of opportunity. Hd dvd was the little format that could, but it couldn't in the end. It was the underdog, it was the david to sony's goliath and it should come as no surprise that people express a certain amount of affection for the format.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I think if Warner Bros are eventually going to re-release HD DVD titles on Blu-Ray then they should allow owners of the HD DVD's to show up with proof of purchase UPC's or something and get a copy of their HD DVD's on Blu-Ray.

No one likes the double dips.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I'm amazed by people's insinuation of the inevitability of HD DVD's failure, when so much being said seems to indicate that HD DVD nearly snagged the largest studio as well as a strong Blu-ray studio. It would seem Warner planned all along to go red as their releases on HD DVD nearly always were superior to the Blu-ray releases.


You know, regarding David's suggestion, it's actually a fairly ingenious way for Blu-ray to end Toshiba's chances of dragging this out. Sony clearly isn't opposed to making up-front payments for a long term investment, though between the financial losses on the PS3 to the almost certainly huge pay-off to Warner I would wonder how much money they have left in the tank, actually offering credits for HD DVD owners would effectively destroy the format. A well publicized move by Sony would render HD DVD's goose effectively cooked. Won't happen. But it might make sense to start making money on software from early adopters who are more willing to pay $30 for software than the late adopters that will wait until their $10 or $15

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

As someone who has about 100 HD-DVD titles, let me make the following observations:

My original Sony DVD player, purchased back in 1998, is still going strong at the house of the friend I gave it to.

My Panny LD player, purchased in 1990, still works just fine whenever I need a fix of the original, unmodified Star Wars trilogy.

I even have a Technics CD player I bought back in 1986 which still works.

My point being, in my experience these single-disc players, if well maintained, seem to hold up pretty well over time (the same can't be said of multi-disc devices, due to the more complicated transport mechanisms. I've already been through two DVD carousels). My Tosh XA2 is a pretty well-built piece of kit. It outputs a stunning picture at 1080p24 to my new Sony SXRD display. I feel pretty sure that it will continue to do so for several years to come, certainly long enough to get my money's worth out of my little collection.

Now, if WB did offer an HD for BD trade-in program, would I take advantage of it? Sure. Do I expect them to?? Not a chance. And I'm fine with that.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Why?
And to answer this properly, just also assume for a moment that HD DVD wins eventually.


Cees

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I've been hearing primarily 2 things from HD-DVD supporters. Either 1) They should have told us before Christmas, or 2) This war should have continued so that I can invest even more money in the format that's probably lost.

1) EVERYONE was told before Christmas over and over and over and over again that they had a 50% chance of buying into a format that could soon be effectively obsolete. They CHOSE to buy into HD KNOWING they could LOSE. I know I did.

2) This format war couldn't have ended a day too soon. Seriously, how much longer would people have wanted to invest in either format that could eventually lose out?? Would it have been better to wait until June? Or maybe until right before next Christmas so that people can't complain that they weren't told before Christmas? Some people here want to hold onto their HD-DVD anyways, but a lot don't.

A couple of days before Warner's announcement, I found myself (a Blu-ray purchaser) thinking that maybe I had bought into the (eventually) losing format. How did I feel? A little disappointed, but I also knew I had a game plan in place for how I would handle it. I knew it was a decision that I had made, so I had to deal with the consequences. Basically, the best I would have done would have been to just get as much money as I could off my blu-ray stuff, then move on. As it stands, I'm still thinking I'll have to buy another HDTV in a year or 2 because the current ones haven't been perfected yet. But I know that's the price of being an early adopter.


But, I also knew it would have made me feel a little better if some kind of exchange program were in place in case the format I bought into did lose. The most realistic program I can think of is to allow an exchange of like for like titles, the same way the music business sometimes did when CD first came out, when they would allow people to exchange their vinyl for CDs.

I do support that gesture, since I don't think this format war should have lasted as long as it did, especially the way they've been pushing HD down everyone's throats for so long.

And, for me, this IS out of concern for HD-DVD supporters and nothing else.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Woah. WHAT? I, for one, don't what HD-DVD hardware to end up like fuckin LD players (expensive and hard to find).

