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Lossless audio made me go low-tech

#1
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11/10/07 at 11:24pm
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Since buying a new prepro/receiver with HDMI audio processing capabilities is not in the budget for the near future (bought a new car recently), and my old Outlaw 950 only has 1 set of 5.1 analog audio inputs. Got the Toshiba XA2 and the Panasonic BDP-10A, both have at least 5.1 analog audio outputs (for lossless audio, and anything else they can decode). So I ended up using two of those 3-port A/V switchers (just simple mechanical switchers for RCA connector inputs), and fed the front L-R-C into one switcher from each source, and the rear L-R-Sub into the other switcher. The video side is handled with direct connection of HDMI to the TV set.

Originally I had the BDP-10A using the 5.1 analog audio input on the 950, and the optical audio output from the XA2, but I really wanted to hear TrueHD from HD DVD, and after comparing the downrezzed audio from the XA2 with the TrueHD, it was well worth the hassle and cost of the A/V switchers to get the sonic upgrade for both HDM sources now. Sure, it's a low-tech and clunky solution for now, but it'll have to do until I upgrade the prepro/receiver in the future.

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#2
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11/11/07 at 10:49am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

That's exactly what I am planning on doing. Right now I have the HD-A1 hooked up via 5.1 analog to a cheap Yamaha receiver. Sounds fantastic. When I go blu-ray I'll pick up a cheap switcher for the RCA cables.

This is a newbie question, but do most blu-ray players have 5.1 analog outs?
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#3
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11/11/07 at 2:27pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Calvert
This is a newbie question, but do most blu-ray players have 5.1 analog outs?

That's not always the best assumption (because Sony's PS3 is considered to be one of the best Blu-ray players, but only has lossless audio via its HDMI output), so you should always check to see if the model you are considering does offer 5.1 audio output (or 7.1 as in the case of the Panasonic BDP-10A).

I picked up my A/V switchers at Target for $15 each. I would have bought them at Fry's for $13 each, but they only had one in stock and I needed 2, plus the very same rebadged switcher by RCA (or Magnavox) was $27 at Fry's as well, so shop around. There are some on Ebay for $7 delivered, but I didn't want to wait to get the stuff hooked up (because my longer HDMI cables showed up last week too).

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#4
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11/12/07 at 6:38am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

monoprice has one that can accommodate four 5.1 analogue inputs and one output (with remote switching) for about 35$ or so. I plan to get one to accommodate my two hi-res audio players and two hi-def disc players.

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#5
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11/12/07 at 8:48am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Do you have a part number or link to that particular item from Monoprice? I did look, but never stumbled across anything remotely like that, and not for a price under $100 (in other searches).

...

Then getting creative with the searching, I found this:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

From the reviews, it looks like it's not all that good at pushing 720p/1080i via component video, but seems to be a decent 5.1 analog audio switcher since the bandwidth requirement is much smaller for audio (only 0-20,000Hz). Too bad it'll be 12/1/07 before they have them in stock again, but I'm intrigued by it (plus I could return the other switchers if I needed to if I pull the trigger on this unit from Monoprice, but the convenience of an all-in-one box solution will add about $10 to the cost when shipping is factored into the final price).

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#6
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11/12/07 at 9:27am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

All I have for now is a Yamaha RX-V995 with no HDMI and no component video. I have my Sony BDP-S300 hooked up to the optical and analog input and my HD-DVD player is hooked up to a optical input. At least until I upgrade to a Denon AVR-3808ci or VSX-94TXH receiver.

1080p High Definition SupporterLossless Audio Supporter Current Library: 221 DVD's / 70 HD-DVD's / 181 Blu-ray's (251 HD Titles)

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#7
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11/12/07 at 9:55am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun

Then getting creative with the searching, I found this:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

From the reviews, it looks like it's not all that good at pushing 720p/1080i via component video, but seems to be a decent 5.1 analog audio switcher since the bandwidth requirement is much smaller for audio (only 0-20,000Hz). Too bad it'll be 12/1/07 before they have them in stock again, but I'm intrigued by it (plus I could return the other switchers if I needed to if I pull the trigger on this unit from Monoprice, but the convenience of an all-in-one box solution will add about $10 to the cost when shipping is factored into the final price).
This is the unit I meant. I don't know why it would not be good with component video (I'm currently using a switch like yours to "combine" two pathways to my pj--only one input--and it works fine). In any event, I will be using it only for audio as A) I have sufficient cabling to accommodate four players and B) it is a lot cheaper than upgrading my receiver. Besides, my receiver allows me to do all the bass management/time alignment I want at the MCH input, so as long as the players have internal level adjustment functions, I'm good to go. (and three years of using my receiver in that fashion with hi-res audio has shown me that I have nothing to fear about "sonic degradation" from using it that way)

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#8
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11/12/07 at 8:11pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Someone at AVS attempted using this unit as a solution without any luck.

