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Why the Black Bars?

#1
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1/4/08 at 12:33pm
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Why do so many movies (BD or HD) have black bars at the top and bottom? I want my whole TV used, not just the middle section. I understand they want to provide the original theatrical aspect ratio, but I want a 1080p movie, not 3/4 of that.
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#2
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1/4/08 at 12:41pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

So.... you'd like the sides of the film chopped off to fit your TV? How is this any different from pan-and-scan? You may want to read the HTF mission statement:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/rules.php
They're round, they're shiny...
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#3
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1/4/08 at 12:53pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
Why do so many movies (BD or HD) have black bars at the top and bottom? I want my whole TV used, not just the middle section. I understand they want to provide the original theatrical aspect ratio, but I want a 1080p movie, not 3/4 of that.
You've answered your own question--original aspect ratio. With OAR, you are getting the WHOLE movie, though you are not using your whole screen. If the image is manipulated (either by you with player/display settings or the studio when they transfer the film to disc), then you may get to use the whole screen, but you will no longer get to see the WHOLE movie. While it appears that the majority of the population favours your position (which explains "full screen" editions of SD DVDs--something I personally wish had never happened, but there it is), you'll find that on dedicated fora like this one, the reverse is true. Personally, I prefer the WHOLE movie, even if I don't use the whole screen. When OAR first became reasonably accessible, it took me a few movies to get used to it but it wasn't long before I stopped noticing the "bars" and just watched the movie. If TV stations had not cropped movies from the beginning, then no one would complain about it because everyone would understand that movies (those made after the early 50s, anyway), generally speaking, are not the same as TV programmes. But it didn't work out that way. Thankfully, OAR is readily available today.

You have a variety of ways of coping with the situation--there are many settings available in your player and/or display that will allow you to "fill the screen". What I do NOT want to see is public pressure to bastardize OAR releases with "full screen" HDM. Let the individuals decide on their own gear rather than taking away OAR from those of us who want it.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#4
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1/4/08 at 12:58pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

You seem to be making a flawed assumption that 1080p means "fill my TV screen" aspect ratio. In fact, 1080p is the resolution output by your HD DVD or BD machine and received and reproduced by your TV. Aspect ratio is the solely dependent on the type of film and framing used by the filmmaker.

I believe standard 35mm film is 1.78:1 but can be framed such that it is a wider field than that. 70mm is 2.25:1 (or something like that) and again can be framed to be even wider.

Thus, even with a widescreen TV (1.78:1) you are going to get black bars on some presentations because not all films are framed to 1:78:1 aspect ratio.

I suppose at some point some marketing genius will create the "full screen" HD DVD or BD that crops anything wider than 1:78 to 1 back to 1:78:1 so that people who don't like black bars can use all the space provided by their new TV. You may also be able to zoom the picture to get rid of the black bars yourself. However, I don't think you will find much sympathy from people on this forum about your black bar complaint.

Dave
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#5
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1/4/08 at 1:34pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Some folks believe that HD = 1.78 and that's wrong. Nothing has changed since DVD. HD/BR is nothing new.
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#6
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1/4/08 at 2:05pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Someone used their first post - and created a whole new thread - to ask that?
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#7
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1/4/08 at 2:43pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave>h
You seem to be making a flawed assumption that 1080p means "fill my TV screen" aspect ratio. In fact, 1080p is the resolution output by your HD DVD or BD machine and received and reproduced by your TV. Aspect ratio is the solely dependent on the type of film and framing used by the filmmaker.

I believe standard 35mm film is 1.78:1 but can be framed such that it is a wider field than that. 70mm is 2.25:1 (or something like that) and again can be framed to be even wider.

Thus, even with a widescreen TV (1.78:1) you are going to get black bars on some presentations because not all films are framed to 1:78:1 aspect ratio.

I suppose at some point some marketing genius will create the "full screen" HD DVD or BD that crops anything wider than 1:78 to 1 back to 1:78:1 so that people who don't like black bars can use all the space provided by their new TV. You may also be able to zoom the picture to get rid of the black bars yourself. However, I don't think you will find much sympathy from people on this forum about your black bar complaint.

Dave

35mm academy aperture is actually 1.37:1. It has been since the advent of sound. Since about 1954 however some filmmakers have cropped the top and bottom of this frame to get the 1.66:1 or 1.85:1, 1.85 being most popular in America and 1.66 being popular in Europe. 70mm as formulated by Todd A/O was 2.20:1, but could be wider with for instance MGM Camera 65 AKA Ultra Panavision which I believe was 2.55:1, but could be as wide as 2.76:1.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#8
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1/4/08 at 6:08pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob McCraw
Someone used their first post - and created a whole new thread - to ask that?

