Breaking News!! Warner is soon to be Blu-Ray Exclusive!

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

The Blu-ray side was attempting to follow the traditional CE industry planned obselecense marketing model. Milking consumers of extra dollars for each set of new features by requiring the purchase of a new player.
They don't seem to realize that there is a new mindset among consumers of CE equipment. That mindset being one of getting the most fully featured equipment possible for a price tag of 50 dollars.

I never thought I'd see a time when "home theater enthusiasts" would complain that 300 dollars for a player is "too expensive". Now its nothing but, "how long until we get $200, $100, FREE players".

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Actually, I don't think that's been the attitude of home theater enthusiasts. The argument has been that inexpensive (less than $100) players would be needed for mass adoption. People in these forums saying "I won't buy an HD unless it's less than 200 bucks" is the exception, I think. I've said repeatedly that all I ask for is a full featured BR that sells for less than 500 bucks. Too bad they haven't been able to do it.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

That's a wild release Dave. I'd be hosed off too. And didn't Wal-Mart fold it's download service a couple weeks ago?

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I love how people get out their tin foil hats and cry that MS has some evil plan to convert everything to downloads.

Here’s a reality check for all of the TFH people, the ones who would love the most to have download become the vehicle of choice are the studios themselves. It would dramatically reduce costs which would lead to increased profits.

It will not happen for many years but downloads are coming. There will always be some physical media available but downloads will become a major player. For those who don’t think it will happen because people like to have physical media, I have one word for you, iTunes.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Does anyone really think that WB is going to issue a press release saying they took a kickback? Or that Fox's only reason for being exclusive were the
kickbacks they got at the beginning? One would also assume that Disney and MGM's bluray exclusivity were also bought and paid for and had nothing to do with piracy. It also makes me wonder how far the payoffs go. It seems that amazon had a lot more sales on blu-ray than hd-dvd. Were they being paid off?

Reading how this whole thing came down, there's been only one time when I've been more disgusted. The company I am most disgusted with is Warner.
While they are saying they support blu-ray and hd-dvd, I now have no doubt they were planning to sell blu-ray or hdvd people down the river. If they had been honest from the start, I would not be as angry. I wouldn't have bought anything.

I made out my dvd list for 2008 as it stands now. It's dvd only for me. I have also stricken all warner titles off my list. In the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't make much difference to anyone but myself. At least my integrity is intact because I refuse to support underhanded tactics.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Hear hear! I know that some people already shout that they don´t "buy Blu-ray"-format (or HD DVD) etc, but when it comes to downloading, I can shout this for all the world to hear:

I WILL NEVER GOING TO USE ANY MOVIE-DOWNLOAD SERVICE WHEN IT COMES TO MOVIE COLLECTING. NEVER HAPPENS. F* that.

Give me the disc, the case, the cover art, the booklet and proper extras that are on the disc. Thank you very much.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I don't know about that. I've read plenty of posts on here, where people state they won't buy in until players are less than 200 or 100 dollars. BTW, that doesn't include you. I understand your frustration with not being able to purchase a full featured standalone BD player for <500 dollars. That is entirely the fault of BD camp who were attempting to follow an outmoded marketing method. Like I said they should wake up and realize that consumers are a little more sophisticated in that they want a complete feature set on equipment purchases right from the start.

I also think that the format war didn't just cause some consumers to sit on the side lines. I think there were quite a few manufacturers that were sitting things out too. More manufacturers may jump into the market now that there "appears" to be more certainty as to the dominant format. Sub 500 dollar players with a full feature set may show up a lot quicker now.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Well, I think this is somewhat disappointing for consumers, as I have always thought HD-DVD to be the more consumer friendly format. Indeed, I always perceived that’s why the movie industry was largely pushing Blu-ray; more DRM imposed on consumers and the continuation of restrictive region coding.

The numbers don’t lie, however, and I must admit that at this point in the game, Blu-ray is definitely the preferred format with most consumers, just as Warner contends. What I don’t understand is why we didn’t see more Internet unification (at least, more so than we already had) in support of HD-DVD. While I acknowledge that more GB per layer and greater bandwidth is certainly desirable, its merits can be debated when comparing those advantages with less copyright restrictions and the end of region coding. In the end, I always thought HD-DVD to be more consumer friendly and more versatile. (After all, you can burn HD content on a standard DVD to be played back on an HD-DVD player. Pretty nifty, if you ask me.)

All of that said, I would say that this move does indeed pretty much spell the eventual end of HD-DVD. I only wish I had known this information a month or so sooner, as it would have affected some of my recent purchases. For sure, I would have opted to get the Harry Potter films on BD instead of HD-DVD.

