Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Indeed. HD-DVD must now find that "Eye of the Tiger."

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

And what of Warners???
I think everyone will agree that sales of hardware and software for the last quarter for BOTH formats were, to say the least, spectacular!
Optimism on both sides of the fence ran high during that quarter as I remember and HDM's momentum as an industry appeared to be on the right track. Even though the industry was still deeply divided, the sales outlook for 2008 looked even more promising than 2007.

Than Warners delivered the BOMB!!! Suddenly, probably 50%, of the online subscribers to forums such as this felt like they got punched in the stomach. To me it was like someone let all the air out of the HDM balloon. Warners appeared to be handing over the industry to a crowd mostly composed of "gamers" that posted the number of "kills" (read BR titles bought) in their signatures like fighter pilots during WWII for Christ sake.

The positive momentum that HDM carried into this quarter seems to have run into a brick wall!!! Does Warners realize, or for that matter care, about what havoc they may have wrought. Do they, or the BDA, believe that the general public is going to run out and buy $400 PS3s now that the format war may be over? Dream on.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Amen to that. Do you really think I'm going to run out and buy a Blu-Ray player now? Or a game system I neither want nor can afford (I already have an Xbox 360, which has the better platform-specific games by far). HELL NO. I'd like a good dual-system machine, but those seem to have serious bugs and software limitations and aren't going to be near any sort of price-point I can approach in the near future. I bought plenty of Warner HD discs in 2007. Doesn't look like I'll be buying any in 2008.

Complaining about Toshiba's tactics takes a lot of gall, but between David's and Bill Hunt's single-sided rants, I'm getting used to that.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Haha, I did.

But to be honest, you're completely right.

I dont' know which way it's going, but I felt like it was the right time to get into Blu-Ray because it was definately gonna be a longer time untill the movies I wanted came red too.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

The ps3 was the big winner during november and december. 466k sold in november, we're waiting on december numbers. I noticed in numerous cases, that the people picking up ps3s at B&M's were definitely non-gamer types. You know, family types, moms and dads. And guess what, they were paying $400 and even $500 for their ps3s.

WB indicated they would weigh their options and no decision would be made until after the holiday season. The big suprise, is that they made it so soon after.

You see listing me the number of BR titles I've bought? And I'm a gamer and a movie lover. The ps3 is a multimedia device. Guess what, hd dvd is a multimedia device, it plays hd dvds, regular dvds and cds. But, because the ps3 can do more, much more, this is somehow, a bad thing.

Yeah, I really hate the convenience of built in wifi to painlessly update the firmware, that's such a bad thing, I really hate having a built in hard drive, user upgradeable, and being able to load up my cd collection on my hdd, along with photos, videos, games, etc. I really hate hooking up to PSN and being able to download movie trailers in high def, I really hate being able to do a quick internet browse on the ps3. And yeah, it plays games. So what?

If the ps3 were a crap bluray player, you might actually have some point to make. Its not and you don't. Heres a reality check, gaming has been mainstream for some time now. And many consumers are value shoppers. They like the idea of buying one device that can do a lot of different things. You know this thing, called the personal computer that's caught on, it does a lot of different things and people like that.

So, your entire, thoroughly biased notion that the general public somehow won't embrace the ps3 for its varied capabilities I find laughable, to say the least. Sony sold over 100 million ps2s worldwide. Sony is said to already be at break even in terms of their cost structure on the ps3. Toshiba can do what they want, but when sony drops the price on the ps3 to $299, what's toshiba going to do then?

The world evolves and flexible multimedia devices rule the day. Who buys a stereo receiver any more to listen to music, who buys a standalone cd player anymore. The ipod has evolved, the ps3, due to this gaming stigma, is considered somehow inferior. Ironic that its the only standalone bluray player to make profile 1.1, it loads the fastest and is the easiest to do firmware upgrades on and boasts the fewest playback problems with bluray discs. Sorry, bigluigi, but its a kickass device.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

This is a totally b.s. fanboy argument. You could say the exact same thing about the Xbox 360, which does everything the PS3 can do other than the HD playback, which is optional with the HD-DVD add-on. Should the 360 have contained an HD-DVD drive? Maybe, but then it would have ran costs up higher and would have postponed the launch of the console by a year. The PS3 did well at Xmas because of the lowered cost of the cheaper 40 gig version, even though it doesn't play PS2 games (though, in all fairness, the 360's backwards-compatibility issues are legendary).

