Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

While I've been a strong supporter for Blu-ray since the inception of the "war", I haven't been blind to the positives of the format war; It's no secret that the BD format as it stands today has Toshiba and HD DVD, in large part, to thank for helping it become a format worth owing. I want to thank Toshiba/HD DVD because it was their influence (along with Warner) that actually transformed Blu-ray Disc into a format fit for audio/videophiles.

Prior to the launch of HD DVD, Sony's proposed Blu-ray Spec was to include MPEG2 video *only*, and PCM was the only provision for lossless sound. While those two options could still provide high-quality pictures and sound at generous bit-rates, they negated any advantage that 50GB and high-bit-rate bandwidth might have otherwise provided. It was only because of competition with HD DVD that the BDA acted and incorporated AVC, VC-1, and Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA into the BD spec which allowed the higher-bandwidth and 20GB of additional space able to be used meaningfully to provide greater transparency, extras, or both.

Had the format war never taken place, or Toshiba's HD DVD format not been so well designed with advanced audio and video codecs to make more efficient use of the more limited space/bandwidth needs of HD DVD, Blu-ray Disc would be another MPEG2 format using up vast amounts of space whenever lossless audio was provided.

I just recently reviewed The David Matthew's BD and the 5.1 24/96 kHz Dolby Digital TrueHD soundtrack was astounding... and provided higher quality than the 24/48 PCM soudtrack that would have consumed the same amount of space, not to mention the transparent video compression of the many dark/hard-to-compress scenes since MPEG2 wasn't used. At this point the majority of BD titles are compressed with AVC/VC-1: HD DVD's influence hasn't just been a spec-change on paper for the BD medium: it's made a difference.

Now that Warner has moved to Blu-ray Disc, HD DVD will most likely become the "beta" of the HD format war. However, the positive effects of HD DVD have been significant, and have actually made BD format a MUCH better product than it otherwise would have been. BD still has a way to go to fully catch up with HD DVD hardware (profile 1.1 is now just available and 2.0 web-interactive features are still on the way) so it's not time to rest our feet on the coffee table with BD just yet. But BD wouldn't be where it is now if it weren't for HD DVD.

Re: Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

Well, you know David, this is one of the occasions where I can fully agree with you.
Indeed the "war" (I like to call it competition) has brought us some goodies - and I personally would not have regretted it to linger on a while. On the other hand: if it's mainly over now, that might bring us some well-deserved peace, although, like you said we need to stay vigilant. There are some aspects we need to keep watching with a distrusting eye (I mentioned them before, I won't here).


Cees

Re: Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

Well.


For whats it's worth, the War was kind of what made Hi-Def fun.


It's like anything with wager, and that's kind of what made me more excited about it.


But now it's like a game of bingo gone wrong.

Re: Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

I applaud everything you just said, David.

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David-
Well put. While the competition sometimes brought out the worst in all us, it brought out the best in both formats.

EDIT: This was a two way street. Was it any accident that we were seeing more Dolby TrueHD titles, or that as BD got closer to 1.1 we started seeing more creative special features from HD DVD? Nope. Competition. I hope that all the studios realize that they are competing with DVD and keep pushing what they can do with audio, video and special features.

Re: Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

Well put David.

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Thanks for posting that, David. I've always preferred Blu-Ray over HD-DVD, but I don't discount HD-DVD's value (which is why I've been format neutral). So... thanks, HD-DVD.

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Well put, but like Adam said it was a two-way street. After all, HD-DVD was originally going to use red lasers.

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David, could not agree with you more. Excellent post!

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Ditto all that.

_Man_

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An excellent post sir...

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Couldn't agree more! As much as I've hated the "war" there is no denying that the competition has had some very positive impacts.

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David, Thanks for the post. Like you I look forward to the future.

