Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I just got an Onkyo TX-SR705, and liked the idea of the Audyssey MultEQ feature. I have PSB Image speakers and an SVS sub. The Audyssey MultEQ set all 5 of my speakers to "full range" and set the sub volume so low, it was like it wasn't even there. I did three mic positions with the Audyssey MultEQ - in close proximity to each other. The distances were pretty close, but the sound wasn't good. I ended up setting them all to 80Hz, and my sub's LPF of LFE to 100.

Anyone had luck with Audyssey MultEQ? I wish I could force the speaker types to "stick" prior to running the setup.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

People seem to have had rather mixed results with the auto setup features from all brands. I have never used it myself, but will be giving it a try on an Onkyo 605 in the next day or two. I can do calibrations myself, but was just curious how the auto route would work.

I've read several responses of them setting all speakers to large, and wonder if it is because a lot of people insist on using that setting and get downright belligerent if you suggest otherwise.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

I've used the auto/eq with a Pioneer 1014 an H/K 435 and an Onkyo 702. All three set even my smallest speakers (Athena Point 5, 4" drivers) to large and also set the sub volume too low. Speaker distances were pretty accurate but volumes were a bit suspect. You can usually go back in and re-set the size, volumes, etc. after the fact but that kind of defeats the purpose. The other problem I ran into with all three receivers was the eq would produce a different sound every time I ran it. I'm more than willing to accept the fact that it could have been "user error" but can't imagine what I could have done so differently for it to produce such a different sound. The Pioneer and Onkyo allow for manual eq adjustments, which I prefer, but the H/K does not. Also, the Pioneer lets you see the auto's eq settings. The other two don't. I'm no expert but I still prefer to set things up myself. But they can be fun to play with.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

It has been my experience that the Audyssey equalization works extremely well on the two Denons I own (a 3806 and a 3808). In fact, I will be using the Audyssey Pro calibration shortly on my 3808 (32 data points) because it also incorporates dynamic equalization which I first heard at CEDIA and which is a remarkable advancement in home equalization. Go to the audyssey site to learn more about the particulars.

BTW: Only the Denons (3808 and up) support Dynamic Equalization. The Integra and the NAD don't have processing speeds needed for this task.

Sidebar: I don't really think that your choice of wording for the title of this thread is very productive. It smacks of the attitudes present at some "other" HT forums and is very confrontational. You would have gotten the same point across with something like, "I have questions regarding Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705" without coming across with an attitude. You should consider editing the title in the spirit of civil dialogue.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just frustrated.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Hi All,

This is an interesting thread because I had similar results. I recently purchased an Integra DTR-7.8 AVR with the Audysey. I ran it several times, but it also kept comming up with front mains and center on full [even Snell recommends that my speakers be set to small or 80 HZ crossover and the my SVS sub on 80 HZ].

This setting sounds best to me, but maybe to others, the Audyssey setting would sound better. It's all very subjective.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

What exactly are you frustrated with?

The Onkyo implementation has been reported to be somewhat "optimistic" in identifying speakers as large when they're not. You've fixed that.

Same with the levels. The auto setup part of the Audyssey routine is calibrating the levels as the micrpophone measured them. Were you holding the mic during the measurements? Was there extra background noise...A/C, dog barking, planes overhead, etc....when you did any of the measurements. All of these can throw off level and EQ settings. Again, season to taste.

Lastly, Audyssey does much more than auto setup levels and distance delays. It attempts to achieve a flat frequency response at the measured locations using a combination of EQ and time alignment. That's a tall order in the typical home listening environment. Depending on how "flat" your frame of reference is prior to the EQ, you may not like it...and there's nothing wrong with that. Have you ever seen a monitor that had adjustable color temps? While 6500K is the broadcast reference standard, it probably looked much less engaging than the higher temps at first glance. Same thing used to be pretty common when people first moved up to real subwoofers like SVS or Hsu...with their flat frequency responses, people didn't feel like they had as much bass as the CC/BB one note wonders with big 35-40hz tuning peaks and then nothing below that.

In short, after making reasonable adjustments to the crossovers and adjusting the levels to taste, give yourself some time to acclimate to the EQ. The guys behind the math aren't exactly dumb. If, after giving it an honest evaluation, you still don't like the EQ, don't use it...nothing wrong with that.