My thought exactly though I didn't want to be the first to mention that.

_Man_

Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".

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#9
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1/4/08 at 9:58pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

welcome to the HTF gus.\but...

this just isnt the place to suggest cropping movies to fill your screen.
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#10
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1/5/08 at 1:21pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Gus, welcome. In short, not all movies are created with the 16:9 aspect ratio that your TV has. Typically, in order to see the full frame of a movie, the black bars are necessary. To get rid of the black bars, you would have to zoom in, but that would cut off portions of the sides of the movie. (blech) If this doesn't make sense, let me know when you reply and I will try to find some links that explain with pictures.
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#11
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1/5/08 at 1:42pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Beam
So.... you'd like the sides of the film chopped off to fit your TV? How is this any different from pan-and-scan? You may want to read the HTF mission statement:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/rules.php
It's been awhile since I read that mission statement. I think it's about time for an update to the part about DVD being the pinnacle of quality, etc.

As to the OAR issue, please see this information to be educated on the subject. Cropping to 1.78:1 would be just as wrong as cropping to 1.33:1.

It's the same as it ever was, DVD or HD. If your 16:9 screen is filled vertically, with no black bars, on a movie with an OAR greater than 1.78:1 (or thereabouts due to overscan), then you are being cheated. I personally love seeing those top and bottom bars on a 2:35:1 movie. Very theatrical, very appropriate. I view the frame of the movie as intended, not the arbitrary boundaries of my TV screen.
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#12
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1/5/08 at 4:26pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Here's another very helpful link:

High-Def FAQ: Why Don't the Black Bars Go Away? | High-Def Digest
http://www.invelos.com/DVDCollection.aspx/Ray_Rogers
Non-Supporter of Tai Seng, DNR/EE, DRM, Digital Copy and The Digital Bits.
Errol Flynn films wanted as boxsets and not released in the "Archives"!
Zero Interest in all things Harry Potter.
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#13
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1/5/08 at 4:52pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

HD panels are 16x9 so the only aspect ratio that will take the whole screen is 1.85:1. Most HD DVD/Blu-Ray discs are 2.39:1 or 2.40:1 so yes they are a little bit wider and yes you will have black bars on the top and bottom but at least you are experiencing the film as it was intended to be seen. If you were to have a 2.39:1 film fit the entire screen then the picture would either have to be stretched and distorted or you would not see the left and right side.
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#14
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1/5/08 at 7:24pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel.H
HD panels are 16x9 so the only aspect ratio that will take the whole screen is 1.85:1. Most HD DVD/Blu-Ray discs are 2.39:1 or 2.40:1 so yes they are a little bit wider and yes you will have black bars on the top and bottom but at least you are experiencing the film as it was intended to be seen. If you were to have a 2.39:1 film fit the entire screen then the picture would either have to be stretched and distorted or you would not see the left and right side.

1.85:1 does not fill the 16x9 screen. The aspect ratio of HDTV is 1.78:1, slightly narrower than a film shot at 1.85:1. A 1.85:1 properly presented on HDTV will have very small, but defiantly there, black bars at the top and bottom.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#15
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1/5/08 at 8:03pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

true but many tvs have overscan so no one sees the small bars on the top for 1.85 or the small bars on the side for 1.66:1 movies.
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#16
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1/5/08 at 8:57pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
Why do so many movies (BD or HD) have black bars at the top and bottom? I want my whole TV used, not just the middle section. I understand they want to provide the original theatrical aspect ratio, but I want a 1080p movie, not 3/4 of that.



A time traveller from 1996!
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#17
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1/6/08 at 1:49am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike kaminski


A time traveller from 1996!

Indeed.

Gusin, films has different aspect ratios. 4:3 (1.33:1), 1.66:1, 1.78:1, 1.85:1, 2:35:1..

With 16:9-TV (1.78:1), you´ve always black bars somewhere, IF the film has any other aspect ratio than 1.78:1. Even 1.85:1-films has a minor black bars on the top and on the bottom (often not visible due the overscan of the TV, though).

In another words; Get used to the "black bars". They´re more or less here to stay if you want to enjoy the Original Aspect Ratio. And that should always be the main priority.

