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dye transfer in a transfer

#1
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12/27/07 at 12:44pm
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greetings

Here is a question out of curiosity

Can anyone think of any kind of material , be it a trailer, or whatever, present at some DVD edition that had been transfered from a dye transfer technicolor print.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't look that great compared to a regular transfer, but then, I assume it would have s slight resemblance to an old Kodachrome scan , which can be quite a unique look in itself. (crushed blacks and blocked up, but pleasant colors)

I have one such suspect, but I'm not sure.
The trailer on The Searchers original DVD edition (not the new one)
looks like it could be from a dye transfer print, but I'm not sure. It does have a lot of colored scratches , but that simply suggests that it was at some stage combined from separations, could be also a normal color dupe from separations with cranked up colors. But either way it's a pretty bad transfer.

I have a couple of old Hammer horror films on DVD, which were originally printed in imbibition process, but I'm not sure if their trailers are eastmancolor or IB prints (though some kind of prints are in question, judging by the over-the-top contrast and damage)

Well, any kind of material that you can think of, that is available on SD DVD, that telecined fromIB technicolor print, and is a half decent transfer (not from some old tape transfer, but done fresh for the DVD) , please let me
know I'm curious and would like to take a look
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#2
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12/27/07 at 12:50pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Apocalypse Now Redux I am pretty sure is taken from a dye transfer print. It certainly looks like one to me.
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#3
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12/27/07 at 1:10pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

hmm... what makes you say that?

it looks like a normal transfer to me
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#4
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12/27/07 at 2:02pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Dye transfer prints look gorgeous when projected. I own a few myself in 16mm and 35mm. But they are unsuitable for telecine. However, I scanned in a frame of a transfer from a 35mm cartoon on a Canon flatbed scanner, and I was able to adjust the contrast to make it look acceptable.

Technicolor did make low-contrast dye transfer prints for TV film chains in the 1960s but there were very few takers. The Wonderful World of Disney used it from 1961 to 1974 (when the dye transfer line was shut down in the USA) but I do not know of any other shows that did. Most shows didn't even make panchromatic separations of the negatives.

Most transfers of films are taken from pre-print materials: Interpositives, Internegatives, CRIs (Color Reversal Intermediates), or in some cases the original camera negative or a scan of one. Prints are only used when nothing else exists or can be accessed.

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#5
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12/27/07 at 2:18pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar-N
hmm... what makes you say that?

it looks like a normal transfer to me

The saturation and grain structure looks similar to dye-transfer. Some people say dye-transfer can't be scanned or telecined because its too dense but I've seen it done. AN could just be a nice-looking Interpositive (somehow I get the impression that its not directly from the negative) but I thought I read somewhere that the film was transfered from a dye-transfer master.
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#6
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12/27/07 at 2:49pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

The problem with transferring IB prints is that the printing process in itself is an optical one and thus, there is contrast built into the image that can get "hot" in transfers (eg. blasting out of highlights, clogging of shadow details). That's generally why low-contrast CRIs or Fine Grains are used, aside from sharpness issues.

With HD transfers being the more prevalent option for telecine these days, though, a good print will yield a good transfer, but it's always preferable to go to an element when you can.

Trailers are usually taken from original projection prints because most studios do not retain the negatives for older trailers that were made out-of-house. You''ll often see a lot of IB, re-timed Eastman, etc.

Many outfits, including Hammer, printed their trailers in Technicolor, even if the feature wasn't going to be printed as such, as the number of trailers often way outnumbered the number of feature prints, and the higher number of prints you made in Technicolor, the more economic the price was. Films such as BLOOD OF THE VAMPIRE, DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, THE BLOB, etc., all had Technicolor trailers, even in the films themselves were primarily Eastman prints.

-J. Theakston

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#7
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12/27/07 at 2:54pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
Dye transfer prints look gorgeous when projected. I own a few myself in 16mm and 35mm. But they are unsuitable for telecine. However, I scanned in a frame of a transfer from a 35mm cartoon on a Canon flatbed scanner, and I was able to adjust the contrast to make it look acceptable.

Technicolor did make low-contrast dye transfer prints for TV film chains in the 1960s but there were very few takers. The Wonderful World of Disney used it from 1961 to 1974 (when the dye transfer line was shut down in the USA) but I do not know of any other shows that did. Most shows didn't even make panchromatic separations of the negatives.

Most transfers of films are taken from pre-print materials: Interpositives, Internegatives, CRIs (Color Reversal Intermediates), or in some cases the original camera negative or a scan of one. Prints are only used when nothing else exists or can be accessed.


yes. I know that, but sometimes old trailers get scanned from prints.
I was just hoping someone knows of such a trailer scanned from an IB print.

My the way, I am a flatbed-user myself (for 35mm and 120 film),
and flatbeds are terrible for transparencies due to limited dynamic range.
A dedicated film scanner would perform much better.
If you want to see how good an IB print can look when scanned, find a drum scan service in your town and send it there. It should look more acceptable, though probably still more contrasty than your typical ektachrome slide.
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#8
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12/27/07 at 2:55pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike kaminski
The saturation and grain structure looks similar to dye-transfer. Some people say dye-transfer can't be scanned or telecined because its too dense but I've seen it done. AN could just be a nice-looking Interpositive (somehow I get the impression that its not directly from the negative) but I thought I read somewhere that the film was transfered from a dye-transfer master.