BTW, I wouldn't start tweaking the EQ manually, if the 705 allows it. My understanding is once you do that, you wipe out the Audyssey calcuations. The manual EQ doesn't give you time domain adjustments and also doesn't have as much EQ flexibility as the auto routine. Only resort to manual EQ after you've given Audyssey a fair shake, IMO.

-Brent

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

I ended up turning my EQ off, and I have had email conversations with SVS that sound similar. They recommend setting my speakers at 80Hz, and the LPF of LFE for my SVS sub at 100Hz - using an Onkyo TX-SR705.

I had another strange issue. I have had an audible and annoying hum sound coming from my sub, and I thought I had the dreaded ground loop issue - and I still may. When I switched my Onkyo's EQ setting from "Audyssey" to "Off", the hum sound decreased dramatically! I've had enough problems, so I set my distances manually, and used a SPL meter to set my levels. Sounds good to me! Now about that darn, now faint hum....

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Hi everyone,

I thought I could jump in and offer some explanations about Audyssey MultEQ and the crossover issue that is being discussed here.

First, some background. The Large and Small differentiation can be attributed on Audyssey's co-founder and Chief Science Office, Tomlinson Holman. When he started the THX program many years ago he proposed the use of these terms to describe whether a speaker should be bass managed or not. When discussing speakers designed to the THX spec that meant that if a speaker has a -3 dB cutoff point of 80 Hz or above it should be called Small and if it can go below 80 Hz it should be called Large.

This terminology is now widely used by manufacturers even if the speakers are not THX. This is the case in the Onkyo receiver. Onkyo specified that the decision for Large or Small will be based on 80 Hz. So, when Audyssey MultEQ runs it measures each speaker's response and reports the -3 dB point to the Onkyo bass management system.

The problem is that when a speaker has a -3 dB point of, say, 79 Hz, MultEQ will call it "Large" to follow the rules. The Onkyo bass management system then sets it to Large and bass below 79 Hz is not sent to the sub because it is assumed that the speaker will handle it.

We are working hard to convince manufacturers to change their thinking about the default settings of their bass management. Some have already done so and have lowered the criterion to 40 Hz.

The 705 doesn't do that automatically, so the simple solution is to manually set the speakers to Small after the calibration is finished. When you do that, the crossover values that were found by MultEQ will be applied to all speakers and the bass will be properly redirected to the subwoofer. This manual step is a small inconvenience, but it doesn't have any negative effect on the performance of the room correction filters produced by MultEQ.

I hope this helps clear up things. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions about Audyssey.

Best regards,

Chris Kyriakakis
Founder and CTO
Audyssey Laboratories

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Chris,

Thanks so much for your explanation on the Audyssey settings. I have an Integra DTR 7.8 AVR with Audyssey MultiEQ. After running the Audyssey setup, my Snell speakers were also set to full. Snell recommends setting them to small or 80 HZ.

My question is, are you saying that after I run the Audyssey and change just the speaker settings to small or 80 HZ all of the other settings will remain the same [speaker distance, etc.]? If so, that works out pretty well as that's an easy adjustment to make.

Thanks for the great information!

Mitch

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Hi Mitch,

That's right. All the other settings remain unchanged when you manually switch to Small.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Chris:

Thanks for your presence and expertise. I'm not an Audyssey owner, but I'm avidly following its early appearances, although I haven't yet heard it in action.

I do have a question about one of your comments: "Onkyo specified that the decision for Large or Small will be based on 80 Hz. So, when Audyssey MultEQ runs it measures each speaker's response and reports the -3 dB point to the Onkyo bass management system."

This suggests to me that the Audyssey implementation can be different from piece to piece, from manufacturer to manufacturer. If that is the case, how does Audyssey maintain brand/performance consistency? To acquire a device that represents the optimum Audyssey performance, do consumers need to have another level of knowledge about the specific hardware implementation? I've already noticed (perhaps incorrectly) that some Audyssey-licensed devices support the pro level features and some do not. Some support Dynamic EQ and some do not.

How can we know what we're really getting when we purchase an Audyssey-enabled receiver or pre/pro?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Hi Bob,

Individual manufacturers decide on how to implement bass management in their products. This is not a function performed by Audyssey. Some of the better products provide the ability to have individual crossover frequencies between each satellite and the subwoofer(s). Others only provide a single crossover choice for all speakers.