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David hit the nail on the head. I really think that in a few years from now, when we look back at this war just like we look back at the old DVD/Divx war, we'll actually see this war as something that led to more positives than negatives. It brought about the studios using and maturing new video codecs that would probably be used sparingly and not nearly as efficiently otherwise, paved the way for something like TrueHD that provided lossless without hogging space, caused all but one studio to use extensive supplements (die MGM), and I really don't think I would have just seen a Sony standalone player at Sam's for $277 this weekend without Toshiba's kamikaze pricing.

It's funny, with all the controversy and bad blood it generated, and honestly all the once really good websites/forums it darn near ruined, this war turned out to be a really big positive, and I don't think anyone can take an objective look at it and say otherwise. The right format won, but without the heat of a rival breathing down it's neck for a year, I don't think I would even have invested in it yet.

Hopefully we'll see some more folks come back to regular posting who kinda took a sabbatical during all the ugliness across the web.

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I also would like to thank HD DVD and Toshiba. BD's debut-with the faulty Samsung player and bad software-was a near fiasco. HD DVD was there to set a standard for quality, and thankfully, the BDA got their stuff together and fixed the Samsung player(via firmware), and created quality BD releases. We can only wonder how long BD would have floundered without another format to keep them on their toes.

Thanks, Toshiba. Thanks, Microsoft(and Amir). And, yes, thanks to WB for their quality releases on both formats, and a bright future for high def media.

Re: Thank-you HD DVD and Toshiba

Man,

it's so refreshing to read this thread and see how resonant we all are on this perspective.




Hopefully, just as with DVD, *competition between the studios for your movie-purchase dollar* will continue to be a source of motivation for the studios to keep the bar high, and continue to improve, their product.


Agreed. Sony's quick and thorough "about face" with their disc mastering would NEVER have happend so quickly or so effectively if HD DVD hadn't been there to shine a big embarassing light on just how sub-standard those early Blu-ray Discs really were. Ditto with the first Samsung player.

HD DVD did the hardest part by actually getting the Blu-ray Disc specification improved. Toshiba did even more work by not letting Sony get away with shoddy MPEG2 compressed discs made from legacy masters (we still have to get Universal away from their library of legacy masters they don't want to replace). But even with just one format there's still room for competition... because each studio is competing against each other studio for your cash because each of us only has so much to spend.

HD DVD and Toshiba have helped kick-start that progress for improving product right out of the gate... much faster than would have ever happened with one format alone. Now let's be sure and keep the heat on the studios to keep that momentum.

Warner, Paramount, and Universal can start off by committing to lossless audio on every high-definition disc they release... just a nice first suggestion...

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Group hug!

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Good to see David finally acknowledge the advantages of the format war.

Yep.

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People sure are quick to forget. HD DVDs launch was hardly flawless. Their first gen player had plenty of issues with playback. And from what I've been reading some of their 3rd gen product still has problems. Still, they have to be given credit for forcing the BDA to rapidly drop prices for their players and increase functionality.

On the whole, I still give the most credit for HD in its present form to SONY and the BDA. We would all be watching a red laser based, 15 gig, highly compressed HD format if they hadn't broken ranks to pursue a blue laser based system.

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It was great for enthusiasts but LOUSY for the everyday movie consumer.

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The "pros" to the format war that I mention in my opening post in this thread are a collection of statements I've been making since the format war began, both here and at other forums.



Buying the extended cut of LOTR on a 50GB disc with enough bandwidth to deliver transparent high-bit-rate video, PIP, and 24-bit lossless sound will also make hi-def fun.

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Quit it David. You're making me drool.

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David,

Thank you for this post. It is appreciated by all of us!

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Cause remember, in the end, all we got is each other!

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hey guys-
I gotta admit, I was beside myself when I learned about this yesterday. It felt SO GOOD to commit to the format (I got an A-3 for $199) and I really felt betrayed! I mean, I am used to supporting the underdog (Mac user in the early 90s) but wow, I really felt that HD-DVD was a terrific format for the HT enthusiast on a budget (given the mandatory audio standards on entry level players, etc).