I also dislike BD technology. I intended on owning a PS3 for gaming purposes at some point anyway and being able to pickup whatever I can't buy/import on HD-DVD. I would never want a standalone BD player though unless they start making region free ones. I absolutely hate the idea of region locks. I also don't like constantly hearing about everything requiring firmware updates just to play the new releases every week. If the companies pumping out all these discs can't stick to a goddamn standard instead of trying to do weird shit all the time, I say to hell with them. I have yet to buy an HD-DVD that won 't play on my A3 with its factory firmware. SD-DVD players NEVER required firmware updates to play legit discs. It's just lame.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

More from Bill Hunt:


He's setting up his readers to think that he came up with this idea on his own when I'm sure he had already heard about it in advance from his industry contacts. When WB announces an HD for Blu trade-in program or whatever it is they plan on doing, he'll be the first to say "This was my idea and I think its great". I've seen several posters here at HTF on both sides of the format war talk about how they've lost all respect for Bill Hunt as he changed into a raging Blu Fanboy and I couldn't agree more.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Ah, no. My Toshiba 2108 required firmware upgrades to play early DVDs. In those days, you had to ship the entire unit to a service department in Tenn. and wait weeks to get it back with the upgrade installed. We "early DVD adoptors" were very happy when "user firmware updating" took place circa 2000.

There is historical precidence for a payment to upgrade a phased-out technology. "Early adopters" of OTA NTSC sets (from circa 1950-2004) have been told by the US government (FCC) that OTA NTSC broadcasts are going away in about a year. The government is making available "payment vouchers" of around $40-50 towards the purchase of a stand-alone ATSC tuner so those poor people can continue to receive OTA broadcasts into the future.

EDIT: Here's the voucher site. https://www.dtv2009.gov/

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

It could be a rather simple scheme, Bill Hunt has thought up:

(1) You buy a new BD stand-alone player or a PS3 at the new prices.

(2) You present the proof of purchase after Jan 4th '08 of such a player to the BDA, who will then replace the HD DVD titles you hand over to them for you by the same or more or less similar movies on BD.

(3) You destroy your now useless HD DVD player. You have no obligation whatsoever to send a proof of this to the BDA!
(Or else you continue to use it to play your old SD DVDs upscaled - not the new SD DVDs, these will soon have the ICT-bit set.)

Win/win, for sure! And purely with the interest of the consumer in mind, of course!


Cees

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Cees,

usually mods are the ones helping to keep the discussion in the bounds of reason... not spin them into realms of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. Of course, there might be a bit of telling humor written into that statement, so I'll go under that assumption.

Guys, no one is going to make anyone get rid of their HD DVD player. Why would they? And there's plenty of HD DVD titles out there that won't show upon BD for a long time *even if* Universal and Paramount both declared they'd start releasing BDs tomorrow. The BDA isn't bothered that you have HD DVD discs and players. Why would they? All they would care about is that, moving forward, you buy Blu-ray software.

Look, if folks who backed BD from the start are trying to be good sports about it winning given the understandable frustration that many avid HD DVD enthusiasts would be feeling, cut them some slack. Talk about sour grapes: I suppose if Bill Hunt just celebrated Blu's victory without a single thought for HD DVD consumers that would be better? We should all know (well, most of us... I know Cees still disagrees ) that despite the pros of the format war (low prices etc.) we were approaching a time when the bad would outweigh the good with too many consumers sitting it out afraid of buying the "wrong" format and so choosing to go with neither. Going on too long, this would prevent *any* HD disc format from ever moving past a small niche market for hard-core enthusiasts... which means less 1080p software for us all with limited studio and industry support (ie: not good for anyone who like HD).

I thought from the sound of other threads and other mods and Ron himself in other threads that we have moved past all that and were now shaking hands that the future of HD media is, for all intents and purposes, moving to a single blue format and it's now just a matter of time. Cees, is there still value to be gained in trying to promote the (now unreasonable) possibility that HD DVD will continue to maintain long-term market viability?


Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Were Bill (and folks like me) to celebrate BD's victory we'd be critizied. And if we try to empathize with our fellow HD collectors who supported HD DVD, we're criticized. I've been a member hear since 1999. I think my track-record for trying to treat others fairly and respectfully speaks for itself.