I can't post the URL but just do a search.
(Thread title: Anyone use Y-splitters to hook up multiple analog setups?)

"OK here the short answer, it won't work in most cases.
The component section of the switcher[pb pr y] has a much lower voltage then the audio L. R. section. It was a 15db difference. The digital was fine for the SW. I couldn't detect any noise . I played Sound & Vision test disc to check I got the channels right, they were, but like I said there was huge difference between the front 3 channels[hooked up through component video] and the surrounds[hooked up via audio L R]. My Oppo would let me balance the difference out but the Toshiba won't let you raise the level beyond "0" , so it would come up short by 5db. Bummer!"
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#9
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11/12/07 at 8:29pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

That's good to know. I guess I'm back at the purely mechanical solution for now.

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#10
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11/13/07 at 6:00pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Low tech Rules for the rest of us.
I actually put in a BD10 with an older 720p TV, but now I have a 1080p (nice)
The audio was and still is 5.1 to an old B&K - sounds great.
The thought of adding a clunky switcher is OK if I ever go dual. Why Not - HDMI in the current Pre/receiver market is still evolving. Low tech is cool
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#11
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11/14/07 at 8:21am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
Someone at AVS attempted using this unit as a solution without any luck.

I can't post the URL but just do a search.
(Thread title: Anyone use Y-splitters to hook up multiple analog setups?)

"OK here the short answer, it won't work in most cases.
The component section of the switcher[pb pr y] has a much lower voltage then the audio L. R. section. It was a 15db difference. The digital was fine for the SW. I couldn't detect any noise . I played Sound & Vision test disc to check I got the channels right, they were, but like I said there was huge difference between the front 3 channels[hooked up through component video] and the surrounds[hooked up via audio L R]. My Oppo would let me balance the difference out but the Toshiba won't let you raise the level beyond "0" , so it would come up short by 5db. Bummer!"
Yikes--guess I'll stick to the clunkier, but reliable, all mechanical solution.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

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#12
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11/14/07 at 5:20pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
Yikes--guess I'll stick to the clunkier, but reliable, all mechanical solution.

Paul - A lot of people are using a Philips component video switcher sold at Walmart for $20 (in stores only, not online). It's a 4-in/1-out design that includes 6 RCAs for each input (3 component ,2 l/r audio, 1 composite). It's a passive model that apparently doesn't color the sound in any way. I'm just going to continue swapping the cables until I upgrade my receiver.
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#13
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11/14/07 at 6:37pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

I meant to check out Wal-Mart, but never got near one last weekend, but I'll try to swing by there this weekend and see if I can score the 4-n-1 switcher.

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#14
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11/14/07 at 6:46pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
Paul - A lot of people are using a Philips component video switcher sold at Walmart for $20 (in stores only, not online). It's a 4-in/1-out design that includes 6 RCAs for each input (3 component ,2 l/r audio, 1 composite). It's a passive model that apparently doesn't color the sound in any way. I'm just going to continue swapping the cables until I upgrade my receiver.
Any chance it can be found at another store than Wal-Mart? I have a small list of stores who've given me sufficiently bad service to warrant a personal boycott, and Wal-Mart is on that list. In any event, it's not important for now but I do thank you for the heads up about the product.