(with SD DVDs you also have the "Anamorphic" vs "non-Anamorphic"-issues, but not with HD-films anymore)

Rewind - DVDcompare/Site Administrator
*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#18
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1/6/08 at 2:00am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Gus, give yourself time to get used to them. What they give you is well worth what not having them would take away. If you really can't stand them try using your tv or dvd players ZOOM function. That's if filling the screen is your sole priority. As time goes by your expectations will be more demanding as far OAR. Take Care.

" I think it's time we go to plan B". "What's plan B?" "That's the one where we don't do something stupid".

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#19
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1/6/08 at 5:22am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy evans
If you really can't stand them try using your tv or dvd players ZOOM function. That's if filling the screen is your sole priority.

Sorry Troy, but that is one bad advice!

By "zooming", you´ll lose all the intended compositions/framing and make the film literally unwatchable. Let alone the fact that with this "zooming", you´ll lose resolution - one of the major advantages that you have with 1080p HD and one of the reasons why you probably bought the HD-player in the first place.

So: Don´t "zoom". Enjoy the OAR, whether it has some black bars or not. You´ll get used to them. At least I don´t even notice them anymore.

Rewind - DVDcompare/Site Administrator
*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#20
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1/6/08 at 8:23am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Okay, okay, sorry, I didn't mean to offend the purists here.
My point was severalfold:
One, if a movie has the black bars on the top and bottom, then you are not getting a full 1080 (or 720, if that's all your TV is capable of, as is mine) lines of picture. I'm not sure of the actual number, but the black bars take up maybe 1/5 of the total screen. Now, it still looks great, but I prefer when the whole TV screen is used, but I guess that's just me...

The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.

But thanks, that's a lot of (mostly informative, except for the people bashing my first naive post) really good answers!

I promise not to ask any more dumb questions...
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#21
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1/6/08 at 8:46am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio?
Theatrical movies are NOT all the "same ratio". They VARY in ratio (usually either 1.85:1 or 2.35:1). If TVs were made with a 2.35:1 ratio, you'd be complaining about the SIDE "black bars" that would be needed to accommodate the 1.85:1 ratio (and you'd probably get apopleptic over the size of the side bars needed for 1.37:1 movies).

You really need to get over your problem with the "black bars" and enjoy movies in their OAR.
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#22
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1/6/08 at 8:52am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.

I promise not to ask any more dumb questions...

Your questions aren't dumb, in my opinion.

If they had made the new TVs match a 2.35:1 ratio there would still be black bars for 1.85:1, only they would be on the left and right sides of the screen. So no matter what the shape of the TV there will always be cases in which black bars will appear somewhere if the presentation is true to the original aspect ratio.
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#23
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1/6/08 at 9:30am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.

Look, let´s say that we have a "theater movie" that´s 2.35:1 (as many are). Let´s also say that there would be a TV-set with the same 2.35.1-ratio (which won´t happen). They would "match" (no black bars).

Now, let´s say that we have a "theater movie" that´s 1.85.1 (as many are). Let´s continue to say that you still have that 2.35.1 TV-screen. This time you would have black bars with that 1.85.1 film.

Even with (hypothetical) 2.35:1 TV you can´t really win. With 4:3/1.85:1-films you would still have those black bars..

My point is, that:

a) There are movies in different aspect ratios. And always will be (at least 1.78.1/1.85:1 and 2.35.1/2.40:1). Further more, there are zillion of older movies that are 4:3 (and will always be 4:3). HD-formats weren´t just created for the "new films".

b) Widescreen TV-set has the fixed aspect ratio of 1.78:1.

=

Aspect ratios won´t always "match" the TV-set.

=

Black bars.

Short answer to your questions is, that it´s best just to get used to those black bars. They´re not fully going anywhere, even if the 2.35:1-TV would be suddenly created..

Perhaps in your case the projector would help?

Rewind - DVDcompare/Site Administrator
*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#24
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1/6/08 at 10:29am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.

Money. At the time HDTV aspect ratios were being set, the consumer electronics companies balked at an 1.85 aspect ratio because the cost of manufacturing at that ratio was very high and not worth the incremental benefits. You gotta remember that the standard was set at a time when CRT was the dominant display technology and it was very costly to manufacture glass at a 1.85 aspect ratio. The 16x9/1.78 ratio was close enough but also cheaper to make. I seem to remember the Directors Guild pushed for a 1.85 aspect ratio but obviously, it didn't work out that way. Cost is also the reason why widescreen computer monitors are ANOTHER, differing aspect ratio, 16x10/1.6.
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#25
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1/6/08 at 11:43am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
true but many tvs have overscan so no one sees the small bars on the top for 1.85 or the small bars on the side for 1.66:1 movies.