And guys, Bill isn't taking credit that he gave the BDA the idea of a peace offering, and to suggest that he needed them to tell him of this in advance is just silly: lots of folks here, at AVS, and Blu.com were talking about the idea of a peace-offering even before Bill made his post at the bits and without the BDA needing to plant the notion in our brains. I'm sure Bill could come up with that on his own without needing the BDA to give him the idea.


Bill's biggest mistake has been his candid honesty and perspective on this format war since the very beginning. He's not the bad guy, and of all the perspectives we've had on this war, his turned out to be the one that most accurately revealed the situation as it really has turned out to be. If rather than gloat with an "I told you so" attitude he wants to do what he can to respect the feelings of HD DVD consumers who are understandably not thrilled with recent events, that's to his credit.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Judging by what you just said you don't sound like a person who meets the requirements of an early adopter. You should definitely sit this whole thing out until an overall winner is in place and they have perfected their hardware. SD DVD was imperfect for a couple of years. How many remember all the "this disc won't play in my player" stories we heard when DVD first arrived. Early adopters need to be able to handle stuff that has bugs that need to be worked out. You don't sound like you're up to it.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

and if he had changed into a raging HD DVD Fanboy?

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Yes, that brings back memories. I had to do the same send-it-in for a firmware upgrade with my SD-2108, the first DVD player I ever bought (for $333 from OneCall). But even after that, Disney started coming out with new discs that had serious playback issues on the 2018 (Dinosaur and The Emperor's New Groove were two I remember). To my knowledge Toshiba never did come up with a firmware upgrade to handle that problem, as far as I know. I lost interest at about that point when I got a new player (Panny RP-91), but my mother-in-law still has that 2108 after I passed it on to her.

I also owned a cheaper Philips-Magnavox DVD player for awhile that had firmware upgrades via disc (downloaded from internet, burned to CD-R), and my Panny RP-91 has had several upgrades via CD-R too, although not necessarily to fix playback problems.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

The company that owes customers is Warner because they lied to their customers. After one of Warner's executives talked about hd exclusivity, they spent the next several days denying that's what he said. They even issued press releases supporting blu-ray and hd-dvd. They did not give anyone any notice of what they were doing. In my book that's fraud. They should issue refunds to customers who bought any hd-dvds between that date and the date the news leaked out.

You are right that most people bought hd-dvd players knowing that they could be paperweights. However most people did not know that the war would be decided by who could put more 0s on their check. They assumed that the consumer would decide.

I also think that a peace offering will not do much. While blu-ray was trying to kill hd-dvd, it wounded itself so much that it may bleed to death from the wounds. Hd-dvd did something that blu-ray has not done. It gained a toehold
beyond early adopters. It took a $98 sale to do it. Go to these people and offer anything that requires them to shell out more money and they won't do it. They won't want to get burned again. That's what will also discourage ordinary people from buying into blu-ray. I believe the best blu-ray will do is a niche format.

I will not accept any peace offerings. I am not a lemming that takes something that's shoved down my throat by kickbacks. I am so disgusted with
this thing that I will not subsidize fraudulant business tactics. I will continue collecting dvds and if Paramount and Universal will release any good hd-dvd titles, I will buy them. I may even buy another hd-dvd player to salt away.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, I the consumer have opened up my wallet many, many times to cast my vote that I believed HD DVD was the best choice for me. I also have a PS3 however I have not bought any blu ray movies for it since I wanted my vote to be clear, HD DVD was what I wanted. I feel like my best interests as a consumer will be ignored by Sony and The BDA , and I for one would rather go SD than support a format that I don't like, I and I imagine others like me will simply not purchase BLU and go back to old SD viewing habits.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I will say, I wasn't crying when the Paramount deal happened, but Warner definately IS a different situation as illustrated by Francis.


They tried to place trust in consumers by making sure to let everyone know they had no intentions of switching. One guy at a BDA conference says something, and Warner specifically sets it straight.


Also, just because Warner is releasing the already announced titles doesnt mean crap. It's a done deal anyways, and they actually say their not sure how to approach those releases.


I bet they don't release Twister even.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Then posters on the other two sides of the format war would talk about how they've lost all respect for Bill Hunt.


Cees