As it turns out, I just went format neutral about 3 weeks ago, having purchased a PS3. I have owned an HD-A1 for a year and half now. I have no regrets in investing in HD-DVD, and I was always comfortable with the notion that HD-DVD might ultimately lose the format war.

However, had I known a mere few weeks ago what I know now, I likely would have purchased a stand-alone player instead of a PS3; one capable of decoding advanced audio codecs and outputting over 5.1 analog outputs (my HT setup is devoid of HDMI connections). I did not worry about this before, because a month a ago, it looked as if both formats would endure for the foreseeable future, and since I leaned HD-DVD, with the bulk of my HD disc collection already being HD-DVD, I was content with using my HD-A1 as my “primary” HD disc player, and the PS3 as my “secondary” player. Now, I wish I had looked at a stand-alone BD player to become my new “primary” player, since my Blu-ray disc collection will now likely start expanding at a much larger rate.

I still plan to keep my HD-A1 for a while, since presumably Universal and Paramount will keep releasing on HD-DVD for the next year or so. Plus, I have several WB HD-DVD titles that may not be re-released on Blu-ray for some time, if at all. (Batman Begins, Forbidden Planet, etc.) Even so, I have already been looking through my video cabinet contemplating what to eBay and replace with Blu-ray.

In any case, this format war has been fascinating to watch; even as a “participant.” I wish, as consumers, we could have sent a clearer message to the studios that greater DRM and continued region coding is not in our best interest. I think greater HD-DVD support might have helped to send that message.

Regardless, it will now be interesting to see how the “mass adoption” scenario plays out, as Blu-ray emerges as the supposed “winner.” I don’t think adoption of even a single HD disc format will be nearly as widespread as many inside and outside the industry thinks it will.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I've owned blu-ray from the start, but I have nothing against hd-dvd. In fact, I was seriously (couple hours a day) trying to find a Samsung bd-up5000 combi player, a few of which were released the last 2 or 3 weeks nationally. I couldn't find one as they sold immediately. I guess now I will hold onto that money because I really don't see spending 800.00 anymore on the product. I'd rather get a Pioneer Elite or Denon blu-ray player, but I am now going to wait until I see what CES has to offer. I already have a PS3 and just love it, bought it for a movie machine, but what can I say, it has turned me into a gamer too. Games like Uncharted Drake's Furtune, that incorporate blu-ray technology into the game seriously looks and plays better than anything I have played on my brother's x-box. That's just my opinion, not trying to start another battle.

I think Toshiba did a very good job with the format. Heck I was ready to dive in with that combo player. The hd-dvd group excelled when they finalized all the specs right away, blu-ray is only now starting to experience these extra features, but I am sure some 2.0 players are inline at CES too. I am surprised so many people think the only reason a studio could possibly choose sides is money. Sure it's a big part of the game, but maybe several studios out there also liked one format more for their purposes.

Aside from what I have supported, I think Warner made the right choice. Clearly software sales for the last 64 (or more) weeks were won by blu-ray, sometimes there were very large percentage wins. Warner is a software company, those are the numbers important to them. I think they looked long and hard at what is also happening around the world. I also think they realized that PS3 people are indeed buying movies and that a percentage of those owners did buy the machine as their blu-ray player. It's the only way there could have been sales wins in software every week.

Times are changing, and the stand-alone player is definately not the only way consumers are going to be viewing movies anymore. Look at early CES producuct reports, they are full of products with multiple function that take less space in the consumer's home. I think the PS3 is one fine machine, one of the best piece of electronics I have ever owned, and I have owned many many stereo and video pieces.

What surprises me is some of these huge movie fans that say they will never ever buy a blu-ray player. If hd-dvd had gotten Warner, I sure would have bought a hd-dvd player (in fact I was already looking for one to be able to play Para and Univ movies). It seems no one would be getting hurt but the person refusing to buy in to the format that will probably win.

1.1 and 2.0 BD mean very little to me personally. Having over 1700 dvd's, I have watched maybe 5 commentaries completely. I have seen the internet extras on a friend's hd-dvd player and in my opinion, they were nothing to get excited about. For me it's the movie, I want a great 1080p transfer and lossless sound and I am very happy. One thing I have loved about blu is that every Fox, Disney, MGM, Columbia release has had one form is a lossless soundtrack. I always admired the support behind that from the BD companies. Warner only recently started using more lossless for blu.