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#15
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11/15/07 at 12:47am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Here's a link to the Philips switcher I mentioned:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=3904683

Walmart is the only seller I'm aware of. You might check Amazon sellers. I never go to Walmart either but I think I'll swing by and check. But wow that's gonnna be a lot of interconnects behind my equipment rack. Still - I think it's the best solution because I really don't wanna upgrade my receiver just to get HDMI. The analog outs on my Toshiba and Sony players both sound really good to me.
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#16
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11/15/07 at 3:45am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

I was in the same position a few months ago, needing a 6 channel switching unit. I tried a number of video switchers, including a Philips HDTV (component, video and L/R) from Wal-Mart (Canada) and my Key Digital (component, digital and L/R) and another Sony switch (video, L/R). In all cases, whenever the audio was routed through the video lines (and digital in the Key Digital) the volume was always 12 - 15 dB low as noted in a previous post. My Toshiba XA2 did not allow increasing volume enough and I could not find a solution to the volume differences......Just for information from my trials....YMMV

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#17
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11/15/07 at 8:27am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

I use a switch box to get 2.1 from one player and 5.1 from another (all audio) into my MCH input. I use the stereo L/R and the composite video inputs on the switch box and I've not noticed any difference in audio level compared to when it went directly to the receiver (I used to unplug and replug the cables). I had set the levels before buying the switchbox and did not bother to redo them. I have no reason to doubt your experience but I am very curious as to why the component video inputs on the switchbox would have that effect (at least on mechanical ones that are entirely passive--what would be the point in designing it that way?). Is it possible that it is a cabling issue, rather than a switchbox issue? I'm just trying to understand. Otherwise, I'll simply get more "ordinary" switchboxes like the one I have now and deal with that. Still cheaper than upgrading my receiver.

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#18
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11/15/07 at 8:36am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

From what I've read, the main reason why some of the switchboxes presented a 15db drop when connecting the component video and the coaxial audio ports is because those ports also have a terminating resistor in the circuitry path for each port.

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#19
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11/15/07 at 8:46am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
From what I've read, the main reason why some of the switchboxes presented a 15db drop when connecting the component video and the coaxial audio ports is because those ports also have a terminating resistor in the circuitry for each port.
Ok. I'm no engineer, but that sounds like something that could interfere with the signal. My next question would be, then, does this confer an advantage to the video signal (the purported purpose of the box)? I have another box that I currently use to switch two component feeds to my projector (one from the HD PVR and the other from my receiver's component output for SD DVD). It is just like the one I use for audio as I've described above. One thing I've noticed for these two boxes is they don't care which direction the signal is going. I once used the same box to send the component video output of a DVD player to two different TVs (so the single "output" of the box became an input and the two "inputs" were now outputs--I did this so the kids' room TV could get a DVD image without buying another player). I find the PQ through this switchbox as I am using it now to be very good, even excellent and it is NOT a box specifically tailored to switch component video. Would my PQ be even better if I got such a box?

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#20
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11/15/07 at 9:49am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Usually terminating resistors are put in place to eliminate reflections in the signal path, smooths out the high frequency signals (audio signals only go from 0 to 20,000 Hz, while the video signals are in the 50MHz range).

It's also like how SCSI cables 10 years ago always had a terminating resistor on the end to eliminate the bounceback of the data being transferred at high speed on the SCSI databus.

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#21
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11/15/07 at 5:06pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Usually terminating resistors are put in place to eliminate reflections in the signal path, smooths out the high frequency signals (audio signals only go from 0 to 20,000 Hz, while the video signals are in the 50MHz range).

It's also like how SCSI cables 10 years ago always had a terminating resistor on the end to eliminate the bounceback of the data being transferred at high speed on the SCSI databus.
So, if I understand correctly, my current box copes with the component video signal reasonably well (quite well to my eyes, but I don't have multiple hi-def displays side by side) BUT I could potentially improve the PQ by going with one of the specifically designed boxes?

Conversely, for audio purposes, unless the player's internal level management settings allow one to go above 0 dB (which is apparently not the case for a lot of players--including my universal), I should stay with the type of box I have now (despite needing to get several more to accommodate hi-def players) rather than going with the component video boxes with the terminating resistors?

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#22
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11/15/07 at 6:34pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

All I can offer is that most manufacturers would rather go with a simpler design if it'll meet the needs of the consumer, so if some manufacturers are providing a termination buffer for the component video ports at the added expense, they either do so because it does help in performance, or in marketing the switcher unit at a higher price point. If you are happy with a purely mechanical switch for your component video switching needs, stick with it. If you're curious, buy one of the other switchers, and try it out, and if you find some value in it, then keep it, otherwise, return it.