Yes but then you would have the same problem, losing some small parts of the original image.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#26
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1/6/08 at 11:51am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.
Keep in mind that movies aren't in a standard aspect ratio, even in the theatre. Haven't you ever been at the theatre noticed the matting (border) being moved with motors between the trailers and the start of the movie? It caught me off guard the first time I saw that.
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#27
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1/6/08 at 11:56am
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GusinCA
Okay, okay, sorry, I didn't mean to offend the purists here.
My point was severalfold:
One, if a movie has the black bars on the top and bottom, then you are not getting a full 1080 (or 720, if that's all your TV is capable of, as is mine) lines of picture. I'm not sure of the actual number, but the black bars take up maybe 1/5 of the total screen. Now, it still looks great, but I prefer when the whole TV screen is used, but I guess that's just me...

The second point is, if theater movies are wider, then why aren't HD TV's in that same ratio? I guess I just wish that they had made the TV's a little wider to match the movies, or the movies narrower.

But thanks, that's a lot of (mostly informative, except for the people bashing my first naive post) really good answers!

I promise not to ask any more dumb questions...

Two things.

First of all you actually aren't getting the full 1080 resolution, but you are getting the full 1920 resolution because that is the horizontal number and a letterboxed images stretches to the edges of the screen.

Secondly 1.74:1 was chosen for HDTV because at the time the specs were settled on, TV makers didn't think they could produce a glass tube any wider than that and have them not break all the time. You have to understand that HDTV specs were designed before the advent of flat panel TVs.

Also if even if they used the widest format in movies for the basis of HDTV 2.35:1 (I know its not the widest but it is for 99% of movies) Then you would have to have black bars on the sides of the image for films that were shot 1.85:1 and 1.37:1. Any way you look at it, there are going to be black bars so that you can see the whole originally photographed image. Get used to it.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#28
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1/6/08 at 12:00pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth T
Keep in mind that movies aren't in a standard aspect ratio, even in the theatre. Haven't you ever been at the theatre noticed the matting (border) being moved with motors between the trailers and the start of the movie? It caught me off guard the first time I saw that.

Seth is exactly right. In a movie theater they typically have a screen that is 2.35:1. But when they show a film that is 1.85:1, they mask off the sides of the screen with black material. Your TV does basically the same thing on the top and bottom of the frame for a wide screen movie, and on the sides for a 1.37:1 movie.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#29
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1/6/08 at 12:01pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

I was doing some searching and stumbled across the glossary on Joe Kane's site, which has an entry on aspect ratio that was obviously written when the HD aspect ratio was still undecided. The entry says in part that "[t]he resolution of current display technology would suggest that 1.78 is the upper limit of our current capability," presumably referring to CRT displays, which is why HDTV eventually settled on 1.78, not 1.85 or even wider. The glossary also mentions that the Directors Guild apparently wanted to explore making 2:1 the aspect ratio for HDTV. Interesting although even it had been economically feasible, it may have been a solution that pleased no one since every movie would display black bars, either on the sides or top and bottom. The only programming that would fill the full screen would have been those produced specifically for HDTV.

Here's the link to the glossary entry if you want to read it:

Joe Kane Productions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth T
Keep in mind that movies aren't in a standard aspect ratio, even in the theatre. Haven't you ever been at the theatre noticed the matting (border) being moved with motors between the trailers and the start of the movie? It caught me off guard the first time I saw that.

I remember watching Robert Redford's The Horse Whisperer in the theatre and the movie starts in an 1.85 aspect ratio when it's set in New York City but then changes to 2.35 when it moves to the open country. The screen changed shape DURING the movie; the first and only time I've ever seen that.
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#30
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1/6/08 at 12:08pm
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Re: Why the Black Bars?

arent the bars NOT part of the resolution of the image.
in other words isnt the full 1080 or 720 or 480 lines enclosed only in the produced image of a 16x9 enhanced dvd.

i know someone will understand what i mean by that clunky description.


"
I remember watching Robert Redford's The Horse Whisperer in the theatre and the movie starts in an 1.85 aspect ratio when it's set in New York City but then changes to 2.35 when it moves to the open country. The screen changed shape DURING the movie; the first and only time I've ever seen that."
it has been done other times.

Disney's Brother Bear is another.
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