To the hd-dvd owners, I am sorry this happened to you...I know how you feel. I felt the same way when Paramount went away from my chosen format. But I took some time and started shopping dual players or single hd-dvd players. I don't want to be left out of all the great new HD releases from any studio. IWhen Paramount went hd-dvd, I never went online with my anger (I was more upset not angry), and started cutting the other side down. One thing is for sure, I am not interested in downloading movies. I want them in physical format on my shelf with cover art.

I just want to say that which ever side had won, I am glad this may be closer to over. It's been a sad thing seeing so many angry people who just hate the other side so much, I remember before hd discs came out, we all got excited together and it was very pleasant to be in the forums. When the war started, so did my decrease in forum time because I can't believe how mean some people can be. I hope we can all get past this. If this is indeed the final step in the war, most hd-dvd players are great upconverters and those that bought the movies will have those movies. It isn't a major loss. We all knew when we went in that the format we purchased had a 50% chance of losing. I don't see that it is Warner's or Sony's or anyone else's fault.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Agreed, it doesn't matter now. But for the record I do believe you, Ron, and Cees, not only because you seem like level-headed, straightforward people, but because you have no reason to mislead the members of this forum.

New here, but it seems like a nice place.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

To each their own, but I find it interesting that you mention the pay off of Warner, Disney, and Fox but somehow fail to mention the pay off of Universal, Dreamworks, and Paramount.

I also disagree with the assertion that Warner was planning all along to "sell out" Blu-ray or HD DVD owners. Anyone who bought into either or both of these formats early had to be aware that one or the other would eventually fall by the wayside. When it comes to video format wars there is always going to be only one winner. I'm not as hardcore knowledgeable about HT as a lot on this board, but I have been in this hobby long enough to know that by buying into both formats I was also buying into the certainty that one of them would eventually become obsolete. Also nowhere did Warner state that they would indefinitely support both formats.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Well, I've taken the liberty of searching for a BD player and I've narrowed it down to the Panasonic DMP-BD30 which is just 1.1 compliant with no ethernet port. Amazon has it for $400, but I really don't want to spend over $250-$300 at this juncture for a half-baked BD player that isn't 2.0 compliant. I had considered the Sammy universal player but figured now I would just keep my HD-A2 for HD-DVD and just buy a separate BD player - it's actually cheaper this way than buying the Sammy combo player. The problem is that I've made a list of BD titles I want to purchase, and it's smaller than I expected: 17 (including 8 pre-orders - I have over 60 HD-DVD's - which is the main reason why I selected that format). I have Reservoir Dogs & The Prestige as HD-DVD imports and won't be re-purchasing these or any of my Warner HD-DVD's on BD. I am also interested in the original Rocky ($40 & no features!?) and Memento, but expect better editions will surface on BD at some point. In the meantime, I will continue to buy Paramount & Universal titles until they announce they're no longer supporting the HD-DVD format & will begin purchasing Warner titles exclusively for BD beginning with Bonnie & Clyde in March. Even if Uni/Paramount decide to switch quickly, there's no telling when we'll see the catalog titles from these studios surface on BD.

I do wonder however, what the HD-DVD studios will announce/do at CES this week?

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

It's more than $50, but the reason I bought the PS3 is because it's built on exactly the architecture/design paradigm you desribe; it may not offer every possible feature out-of-the-box, but it's ethernet allows it to be updated with ease and firmware updates are in the works for every available BD feature (inclduing DTS-HD MA decoding and 2.0 BD live web features).


Sounds like we're all shaking hands that regardless of what got us here, one thing the HT community can walk away with from all of this is a single HD format that might finally get some traction among a broader audience... and let's hope that competition among some of the manufacturers will kick some even more affordable BD players out soon to help speed that up. The format war was a catch 22, it slowed adoption among wary consumers but at the same time it drove down prices more quickly which made adoption more financially practical. Maybe now we can get a "win win" of the ground-work that's been laid.

The HD DVD camp/Toshiba did their job right when it came to fully featured hardware set at affordable prices. While their aggressive price strategy might have been too severe and caused most other manufacturers to back off, with time hopefully the BD camp can catch up while maintaining some profitability to promote hardware developers to design/release gear. I know there will be a Chinese-made BD player announced at CES so maybe consumers will get their hands on affordable BD gear sooner than later. Now if the BDA would get their butt in gear with 2.0-profile players, we'd really have something to talk about.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

From a newbie here, all of us are quite honored by those remarks.

I promise all of you that we won't confirm anything like this
unless we are pretty damn certain that the information is correct.