You would definitely want a purely mechanical and simple switch for the audio if the high-def player doesn't provide a way to boost the output levels via its analog audio output.

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#23
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11/17/07 at 4:49am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
Here's a link to the Philips switcher I mentioned:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=3904683

Walmart is the only seller I'm aware of. You might check Amazon sellers. I never go to Walmart either but I think I'll swing by and check. But wow that's gonnna be a lot of interconnects behind my equipment rack. Still - I think it's the best solution because I really don't wanna upgrade my receiver just to get HDMI. The analog outs on my Toshiba and Sony players both sound really good to me.

I finally got a chance to go to Wal-Mart and picked up the switcher linked above (locally it was $19.99, a few dollars cheaper than the link had listed). The switcher from Wal-Mart is bigger than the stacked combo of 2 composite video/L-R audio switchers I got from Target, but I like having it all in one switcher, rather split up with 2 of them. I hooked the new switcher up, and everything works normally and sounds like it should, and given that it's $10 less than the 2 switchers combined that I bought previously, I'm going to use the savings and go get a couple of Blu-rays from Fry's "buy 1 get 1 free" deal this weekend.

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#24
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11/17/07 at 6:20am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

No -10dB in the component video inputs? I may just have to set aside my non-Wal-Mart policy for this one.

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#25
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11/17/07 at 7:21am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

From what I can tell, it's all mechanical, so no signal drop over the component video inputs.

One caveat, though it's labelled as a 4-n-1 switcher, for 6-channel audio purposes, only 3 sets of inputs have 6 channels, the 4th input only provides 3 channels (for composite video and 2 audio channels).

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#26
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11/17/07 at 7:48am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
From what I can tell, it's all mechanical, so no signal drop over the component video inputs.

One caveat, though it's labelled as a 4-n-1 switcher, for 6-channel audio purposes, only 3 sets of inputs have 6 channels, the 4th input only provides 3 channels (for composite video and 2 audio channels).
That actually works quite well for me, as I use on of my players in a 2.1 channel configuration for CD playback (long story, but that's how I use it to keep my sub in play for 2 channel playback without extra processing/conversions), so I would only need 3 channels for one of the inputs.

And when you say 'from what I can tell', is that from your experience since you hooked it up or based on the fact that it is purely mechanical?

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#27
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11/17/07 at 7:56am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Oh, believe me, I hooked it up and played Batman Begins on HD DVD and The Fifth Element on Blu-ray and it sounded as it should have, no drop across the front speakers. But it's also just mechanical (no power supply is attached to the unit, unlike some other models, the Philips PH61150, that try to provide a "cleaner" signal path for the high frequency component video switcher with some circuitry/terminations).

The part number of the switcher I bought is Philips PH61148

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#28
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11/17/07 at 7:59am
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Oh, believe me, I hooked it up and played Batman Begins on HD DVD and The Fifth Element on Blu-ray and it sounded as it should have, no drop across the front speakers. But it's also just mechanical (no power supply is attached to the unit, unlike some other models, the Philips PH61150, that try to provide a "cleaner" signal path for the high frequency component video switcher with some circuitry/terminations).

The part number of the switcher I bought is Philips PH61148
Great. I think I've found what I'm looking for. Thank you very much for your responses.

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#29
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11/17/07 at 3:39pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
I finally got a chance to go to Wal-Mart and picked up the switcher linked above (locally it was $19.99, a few dollars cheaper than the link had listed). The switcher from Wal-Mart is bigger than the stacked combo of 2 composite video/L-R audio switchers I got from Target, but I like having it all in one switcher, rather split up with 2 of them. I hooked the new switcher up, and everything works normally and sounds like it should, and given that it's $10 less than the 2 switchers combined that I bought previously, I'm going to use the savings and go get a couple of Blu-rays from Fry's "buy 1 get 1 free" deal this weekend.

Glad to hear the Philips switcher is workin' out for ya. Did you have to buy more interconnects? What length are you using? I bet it looks like Dr. Octopus back there!
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#30
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11/17/07 at 6:59pm
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Re: Lossless audio made me go low-tech

I just used whatever RCA-tipped cables I had laying around. I don't really get too worked up over low-level signals and uber-expensive cabling/interconnects for audio channels.

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