I have been trolling the boards and I am so grateful for a great conversation on this topic. I'm not surprised, of course, but it's been a real pleasure catching up on this thread (which grew three pages while I read!).

David, wonderful post, Ron, thanks for the guidance. It will take me awhile to get over this, I admit...but oh well. I hope that we'll see more features on entry level blu-ray players (I liked plugging my A3 into my router for some reason) now that things look a little more certain.

I am actually going to CES on Tuesday...I will be looking forward to seeing what the HD-DVD folks are going to be saying...

have a nice weekend, everyone.

-mike

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I can only speak for myself, but I had the HD-A1 on the day it was released in April of '06, the Samsung HD1000 the weekend before its official release, and I now own an HDA3 and a Sony BDPS301. I never had a problem with the A1, the A3 or the Sony. However, the Samsung was so poor on launch that I came very close to returning it(in fact, I took it to Circuit City, but had it for a little over the thirty days. They offered me a discount, so I took that instead of pushing the issue).
Once the firmware update was issued, and good software released(from WB, and then Disney), I was satisfied. But I was one of the first people to have both formats, wanted to love both, and I'll tell you right now, BD was completely unsatisfactory on its launch. The early software from Sony, particularly XXX and HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS, were absolutely terrible.

First impressions are very important, especially for a high def medium where an upgrade in picture quality is essential. I'm 100% behind BD now, but there is no way that HD DVD had a botched launch. The picture on those first three discs-PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, SERENITY, and THE LAST SAMURAI-was miraculous.

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Like you said people's experiences are different. I didn't bother with the Samsung (too expensive), but I did buy the A1. I'm not going to say that it was a poor performer, because it wasn't; however, I will say that I did have (and still do) problems with playback; therefore, I would not consider HD DVDs launch to be "perfect". In the early days of the launch there were plenty of people posting complaints about the perfomance of the players; however, I will agree with you that the general consensus was that the PQ and AQ of the media was outstanding.

When I bought a PS3 (also first gen) I did not experience any playback problems at all. Stability of playback was important to me and the PS3 delivered in spades. I can avoid bad transfers, but nothing pisses me off more than being taken out of a film by dropped audio, picture lockups and having to unplug a player because you pressed a button at the wrong time.Those were all problems that I experienced on my A1. Those basic operational problems were, and are, completely absent on my PS3. That being said, I agree that the launch of BD was marred by the release of poor quality transfers.

My main point is that the launches of both of these formats were nowhere near "perfect". It just seems like a lot of people have forgotten it.

BTW, I finally did pick up HOFD on a two for one sale. I agree that the transfer does seem to be sub-par; however, I was never able to see the film theatrically, so I am unable to determine how much of the "softness" was deliberate directorial choice and how much could be attributed to bad mastering.

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I sincerely hope that the complacent collective bleatings of BDA/Sony/Fox/Lionsgate/Pioneer etc do not return now that the 'shepherding ' effect of Hd-dvd seems diminished . If they don't get Profile 2.0 done and dusted as quickly ( and reliable ) as possible , the new format war against SD-Dvd could also be a tough struggle .

~M~

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Good points David. I have several HD DVD-titles and the quality is just great in many of them. It´s of course sad if this quality format eventually "fades away", but I still want that "one HD-format", not two. But as long as Paramount/DW and Universal are "HD DVD exclusives", I´ll keep buying some of their releases. It´s about the films!

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Good points. However, we still don't have a Blu-ray player with a level of audio support and next-gen features comparable to the basic HD DVD hardware spec. Since it appears that it takes a format war to force the BDA to provide true next-gen functionality (as DaViD points out), I think the war ended too soon. A few more months to accelerate the BDA 2.0 profile might have been worthwhile.

(And, of course, while I join others in perceiving the Warners announcement as a "death blow," it may be presumptuous to automatically assume this is the end of the war.)