We have nothing to gain by misleading any of you. We just don't
want anyone to be mislead by biased information that may is posted
elsewhere.

As I said, all of this was about money from beginning to end. Some
will blame the HD-DVD and Microsoft camp for being the biggest
criminals in this entire ordeal, but money was being waved from the
other side as well.

As David just pointed out above, thankfully we have finally gotten to
a point where we can shake hands and move forward.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Unfortunately Sony started the pay-off mentality. MGM, Fox, and Disney were bluray exclusive long before Universal and Paramount. Payoffs certainly
explain why Disney went blu-ray only. If I remember correctly, Disney was one
of the co-developers of hd-dvd.

These negotiations did not start in the last few days. For all the parties involved, these talks had to be going on for a few months. This would take it right into the time where Warner was pledging support for both blu-ray and hd-dvd. They should have been honest and put out a release about going exclusive to one side or the other.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

What surprises me most is that so many people are offended that this comes down to money and/or backroom deals. Do people think companies and studios exist to create good will and peace on earth? They they are in business to make money and many times you have to spend money to make it. Do people think this type of dealing is unique to the HD format war? I hope they're not that naive.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I think downloads will replace rentals, but nothing more.

Doug

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Ron,

So by reading your comments it sounded like Toshiba believed it had this all in the bag leading up to ces. My question is if they new in advance that all the blocks came tumbling down, or did everyone go behind Toshiba's back and Toshiba had no idea??

anyways, this was posted from someone who was supposed to be in the know at avs..... Can you tell me if this has any validity to it?

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I think you are over estimating the power of a single format. There might be a little bump of people who were waiting to jump into HD, but frankly what is holding back the general public is the lack of an HDTV. Its going to be a long slow process of blu-ray taking over from DVD because most people have no way of taking advantage of the improved quality.

Doug

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Plus, the differences between DVD and HDM, and between VHS and DVD are just not as striking. I think this whole changeover process may be very slow as well.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

"There might be a little bump of people who were waiting to jump into HD, but frankly what is holding back the general public is the lack of an HDTV. "

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

I just don't get this tired old argument. The difference between DVD and HDM seemed pretty striking to me. I watched ICE AGE 2: THE MELTDOWN on BD. Then I watched ICE AGE on DVD and the difference was night and day.

I have noticed a big difference on every HD/DVD comparison that I have looked at. I know some of my co-workers told me that they didn't think the difference was that great. All I told them was that they weren't watching enough HD material. The difference becomes more and more apparent once your eyes get used to it.

No more green felt pens

Well shoot - does this mean that the "tweakers" (you know who I mean) no longer have to run a green felt pen around the circumference of their discs to get improved sound and picture quality?

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

We should expect in the next month or so sales for Blu-Ray titles probably increasing 50% or so mainly due to dual-format owners stopping their purchase of HD-DVD titles and purchasing their titles only in BD. Plus there'll be a percentage of HD-DVD-only owners who'll wind up buying a BD player.

There'll be those who stated it's due to all the fence-sitters finally jumping aboard, but I think it'll represent only a small portion of that increase.

Over the next year BD sales will continue to have extremely small numbers.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

But I wouldn't consider you the average consumer.

HD-DVD had a display demo on the concourse of where I work in downtown Toronto about a month ago or so. They had 2 of the exact same HDTVs sitting side by side, both sides were playing the same Harry Potter movie but one side was the DVD and the other was HD-DVD.

I decided to stop and watch and guage people's reactions. I noticed the difference, however I've heard countless number of people stating that they didn't see a difference. Of the few people that said they did notice a difference, some of them incorrectly pointed to the DVD presentation as the HD version stating "ooohhh, that looks so much better".

Remember, we're talking about people who hook up their DVD players to their HDTVs using composite and thinks it looks amazing. The same people who think 128bit MP3 sounds as good as CD and think the iPod's earbuds are great.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Well I disagree there. I think the difference between HD and SD is MUCH more pronounced than the difference between SD and VHS.

Doug

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Okay here is my take on the fall out from Warner's choice.

I read on AVS that (and this is anecdotal) Someone did a search of blu-ray players, and since the Warner announcement, the price of the average stand alone blu-ray player has gone up $100.

I think the fall out of blu-ray winning is that HD optical media is now going to be a niche format. BOGO free sales are a thing of the past. The price of a movie is going to creep back up to around $30 or more. And the price of players is going to stay above $300 for a low end player.

There is no longer an incentive for blu-ray to compete. As a result blu-ray will just be a format for the high end consumer and it will never reach the mass market.