Well, a DVD certainly is no medium for examining grain structure. Unless we are talking about super8, but even then it screws up the grain.

Saturation? A push of a button.
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#9
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12/27/07 at 2:59pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston
The problem with transferring IB prints is that the printing process in itself is an optical one and thus, there is contrast built into the image that can get "hot" in transfers (eg. blasting out of highlights, clogging of shadow details). That's generally why low-contrast CRIs or Fine Grains are used, aside from sharpness issues.

With HD transfers being the more prevalent option for telecine these days, though, a good print will yield a good transfer, but it's always preferable to go to an element when you can.

Trailers are usually taken from original projection prints because most studios do not retain the negatives for older trailers that were made out-of-house. You''ll often see a lot of IB, re-timed Eastman, etc.

Many outfits, including Hammer, printed their trailers in Technicolor, even if the feature wasn't going to be printed as such, as the number of trailers often way outnumbered the number of feature prints, and the higher number of prints you made in Technicolor, the more economic the price was. Films such as BLOOD OF THE VAMPIRE, DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, THE BLOB, etc., all had Technicolor trailers, even in the films themselves were primarily Eastman prints.


thanks for the info:

I have "Horror of Dracula", "Terror of Frankenstein" "The Mummy" (and two more, though I lost track) on DVD.
Do these DVD's have dye transfer trailers?

By the way, since you are so sure about "many" trailers being transfered from IB prints, could you please, throw as much DVD's at me that you know contain such trailers as you can think of in one post?

thanks
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#10
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12/27/07 at 10:22pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar-N
I have "Horror of Dracula", "Terror of Frankenstein" "The Mummy" (and two more, though I lost track) on DVD.
Do these DVD's have dye transfer trailers?

HORROR OF DRACULA and THE MUMMY were Technicolor in everything-- US and UK prints, trailers too. CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (as I think you were referring) was Eastman print on both sides of the sea, and one of the rare instances of Eastman trailer, as I recall.

I don't know what any of these DVDs used as materials for trailers, so I couldn't say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar-N
By the way, since you are so sure about "many" trailers being transfered from IB prints, could you please, throw as much DVD's at me that you know contain such trailers as you can think of in one post? thanks

Geez... I'd have to go back and look for a case by case basis, but if you want to see what IB looks like transferred, check out Sabucat's FESTIVAL OF 3-D FILM TRAILERS DVD, which has a number of Tech prints utilized as sources (in various conditions, which will give you an idea of the best/worst aspects of such transfers)

-J. Theakston

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#11
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12/27/07 at 11:07pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar-N
yes. I know that, but sometimes old trailers get scanned from prints.
I was just hoping someone knows of such a trailer scanned from an IB print.

My the way, I am a flatbed-user myself (for 35mm and 120 film),
and flatbeds are terrible for transparencies due to limited dynamic range.
A dedicated film scanner would perform much better.
If you want to see how good an IB print can look when scanned, find a drum scan service in your town and send it there. It should look more acceptable, though probably still more contrasty than your typical ektachrome slide.

I use a filmstrip attachment for the flatbed. I would like a dedicated film scanner (I am thinking about a way to make a homebrew multi-format movie film scanner) but it is not high on my priority list right now. Maybe in the future.

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

My DVD List at DVD Aficionado, Now Featuring Blu-Ray

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#12
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12/28/07 at 12:18am
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Theakston
HORROR OF DRACULA and THE MUMMY were Technicolor in everything-- US and UK prints, trailers too. CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN (as I think you were referring) was Eastman print on both sides of the sea, and one of the rare instances of Eastman trailer, as I recall.

I don't know what any of these DVDs used as materials for trailers, so I couldn't say.



Geez... I'd have to go back and look for a case by case basis, but if you want to see what IB looks like transferred, check out Sabucat's FESTIVAL OF 3-D FILM TRAILERS DVD, which has a number of Tech prints utilized as sources (in various conditions, which will give you an idea of the best/worst aspects of such transfers)

hm, it ships in US only. That's two-weeks for me just to get it here by regular mail. And I don't know what I'm buying really, haven't seen any of it.
So, could you throw me a couple of screenshots of the best cases of color representation on the disc (where it gets decent) ?

p.s. and yes sorry, that's "Curse of Frankenstein" , I confuse those old Hammer titles so easily, horror, terror, curse, blood... BY the way, I also have "Taste the blood of dracula", any ideas if the trailers for that movie was printed in dye transfer or eastman?
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#13
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12/28/07 at 2:37pm
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

I think you can order direct from Sabucat (www.sabucat.com). If you like vintage trailers, this is prime stuff, all transferred professionally. When I dig my copy out I will post a couple of caps.

TASTE was Technicolor.

-J. Theakston

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#14
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12/29/07 at 6:26am
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Re: dye transfer in a transfer

Actually they have a whole bunch of old color (technicolor) trailers posted at archive.org in DVD quality for download (I'm downloading one 200+Mb trailer right now) as a kind of a preview of the 60 000 others they have.

Here is a link:

Internet Archive Search: (collection:sabucat_trailers OR mediatype:sabucat_trailers) AND -mediatype:collection

There are 103 trailers there, a lot of them in color.
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