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Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

#1
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Back in early October my SP4805 blew up, the color wheel flew apart inside and I was upset to say the least and was resolved to get myself a new projector ASAP.

Well, certain events have caused me pause and prompted me to rethink things.

I spent Thanksgiving with some friends and we went to Buffalo NY and stayed with her brother at his house and he had just got a brand new 56" RP HDTV and I was amazed at how spectacular the image was on it. So I began to talk to my best friend about my desire to have my HT back up and running and how I was now seriously thinking about throwing in the towel on front projection.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the huge image however it's everything else that i've grown just tired of, buying new lamps for $350.00 a pop, color wheel whines and the fear that the lamp will blow prematurely or that my color wheel can come apart, plus the psychological aspect knowing that my entire HT depends on a tiny shaft of light that burns at an incredible temperature working properly...I simply can't do it anymore, guys.

After seeing his TV at work I was suddenly hit with an overwhelming urge to buy a new large screen HDTV that I can install and keep running for many years without the need for lamps or the worry of color wheel issues. So I decided that i'm abandoning FP after the first of the year and am going to put my efforts into buying at least a 60" RP (have my reasons for settling on RP, natural looking images being at the front of the list, never cared for plasmas).

So, guys, I leave you to your large screens and projectors, i'll be taking a hit in size, from 103" to 60" but I feel good about this, no more headaches to deal with and a sparkling image that rivals my SP4805. I look at it as fate since I have plans to get into Blu Ray in the new year and with a new TV i'll have full 1080p which my 4805 didn't have.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#2
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

With rear projection you're also looking at potential lamp replacements, aren't you?

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#3
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Yes however i've had in my lifetime 2 RP TV's and i've never had a single problem with either of them and i've known a few people who own/owned RP as well and they never had to replace anything so far.

I guess I just trust the technology more than I do FP.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#4
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Some rear projections have color wheels, too.

Almost all RPTV's have a "rib pitch" analogous to the dot pitch on CRT's. This imposes some limit on the horizontal resolution. You can measure this yourself by getting up close to the screen with a piece of paper and a sharp pencil, counting about two inches worth of the fine upright lines the picture appears to be made up of and estimating how many ribs there are across the screen.

Would you go with an LCD front projector? No color wheel on those models.

Video hints: http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm

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#5
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

If you really want to get into a low maintenance, modern, RPTV then you should consider one of the new Samsung LED-driven DLP RPTVs. These things have no lamp and no color wheel (the three high-powered red-green-blue LED's replace both). Plus you still get all the benefit of single-chip DLP technology. (High-contrast,zero convergence issues, and zero burn-in.) Just in case you're wondering, the three LEDs fire sequentially; thus no convergence issues. The emulated color wheel speed is 16x. And the rated life of the "LED Light Engine" is 20,000 hours.

If I ever get out of front projection, this is where I'm headed.

Here's a review of one of these beauties:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/tele...g-led-dlp.aspx

Joseph
---------------

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#6
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

My impression of the 4805 was that they were the first really affordable projector with a good picture. I just joined HTF and everyone was raving about them so much, I bought one sight unseen. My first one I had about 1,000 hours on it before it was ruined in a house flood. It made some noise but not enough to stop me from getting another to replace it. The second one was louder. I could hear the wheel wine over the quieter parts of a movie.

I moved and built another theater with an Optoma HD70 projector. It is the next step in resolution and is much, much quieter. Even when it is turned on and the receiver is off, I have to try and listen for it. I only have 300+hours on it so I can't comment on bulb life. Probably when the bulb blows, I will upgrade to a 1080 projector rather than replace it.

After having a 110" screen for so long, I don't think I can ever go to a 60" with out it irking me the whole time. Maybe try a different brand of projector or LCD as mentioned.
Cave Country Weather
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#7
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I would be willing to give LCD a shot, I just know that I can't bring myself to get back into FP again, after all the problems i've encountered after only being into FP for 3 years i've had enough.

I had more issues with FP in that short time than I did in the 8 years with my last RP to which was a grand total of zero problems.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#8
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I had more issues with FP in that short time than I did in the 8 years with my last RP to which was a grand total of zero problems.
Your old RPTV was old, stable technology that was very reliable and repairable. New RPTVs are not. They have many more ways to fail and repair is a process of plugging in large, expensive, subassemblies that become unavailable in 18 - 25 months. They use BGA and PLCC chips, nolead solder, fishcaps, inaccessible construction, and are likely subjects for "tin whiskers" and board flex (pops those BGA chips off the board) which will limit their life dramatically, not to mention dust blobs and melted LCD panels and filters, color wheels, light tunnels, lamps and HV lamp drivers just like FP. Your extended warranty will keep it going for 5 years but past that is looking unlikely.