Oh yes one format is surely a good thing for the consumer!

Doug

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

[quote=Ray Chuang]By the way, here's a "wild guess" of mine: Toshiba will effectively "throw in the towel" by the middle of this summer and will offer a lower-cost combo player that will play Blu-Ray discs (under the Profile 1.1 spec) and HD-DVD discs at least for one year until everybody switches over to Blu-Ray discs. QUOTE]

Ray, I agree with you that Toshiba will be forced to make a low cost combo player to continue to have an HD presence. No doubt vendors are already shifting their future orders for players and movies. I bet the Blu-ray group may even eliminate the royalties for Toshiba to help take the Blu pill.

Retail outlets will force acceleration to switch to one format. My prediction is that stores will only carry one format for Warner Brothers. I think it will happen soon. By the beginning of February, you will see a different look at your local stores. At my local best buy the HD DVD player was turned off. This may have nothing to do with the announcement, but no one seemed to care. I think the HD-DVD players will move to the upscale DVD section of the store to still sell the player.

My parents are now ready to buy a player. They are one of the people on the sidelines waiting to see what happens. So Warner helped them make a decision.

I hope the HD-DVD camp does not try to keep the format going and fight. The best thing for the consumer is for the HD-DVD supporters to push Blu-ray into being an even better format. I know Warner will help do that. Hopefully Paramount and Universal join the party.

As for Microsoft there is no reason they could not write software to support Blu-Ray and test software. There are a lot of great people on the staff. It will be interesting to see what they decide to do. While they want to push downloading, it will not become mainstrem in the next 5-7 years. Look at CDs. How many of you still buy them? I know I do.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

Some good stuff to comment on....


Listen, I have to be careful because I can't speak for either side.
All I can tell you is EXACTLY what the case was as explained
to me.

A day or two before the Warner decision, there was an "oral agreement"
with Toshiba that Fox would go HD-DVD alongside Warner. It was
all in the cards that HD-DVD was going to be the chosen format.

I need to be careful what I say concerning my own speculation
as to what happened after that....

Toshiba was completely firm on the agreement and that they had
succeeded. Within a day, Fox suddenly decided to stay Blu-ray and
that prompted Warner to go Blu as the studio didn't want to go HD-DVD
exclusively by itself.

So, yes, what the AVS insiders are reporting are 100% accurate as to
what was told to me. There's a few other details to this story that may
eventually arise, but that's basically word-for-word what we knew PRIOR
to the announcement on Friday.

As far as legal fallout is concerned? Well, perhaps there will be. Who
knows.



Not surprising.

That format was was the best thing that ever happened to us.
If not for the competition, there would be no sub $200 HD-DVD
players and no sub $400 Blu-ray players.

That's right! No BOGO sales, either. Those BOGO sales were
designed to spike weekly sales numbers in an effort to show
increased buying activity towards a particular format.

My personal speculation is that it's all over!

This is why as much as I disliked having to decide between two
formats, I wasn't personally in a hurry to see a victor. This is
the very first time the early adopters got a price break on anything.
The first time we weren't taken advantage of because we were
the first on line for product. And, quite frankly, since it was the
corporations that started this damn war in the first place, I never
felt badly about any of them losing so much money in an effort
to undercut each other.

Re: BREAKING NEWS!! Warner Brothers is now Blu-ray Exclusive

OK. And you extrapolate all that based on one post from AVS, that you admit is anecdotal. Your scenario could end up occurring, but I doubt it. The enormous amounts of money being tossed out by these companies has to be recouped. They still have major competition in the form of DVD. If they start pushing up the prices then they stand to lose a lot of money because there will be no incentive for the average consumer to switch.

If they want to have any chance of getting back some of the money they are burning then they have to mainstream HD. The only way they are going to do that is to make it competitive with SD DVD. As I see it, prices are going to have to come down, not go up, if they want to have any chance of getting people to switch. I still think there will be a concerted push to bring down the cost of HD displays even faster than they have been presently dropping. I also think that there will be a lot more package deals being made available to encourage a faster absorption of HD sets.

Of course, my extrapolations are based on no more evidence than yours. Either scenario could occur.

Everybody is talking like HD being a "niche" would be a bad thing, and in some respects it is since it media prices would likely remain high and breadth of film releases would be thinner; however, other aspects of niche status wouldn't be so bad. For one thing they would have to cater to a consumer block that wouldn't take kindly to poor audio and video transfers. The releases would have to cater more to the tastes of film collectors than casual viewers. If being niche means that I won't have to look at any car commercials on my discs then bring it on.