Warner didn't do this because the PS3 did well over Xmas, but because they had a ton of money shoveled at them, the same way Paramount did when they had cash sent their way. It doesn't make Warner's decision any less odious-- there a lot of people who feel misled by them by their constant mantra that they were going to carry both formats. The PS3 did well over Christmas, true; so did the Xbox 360-- both were bested by the Wii.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

But why should we care how the XBox 360 (or the Wii) did in this part of the discussion unless you're arguing that people buy the XBox 360 primarily to watch movies?? That may or may not be true for a significant segment of the Xbox 360 market, but it doesn't invalidate his point in the least.

The point he made was about the PS3 being a good multimedia device that does an excellent job playing BDs. The PS3 does *not* have to be looked down on as a gamer machine, and plenty of people are apparently buying it for reasons other than just (or even primarily) gaming. I got mine recently primarily to playback BDs (and DVDs in the same machine), and I even use some of the other functions more than gaming, which I've done zero of so far.

Also, he makes a good point that gaming in the home has gone mainstream anyway. There really is no such thing as a gamer market in the way that some folks are arguing anymore -- it's more like there's a traditional/hardcore gamer market, a mainstream market that includes lots of gamers, and then non-gamer market. Heck, I used to be a traditional gamer long ago, but I rarely play games anymore. But my wife and the kids have taken over our XBox and might well play some games on the PS3 too -- and they'd belong to the mainstream crowd. And like you implied, serious gamers would probably prefer the XBox 360 over the PS3 (at least for now) anyway.

It's really silly to continue bashing the PS3 as nothing but a gaming machine that just happens to play BDs. It's not like it does a mediocre job of playing BDs afterall. Besides, aren't both HDM formats pushing gaming (and other interactivity features) onto the market anyway? Heck, it's the HDD folks who keep bashing BD players for missing features that will enable gaming and such, rather than just the traditional movie viewing experience, afterall. Seems almost like HDD folks actually secretly want their players to be gaming machines, LOL. Of course, I'm just kidding about that, but you can see how silly these arguments can be, don't you?

_Man_

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I think the point here is that HD-DVD owners are sick of having a $400 game system shoved in their face when there SHOULD be a comparable BD stand-alone alternative for a cheaper price. I think it's a bit disingenuous to continue avoiding this issue.

Is this too much to ask?

A full featured 2.0 compatible stand-alone for $300 which is capable of doing what all HD-DVD players could do from day 1. There are film enthusiasts who simply don't want to have a gaming system as their primary playback device for various reasons and they shouldn't be attacked for this. You or any other BD proponent can deem this naive or short-sighted all you want, but the reality is that BD manufacturer's SHOULD have a fully featured player for less money than the PS3. How much does this have to be stressed?

You can continue hawking the PS3 all you want, but I (and I'm sure many others) will wait until a cheaper full-featured stand-alone device hits the market.

If you think that's short-sighted or naive, so be it.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Reggie,

I agree. There should be a plethora of low-cost 2.0 BD player *other than* the PS3. I've argued that point quite a bit... even at blu.com


I agree that buying higher-cost BD hardware that's not fully featured is something of an insult to an ardent HD DVD collector. It's one reason why I started the thread suggesting that the BDA make ammeds by helping to soften the blow with some sort of assistance. Hopefully Toshiba will release a decent combo-player that will meet your needs at an attractive price as well (maybe by late 2008).


About as much gall as it seems to take HD DVD fan boys who would seem to prefer that both formats flounder and fail than concede to a market solution to have one successful HDM format with lasting potential. I'm getting used to that too.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I think these comments sum up the situation pretty well, and did so with less text than I did.

If the Blu-ray group wants to attract HD DVD enthusiasts, they would do well to provide those enthusiasts with a machine that meets or exceeds the capabilities of their HD DVD player at a similar price.

Setting aside Toshiba's recent price cuts, even the original list prices for the 3rd generation units would probably be acceptable:

Category 1 - $300
Entry level, but with PiP and Internet connectivity. In Blu-ray terms, this means both Bonus View and BD-Live.