I went with FP because I knew I could buy a new, better one if necessary for the same cost as most repairs on a new RPTV or Flat Panel set. (besides the 144" picture)
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#9
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Damn, your making it sound like tv's now are garbage, that it isn't possible to keep a new tv now past five years. Tell me something to make me feel better not worse lol.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#10
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
Damn, your making it sound like tv's now are garbage, that it isn't possible to keep a new tv now past five years. Tell me something to make me feel better not worse lol.
A redeeming factor is that brand is no longer very important. Cost + warranty + lamp (if relevant) divided by 5 should yield a cost-per-year to own your particular choice. Quality of performance on Analog, SD, and SD-Digital will be the biggest difference between the best and worst products. You will be viewing 4:3 content and low-rez digital for a long time, IMHO, and that requires good video and scan processing (esp. de-interlacing and scaling). Full HD signals will be very similar in appearance to the average person regardless of the brand.

I've been a TV tech for 35+ years and have had my own shop since 1979. I can see the end in sight. My only hope is that sticker shock will cause people to fix those 5 year old (still repairable) TVs. I have a 35" and 50" in the shop right now that were found on the side of the road that needed a $40 and $170 repair respectfully.
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#11
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Hmm, I've heard of the "tin whiskers" problem and that could be a major problem for everything electronic not just home theater, scary stuff indeed.

I know enough to know I don't know enough!

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#12
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I'm sure that developers are aware of these problems and are working to better them, right? It's the same with everything, when a new technology is introduced it takes a while to work the bugs out.

I probably won't be ready to buy a new set until around April of next year so any tv I get will be an 08' model.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#13
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I'm sure that developers are aware of these problems and are working to better them, right? It's the same with everything, when a new technology is introduced it takes a while to work the bugs out.

They've known about tin whiskers from about the 1940s Lead mitigated it somewhat, but that's a major health hazard, so it's back to square one.
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#14
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

John:

Another RPTV to look into is the Panasonic PT-61LCZ70 61" 1080p LIFI. It utilizes a new type of bulb Panasonic calls LiFi that doesn't have a filament, is warranted for 5 years, has a much faster start up time and since it is LCD no color wheel.

I saw this set and CEDIA and it looked great. And at around $1,500 a great buy on a 61 inch 1080p RPTV.

Parker

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#15
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

That looks like a great set, Parker and $1,500 was about my budget as well. Have to keep that one in mind.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#16
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I have the 4805 and while it is a very good PJ for the price it is not even HD. It is capable of downconverting HD signals to it's native resolution only. It does a very nice job of it though.

If you get a 720P or 1080i/p PJ you will get a picture on par or better than an RP.

Every child has many wishes. Some include a wallet, two chicks, and a cigar, but that's another story.
 
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#17
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

CNet had a good article on resolutions.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-...ml?tag=nl.e501
Points 5 and 9 are particularly important.
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#18
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

John:

We did a little podcast of the LiFi set while we were at CEDIA that you may want to take a look at.

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#19
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug_H
I have the 4805 and while it is a very good PJ for the price it is not even HD. It is capable of downconverting HD signals to it's native resolution only.

I know, which is another motivation for me getting a true HD display.

Parker, I can't access your link, when I click on it it closes my internet explorer.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#20
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I would go Front Projection any day over a small 56 inch HD display. The new projectors are just that good. For the price you spent on that TV you could have gone with the epson or the new panny 2000U. Just my opinion, the new projectors are of outstanding quality. And as mentioned before your TV will need a replacement lamp at some point.
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#21
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I just got my first projector and couldn't be happier. Upgraded from a 57" hitachi HD RP CRT to the Panny AX200. The work to reconfigure the HT room is ongoing, but I pull the pj out every other night to watch something. 127" screen. Just incredible to me, but I'm well into the newness factor.
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#22
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SherardP
And as mentioned before your TV will need a replacement lamp at some point.

But i'll bet it's not every 3,000 hrs and I wouldn't have to pay for it if the TV is under warrenty.

You guys are speaking from the point of view of projector owners with all the size talk when in reality a 60" TV is nothing to sneeze at, your just used to larger that's all.

