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New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

#1
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11/27/07 at 11:21am
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Got our new Sony 46" LCD projector TV this past week, as well as the Shaw Hi Def PVR box from Motorola (DCT 3400).,
and I totally realize why there are 'black bars' around wide screen movies , especially 'panavsion style' aspect ratio's such as 2:00.1 / 2:35.1 up to Ben Hur's 2:76.1 ..

BUT why is the academy ratio of 1:78 and 1:85 (haven't tried 1:66 yet) have black bars over and above the images ??? The New Sony TV of mine ( KDF 46E series) has the option of choosing Wide Zoom/Normal/Full.Zoom/Off (4:3).. and In choosing some zoom features it appears to me that I am blooming the picture either outwards to full or upwards to fill. Wide Zoom seems to be the most natural looking but again isn't this cheating on the image?? I thought that my 16 x 9 TV would fit a 1:78 image naturally and the aspect ratio of 1:78.1 is the same as 16 x 9. ??

I do not wish to cut off heads and forefront images to use the zoom feature,, therefore any 4:3 TV and DVD should be set on Off ..,Plus it looks most natural when set to Normal.
But my widescreen DVD and cable TV broadcasts should not have black bars for the above mentioned aspect ratios.

Also the HiDEF upper channels from my cable subscriber (Shaw) has these widescreen movies as 'Major Window Boxed ' 16 x 9 images.., I have to again use the zoom feature to get the image to fill the screen. Will HDMI wire fix this ?

My HDMI wire is coming soon from eBay,($5.00 instead of $80.) so right now I am using cable and component as well as SVH and RCA Jacks.

Any one happen to know and suggest ideas I haven't come across yet?

Thanks
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#2
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11/27/07 at 12:36pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

The academy ratio is 1:1.85, not 1:!.78 so very narrow black band across the top and bottom of the screen is strictly correct. Thicker bands are used for scope/super35 (1:2.35)

Most HD broadcasts are 1:1.78, so no bands should appear. Films shown on TV are sometimes shown at their original aspect ratio (e.g. NBC's The Incredibles) and sometimes are cropped to fill a 1.1.78 screen.

Check to see that your DVD player and cable box are set to use "16:9" mode, not "4:3".
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#3
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11/27/07 at 5:30pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

The setup is set for 16 by 9 and not 4:3..,, But wanted to point out that unless I use a zoom feature on these 1:78 's I do not get black bars it just 'fills' the screen with Picture,, and if I rotate around the zoom feature around on the TV remote control I can make these aspect ratios go back to a 'window Boxed' ratio ( Large black on all four corners, or slight black bars like you see on a 4:3 square TV,, or a large zoom in or a medium zoom in. The medium is the most natural looking.
So my post I guess, is why the massive window box on normal or full ?? It should just naturally fill screen without a zoom.
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#4
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11/27/07 at 5:47pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

what's the native resolution of the TV? What are the DVD player and cable box set to?
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#5
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12/3/07 at 1:56pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

I've since discovered that by using the componant jacks instead of 'channel 3' it makes a world of differance in this aspect ratio question.
If I view by using channel 3 from the cable box back to the TV I cannot rid the 1:78 black bars., BUt if I use the componant jacks back to the TV the bars are gone., and by surfing thru the channels if I come across 2:35 films it is displayed properly with bars on top and bottom., if I chance across 1:78 films the screen fills out full without any zooming., and all 4:3 films are window boxed in the centre of the screen with bars on all four sides.
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#6
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12/3/07 at 2:32pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

ewww. Channel 3 is an abomination.
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#7
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12/4/07 at 5:25pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Unless I am missing something major, I think you were watching 480i material. if you are using "channel 3", in other words the signal that comes from coax input then you cannot be watching HD.

HD signal cannot be received from a cable box via anything other than component or HDMI/DVI.
Rolando Avendano

My Collection
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#8
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12/4/07 at 5:52pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando
Unless I am missing something major, I think you were watching 480i material. if you are using "channel 3", in other words the signal that comes from coax input then you cannot be watching HD.