The Audyssey MultEQ XT algorithms are the same in every product that bears the MultEQ XT logo. They are responsible for: checking speaker polarity; finding the distance to each speaker and sub; finding the trims to make the speakers play at the same level; finding the crossover frequencies for each speaker and reporting them to the bass management system; and creating room correction filters for each speaker including the sub.

We work closely with our licensees to make sure our algorithms are implemented exactly as required by our specs. However, we can not control the implementation of processes such as bass management that are implemented by them. So, depending on the method used by the manufacturer we provide them with the best possible information about crossovers that fits within their implementation.

Regarding our other technologies. The way you know what you are getting is by looking at the logo or on our website. A product that enabled for a MultEQ Pro calibration will have that listed on the box. A product that runs Audyssey Dynamic EQ will have a front panel logo to indicate that.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Chiris:

In the above thread you wrote: " When discussing speakers designed to the THX spec that meant that if a speaker has a -3 dB cutoff point of 80 Hz or above it should be called Large and if it can go below 80 Hz it should be called Small."

I believe you wrote the opposite of what you intended. Speakers with a -3 dB of 80 Hz or below are usually called Large while speakers with a -3 dB above 80 Hz are called small.

Best regards,

Jeff

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

oops. Thanks Jeff. I will edit the post to fix that. It's good to see that someone was paying attention!

Best
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Chris- Thanks for your informative posts. Robert Fowkes (RAF) and I attended an Audyssey demo at CEDIA this year and were amazed by the Audyssey Dynamic EQ portion of the demo. So much so that we both bought Denon AVR-3808s and plan on having the Audyssey Pro upgrade done. Can you briefly explain how Dynamic EQ works because I don't think that many people are aware of it.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

When the Audyssey EQ setting is activated on my Onkyo 705, why would it produce a humming sound from my (SVS) subwoofer? When I set the EQ to "Off", the hum goes away. Any ideas why? I thought it was a ground loop issue, but I only hear it when "Audyssey" is selected in the EQ settings on the 705.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ

Chris, let me add my welcome to you here at the HTF. I know that we have a lot of insiders who lurk here and it's nice to be able to get information directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak, insofar as specifics are concerned. We appreciate any insight that you can provide regarding the truth and the myths regarding audyssey, as your busy schedule permits. We offer an environment that has really only three major guidelines - no politics, no religion, no personal attacks. In a civil environment a lot can be learned through dialogue. Our moderators do an excellent job keeping things from degenerating into less than civil exchanges. That's what we feel differentiates us from a lot of "other" sites. One can come here to ask questions and, hopefully, get knowledgeable answers.

Incidentally, Adam and I recently returned from a conference. As we walked out the door (almost literally!) of our respective houses on opposite coasts our Audyssey Pro installation kits were being delivered. I hope to get to a full 32 point Audyssey Pro calibration (with dynamic EQ) on my 3808 some time next week. I have to say that the Audyssey classes and demos that I attended at CEDIA were truly ear-opening. I knew about Audyssey from my Denon 3806 but Dynamic EQ was new to me and the demonstration of it in action blew me away.

Thanks for participating.

(Administrative Note: I have taken the liberty of changing the title of this thread to more correctly reflect the nature of the contents now being discussed. Not only will it steer members to it but it also takes away the confrontational tone that I mentioned previously. This is in no way meant to disrespect the starter of the thread, Joe Puck.)

Re: Audyssey MultEQ on my Onkyo 705 stinks

Hi Joe,

My best guess at this would be that there is a dip in the subwoofer room response near 60 Hz. MultEQ XT is trying to fill that in and when it does you also hear the hum that is there being amplified.

I had a similar problem in my room and traced it to a two-position (high and low) in a floor-standing lamp. Is the sub plugged in to the same circuit as the rest of your system? Do you have any light dimmers? Those are all suspects..

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Thanks for the reply, Chris. I read the Audyssey story in Home Theater Magazine recently - nicely done. I'd like your suggestion on what to do. The Audyssey calibration set my PSB Image Series (all five) to "Full Band" on my Onkyo 705. I have an SVS subwoofer, and after discussion with them, I changed my five speakers to 80Hz, and set the LPF of LFE on the Onkyo to 100Hz - all after running the Audyssey calibration, and the hum was born. I wonder if changing the LPF of LFE might help? Or should I run the Audyssey setup again and leave everything alone (at "Full Band")? I can hear audible benefits using the Audyssey setting on the EQ, but the hum is frustrating during quiet scenes. Thanks again for your help.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi Joe,

The SVS suggestions are good. You are right to apply them after you run Audyssey as all internal settings of the receiver are ignored during calibration.