I've come to terms with the fact that it'll be a smaller image, though so it doesn't bother me, as long as I have a nice TV where I pay as little out of my own pocket every year (that's what I was averaging in lamp use with my 4805 since I used it not only for DVD and HD viewing) than that's all i'm concerning myself with.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#23
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
But i'll bet it's not every 3,000 hrs and I wouldn't have to pay for it if the TV is under warrenty.
You're really going to come to hate me. The repair history is that lamps generally need to be replaced every 2 - 3 years, regardless of hours. If the lamp fails with a very low number of hours, then the driver board should be replaced too. The specification given by manufacturers is time till reduced performance, not mean time between failures (MTBF). Lamp life can be increased dramatically if you realise that a set using one is not a normal TV. You cannot turn it on and off at will, you need to plan usage. Lamp warranties are often much shorter than the rest of the parts in the TV also.
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#24
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
But i'll bet it's not every 3,000 hrs and I wouldn't have to pay for it if the TV is under warrenty.
I don't know about either of those points. There's no magic lamp technology driving RP versus FP TVs. Lamps are lamps. And better read the fine print in the warrantees involved to make sure the lamps is covered.

Guess I got lucky - my X1 has been trouble free for years. I particularly relate to Steve's point
Quote:
ou will be viewing 4:3 content and low-rez digital for a long time, IMHO, and that requires good video and scan processing (esp. de-interlacing and scaling).
This is one reason I'm so happy with the X1.

Philip Hamm
Moderator Emeritus

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#25
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

My nearby Costco currently has the 61" Panasonic LiFi for $1250!

He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it. -- T. H. White, "The Once and Future King"

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#26
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Since I moved to a new apartment, I've briefly considered ditching FP as well (SP4805 too) for practical reasons (lots of windows here), but I've decided to put some effort into adapting the place to PJ use. The reason? A think this excellent passage from an otherwise lackluster article (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/sexy-proj...der-322679.php) says it best:

"There's just something about a projected image in a darkened room that elicits mystery, focuses your attention, and makes it feel like you've dedicated yourself to the content on the screen. There's nothing incidental about watching a movie in a darkened room on a projector."

I used to worry about bulb life and decreasing brightness when I first got the PJ, but not any more. I couldn't even tell you how many hours I've put on it. I've fallen asleep and left the thing on overnight many times. I am sure it's not as bright as when I first got it, but that's only because I know that the light output will decrease over time. Otherwise, I can't say I've noticed it.

The bulb could blow up the next time plug it in (it's boxed up right now) and I wouldn't care: I've owned the thing for 2.5 years, and I've more than gotten my $900 worth. My next purchase will be in the same price range, and undoubtedly better.

Last, I am exclusively a film guy on the PJ. No TV or Games. That pretty much guaranties that lamps will outlast the need to upgrade (even less reasons to worry about it).

So yes, I am gonna try to make the PJ work in the new place before I give up on it (a very real and unfortunate possibility. I need to find a way to keep the light out). That BIG picture is addictive... the Wow factor with friends is unrivaled.

--
H
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#27
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

Gee I just plug the thing back in tonight to test screen placement and stuff. Turns out there are only 961 hours on the thing . Mind you, I bought it in July 2005. I knew I used it somewhat sparingly, and not purposely so: Much of my screening in recent years has been older 4:3 black and white films or TV on DVD, and the 32 inch 4:3 CRT is just fine for those. But I never imagined usage would be this low (I've not looked at bulb life in months.)

961 hours in 2.5 years translates into an average of 7.3 hours or 3 projected films a week, which is about right.

I guess I will be sticking with the 4805 for longer than I thought...

Sorry John, projectors rule.

--
H
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#28
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I have a Optoma H30 that I've had for a few years. I use it strictly for movie watching and I only have about 290 hours on the Bulb. I love it but would never use a projector as my main source of everyday TV Viewing. I just don't trust the Bulbs in these things. They get rated for 2000 hours but I've seen some go at 300 or so. It seems you have to be prepared everytime you turn it on that it may be your last. I bought a 46" Bravia TV for my main viewing, and HD-DVD and Blu Ray and gaming, and could'nt be happier, sure it's not 96" But what is....
My DVD Collection

The Megaplex

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#29
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

I think that excerpt from the article you provided, Holadem, has more to do with how much of your environment and more importantly field of vision an image takes up and isn't necessarily FP exclusive.

If I have a relatively small living room (which I do) a 61" tv will fill my field of vision quite well and produce the same effect and feeling the article describes, and yes the WOW factor from friends will still be there since none of my friends except one owns a full 1080p television.

I've also made my decision on my next tv, i've fallen madly in love with the Sony Bravia KO560A3000, that tv shall be mine after the holidays are over with, well, after about 2 months of saving that is.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#30
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Re: Front projection...I just can't deal with it anymore.

John, have you considered a flat-screen LCD or Plasma? I don't know the technical trade-offs, but that's what I want to do when it's time to upgrade from my 5-yr old Sony Wega. I'd been intending to do a large RPTV or perhaps FP. But after seeing the new flat-screens, I'm convinced that's the way to go. No installation issues of the FP. No convergence or focus annoyances of CRT and RP. And lighter weight than the CRT and RPTV.
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