HD signal cannot be received from a cable box via anything other than component or HDMI/DVI.

Yes obvisiously channel three is 480 i,, but the point of my posts were that in channel three -1:78 info from either 'cable broadcast' or 'DVD' thru RCA jacks into TV (channel 3) would only come letterbox with bars on top and bottom., Unless I hit the zoom feature to kill the bars, didn't seem right to me, until I then discovered that component jacks ( my hdmi cables haven't arrived yet), would give me the true aspect ratio (input jacks) and would fill the screen without any zooming. I discovered all this after 1 day of playing with the cables and the remote. , and keep in mind I have never had a 16x9 TV up to this day only a 4:3 TV . Plus on top of this, My cable support team showed me how to 'menu the 4:3 TV to OFF' thru the cable HD Digital Cable PVR's (off) menu., (which was only accessable from an OFF position on the box. )

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#9
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12/4/07 at 7:38pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Plus tonight I discovered to my embarrassment,,,, that both my DVD players menu's were set to 4:3 display as well ... LOL ... boy do I feel dumb now.. LOL... But I can guarantee that there are probably a few million TV's, cable boxes and DVD players out there tonight that haven't been changed to 16 x 9 ratio either.. am I right about that ??/
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#10
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12/5/07 at 6:18pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Even if you set the DVD player or cable box to 16x9, if you use a non-component or non-HDMI/DVI output, the transmitting device assumes that the TV is 4x3 and will send a 4x3 appropriate signal (HD is down-ressed to 480i and it is non-anamorphic).
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#11
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12/9/07 at 5:34am
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

widescreenforever, I really don't have any advice I just want to say that I love your name. Pan and scan and open-matting can burn in the depths of hell.
"You have no idea how far i'm willing to go to acquire your cooperation." - Jack Bauer
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#12
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12/9/07 at 8:41pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

I'd just like to jump in here and say none of you know what the hell you are talking about - - - Academy Ratio is 1.37:1.

All the rest of the facts are fine.
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#13
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12/9/07 at 8:59pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

There's an interesting flash demonstration of Academy Flat, Scope, Super35, and various other shooting formats.
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#14
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12/10/07 at 3:13am
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyErwin
There's an interesting flash demonstration of Academy Flat, Scope, Super35, and various other shooting formats.

Academy Flat is not the Academy Ratio.
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#15
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12/12/07 at 4:25pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

So.., even now today after I have all my questions answered from my first post.., I am still stuck on one other item/question here..,:
Aspect ratio's and 16 x 9 TV's..
We talked about 1:78.1 presentations and they now do the trick and fill the screen comfortably (full) and to my satisfaction that it is not a zoom or wide zoom image., but what about 1:66.1 ??
The other day on TCM they ran the 1961 film of The Misfits.,, and I had black bars on top and bottom of image which to me looked like the film was 2:35.1,, but on my 4:3.1 TV in Bedroom the image was diffinately 1:66 .
(and of course IMDB confirmed this as well.)
So today I need to know more about this.. How is it a 1:78.1 film fills the 16 x 9 screen perfectly and yet the next 'step' down (being 1:66.1) was displayed with a good portion of bars? If I zoomed in for a 'zoom wide '
it filled the screen but the image was now cropped on top and bottom.
I have the (Sony KDF46E2000) Projection TV of mine set for 'auto fill' , i.e. the TV will pick the appropriate wide or normal settings depending on the cable/dvd image filtering thru. (on Componant jacks/HDMI) .
If I went to 'normal/full it showed widescreen with bars... ???????
and I previewed this all thru an HDMI cable from the digital Motorola PVDR 3400 series and also TCM was being broadcast in analog and not Hi Def ,
if that is the answer to this dilemma of mine.
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#16
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12/12/07 at 5:56pm
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Re: New W/S LCD TV -why Black Bars on 1:78 films?

Greetings

A 1.66 film should have bars on the left and right just like a 4:3 program. just not as thick on the black bars.

Pillar Box.

Regards

Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
THX Video Systems Instructor
ISF Calibration Instructor
Lion A/V Consultants Network
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