I am fairly certain that the hum in your system is always there, but you hear it more when Audyssey applies EQ to the sub (which probably includes a boost at 60 Hz where the electrical hum would be).

You could verify if the hum is always there by turning Audyssey off and turning up the master volume on the 705 to see if you can hear the hum. If so, then it means it's always there and you have to start looking for other culprits.

Light dimmers, computers, and cable boxes can all cause this. Try disconnecting any of these from their power outlets and see if it goes away. Turn off light dimmers and check. Also, disconnect the cable TV cable from the equipment as that often brings hum.

Let us know what you find.

Best,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Chris (and all),

After reading several threads, and going through 2 Onkyo 705s, I decided to get the 805, and there is NO HUM whatsoever! There's definitely and issue with the 705. I ran the Audyssey EQ on the new 805 and then changed my speaker settings to 80Hz, with the LPF of LFE set at 100Hz. What a difference! It sounds like my PSB speakers were upgraded!

If I change the settings like I explained, will I lose any of the Audyssey EQ sound quality benefits, when I changed my speakers from "Full Band" to 80Hz? Thanks for your help.

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Joe,

Switching to "small" and 80 Hz will not affect the Audyssey MultEQ filters.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Thanks, Chris. I'm really liking what I'm hearing, and 'tweaking' is fun sometimes. One more thing: when I am doing my Audyssey setup, is there a 'correct order' for positioning the mic, outside of the first and primary position? If I'm doing 6 measurements, would the order that I place them in make an audible difference? Here's the order I did mine in:
____

4 5 6
3 1 2

1 is the main seat (mine) and 4,5,6 are in front, slightly lower than 3,1,2. Thanks!

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

It is my understanding that once the primary position has been established then each successive measurement is based on the parameters (distance, output, frequencies, etc.) that were established by the primary measurement (#1). As you move the microphone around (assuming you keep don't mess with any dials) the computer in the receiver can tell exactly where each new location is from the baseline data and factor the measurements into the final calibration accordingly. As with anything involving calibration, more data is better, so I always recommend the maximum number of data points. With the Denon 3806 it was 6 points and with the 3808 it was 8 points. It's probably not a bad idea to try to choose a variety of points either where people might sit or, if you are the main user of your system, around the primary position. Maybe Chris can shed some light on this.

Incidently, the "Pro" version of Audyssey can collect data for up to 32 points, I believe (doing my first calibration next week) so the tuning of the room can be much more precise. It also incorporates the dynamic equalization on the Denon units as well. (See the audyssey website for more details.)

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Robert is correct. The order of the measurements does not matter after the first one. The first position is used to calculate distances (delays), but after that you can use any order.

Regards,
Chris

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Hi, Chris. I've been reading about Audyssey and wanting to try it out since it was introduced in a high-end Denon, and just recently bought an Onkyo 705 with it. I'm very happy with the sound clarity (especially dialogue) that the Audyssey setup provides in my room. Thanks for developing such an impressive performance booster!

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I have a question about dynamic equaliztion. I do like this idea ... in theory. My problem or question is this: Does the amount of eq depend on the volume knob setting, or the actual level of the recording?

I.e., let's say I play a very well mastered CD from the early days of CD, for me the volume setting would be let's say -32 dB. So now I play a recently produced maximized, limited, compressed CD, and the volume control setting for the same apparent volume in my room is -40 dB. What happens with dynamic eq? And then how about a DVD? My std DVD listening is at -25 dB. But the apparent volume for all of those in my room is about the same, hence the amount of dynamic eq should be the same. But I bet it isn't. But I'd be curious if it is!

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

Does the Audyssey EQ only work with a digital signal or could it be used with playback via the 5 channel by pass for SA-CD , as in the Denon 3808?

Re: Audyssey MultEQ: Questions and Answers - Onkyo, Denon, et. al.

I just ran through it about an hour ago with my new 4308 Denon.

Very impressive!