Category 2 - $400
Step up mid-range model that provides a little extra. (e.g. 1080p24, maybe onboard decoding of lossless audio but only output via HDMI - but no analog outs).

Category 3 - $500
Top level product that offers onboard lossless audio decoding via HDMI and analog outputs, as well as bitstream audio output via HDMI.

Toshiba had a good thing going with these three levels, because they were able to hit people with succinct offerings based on their needs and pricing tolerance. I believe that offering products to fit the above categories and price structures would result in successfully attracting HD DVD owners.

The only Blu-ray capable device on the market that fits into any of the above categories is the Playstation 3, which would best fit into category 2. The price is right, and the features are close to being right. Sony informally assured everyone at CES that it will be upgraded to BD-Live, and I would think that they couldn't afford not to do so. They have too much at stake with the numbers that have been sold and the customer expectation that it will, even though nothing official has come from Sony.

The PS3 does present an attractive value for everything that it does. I am considering buying one. However, it continues to be sold as a game system and buying a game system when one doesn't need or want a game system can be hard for some people to accept. You will find it categorized under "Toys & Games" on many retailer web sites. That creates a stigma that it's not a true component and that it is primarily a gaming system. Add on top of that the lack of complete IR support, and it only reinforces that issue.

From an HD DVD owner's perspective, it's frustrating and almost laughable that there aren't decent standalone units that are feature-compatible with first generation HD DVD players at any price, much less a reasonable price. My HD-A1 has analog outs, TrueHD decoding via HDMI (no DTS-HD MA), and I paid $400 back in October 2006, which is forever ago in the consumer electronics world. I would put the A1 and A2 that I have in Category 1 because they lack 1080p24, but the A1 comes close to being closer to Category 2 with the analog outs and TrueHD decoding.

The Panasonic DMP-BD50 sounds like a great unit, and it would fit solidly into Category 3. However, its release date is uncertain (Spring is the only timeframe) and the price has been vaguely mentioned at "just above the DMP-BD30."

To my knowledge, none of the other Blu-ray players announced at CES meet even Category 1 because of the lack of BD-Live functionality. If I'm incorrect, please let me know where I can find details and I'll change the linked document to reflect that.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Ok. If the issue is simply w/ the frustration that there aren't enough worthwhile BD players available (or coming out soon), I definitely agree. No need to drag PS3 bashing into it though.

Honestly, as I mentioned elsewhere (in some player returns thread), I think they *all* need to work on the firmware update situation (and whatever disc authoring/manufacturing problems) too. *THAT* to me is at least as pressing as this profile spec issue. I honestly cannot recommend anyone go buy any player that is likely to be buggy and require multiple firmware updates just to play the movies w/out problems. And IMHO, this would apply to *both* BD and HDD.

_Man_

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

This is exactly right on the mark. Like I said earlier, my dream "peace offering" is a relatively affordable dual-format player that's completely up to spec and has been bug-tested over and over (I wonder if some of these players have even been checked out with anything other than bare-bones titles) so that early adopters of HD-DVD aren't stuck with libraries of titles rendered useless and, like the PS3, is upgradable. And frankly, while I'm glad I was able to buy an Xbox 360 add-on drive for $150 last summer, I would like something a little more stable and future-proof (and less noisy!).

I may eventually go the PS3 route -- I'm a gamer after all, even if most of the PS3-specific games kind of suck -- but it's pretty pathetic when a game console is the best option for BR playback, particularly one where the drive has to do double-duty as a game and movie-reader, thus increasing wear on the mechanism.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I AGREE WITH YOU!!! The PS3, I'm sure is a wonderful multi-media device that has gained considerable acceptance around the world.....as a gaming machine! Will it "bring home the bacon" as the successor to the ubiquitous DVD player, I'm afraid NOT.

Let's face it folks, no matter how you spin it, all purpose multi-media devices that can do both games and movies appeal to different audiences separated by age as well as gender.
For example, the next time you go to Walmart check out the people hovering around the $5 DVD bins and you'll see that alot of them are women and older folk....not what you would call "good" PS3 material. Hell, their not even on the BDA's radar. And yet these same people account for a good portion of DVD sales and will ultimately determine if HDM goes niche or mainstream.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I won't "bash" the PS3 as long as others don't constantly promote the damn thing as the answer to every need.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Hey! I resemble all that as a relatively new PS3 owner who's neither female nor "old"! I must be ageless and genderless then. And when my wife understood the concept, it appealed to her too.

_Man_

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

If a consumer doesn't mind the odd looks of the machine, bluetooth remote, and lack of multi-channel analog output for audio, the PS3 is a valid swiss-army-knife of a BD movie player (with upgrade to full 2.0 spec including DTS-HD MA decoding on the way).

If someone wants a unit that has the feel of a traditional stand-alone in appearance, and wants IR remote capability for programming into a universal remote or doesn't have HDMI on their receiver and needs 5.1 or 7.1 analog connections for lossless audio, the PS3 isn't the answer. But outside of those restrictions, it's a great solution for most enthusiasts given the derth of 2.0 BD-live equipped players in the 1Q 2008.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Laying out all the ifs is what needs to be done whenever the PS3 is mentioned. That makes things much better.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Man,
You will be forever young!!!

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Gaming has gone mainstream because of the Wii in my opinion. I don't see grandma playing games on a PS3. I used to be a pretty hard core gamer, but the games got boring to be honest. The Wii has made gaming fun again and for the first time in about 10 or 12 years I'm thinking about buying a game system. But it won't be a PS3, or an xbox for that matter.

Doug

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

All these latest games pale in comparison to an online AOL PC game that old grandpa here use to play years ago called AIR WARRIOR. Now that was a game!!! It was short on graphics but long on action and suspense.
I'd like to try the Wii, but in my circle of friends (bunch of old geezers) there's not one Wii owner in the whole bunch. Hmmmmmmm....

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I don't know that the Wii would be all that popular w/ grandma either. I certainly haven't personally heard/known of any who play the Wii yet. However, I do wonder if grandma isn't doing the Webkinz thing w/ her grandkids nowadays now that Louis brings up AOL games. Someone I know does just that w/ *his* own preschool daughter -- and he's not a traditional gamer (nor an early adopter type) either -- and my wife also does that too. And I actually do play fantasy baseball (on the net) even though I don't really fit the usual gamer profile anymore. And ironically, if the PS3's web browser could handle an Adobe Flash Player plug-in, my family would actually be doing the Webkinz thing on it far more than playing any actual PS3 game.

Hmmm... Maybe there *IS* something to be said for web interactive features on HDM afterall.

_Man_

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I was a big M.U.L.E. fan myself. This is going back to the 8bit Atari days.

Doug

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Well the one thing that the Wii has done in my family is get people who have never played video games before to play. And it's the whole family playing, not just one person zoning out on a video screen. I think thats one reason that I find the Wii so fun, it's social in a face to face way, unlike most video gaming.

Doug

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I loved M.U.L.E. Maybe my favorite multi-player game of all time. Back in the days when EA was a cutting-edge company.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I still dig out my 800XL now and then to play M.U.L.E.

Doug

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

My 83 year old Mother in Law is living at an assisted living complex where they regularly twice a week have a Wii bowling night. They all love it.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

You're right on that, of course. I was just chiming in mainly because of Louis' reply. I actually secretly want the Wii to support both HDM formats so I could buy one for the HDM *and* for the more social gaming. Don't know if I'd actually play the Wii if we have one, but it sure does sound more suitable for the family than a PS3 or Xbox 360 as far as gaming goes. I do know a coworker who got into the Wii for his family exactly because of what you describe. He's definitely not a traditional gamer type and would probably hate the traditional gaming approach.

_Man_

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

People that insist on still buying into HD-DVD at this stage, when it is quite clear that Blu-Ray is definately going to be around irrespective of what happens to HD-DVD, certainly don't deserve any sympathetic consideration. Thus any "peace offering" if made, ought to be only based on marketing & promotional grounds and most certainly only to those who bought into HD-DVD before Warner's announcement.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Thankfully, it's not your decision to make if any such offer is made to begin with.

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Maybe so, but could you please explain the rationale as to why anyone who buys into HD-DVD now, after the Warner announcement, deserves consideration on sympathetic grounds? I have already expressed that I do favor an offer, based on marketing & promotional grounds and for those who bought into HD-DVD before the announcement.