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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

#1
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10/15/07 at 6:26am
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I am surprised there are no threads discussing this excellent film. It looks like a legal drama, but as the title hints, it's more of a character study of sorts. Clooney continues to impress with choices and performances.


I do have a question:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
Much of the drama hinges on the danger that Arthur Edens' bizarre reversal represents for Unorth. But how real is that danger (in real life)? Don't the obvious ethical violations invalidate any material he might provide to the other side?


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#2
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10/15/07 at 7:14am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

I saw this over the weekend as well. With the reviews being as good as they are, I was expecting more; I thought it was OK, but not much more than that, although the cast is certainly very good. In any event, I seem to be somewhat in the minority on this one, as the word-of-mouth I had heard was also extremely positive.

H, I'm not sure I get your question:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show

What ethical violations are you referring to? That document was devastating to U-North's entire position, so any shenanigans that might have occurred in bringing it to light would not have shielded them from the consequences of the truth coming out.


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#3
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10/15/07 at 7:49am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Holy cow where have you been?

Quote:
What ethical violations are you referring to?
Attorney-client privilege. I guess I was thinking in strictly legal terms (or at least my understanding thereof). On TV, it often seems that lawyers often find ways to contain that sort of stuff by having judges issue gag orders (on a crazy man, ha), declare this and that inadmissible on this and that ground. But you are right, there would really be no escaping the consequences, even outside of the court room.

I liked the film a lot but I do have some issues: I would have liked to see more of what makes Clayton a "fixer". Or even a janitor. I would have liked to see him succesfully mop up something. The hit and run case was meant to establish this, but he didn't really do anything other than tell the guy know that he needs to retain a local attorney immediately. Again, the point that he is not a miracle worker is well taken. But I am not sure what exactly he accomplished there.

The resolution relied on a terrible cliche that I wish writers would do away with for good.

And I am not exactly sure the film earned that relatively lenghty coda -- I am not sure I know Clayton enough to relate. Still, a great time. I may see it again, for the nuances I missed. The languid pace, elements of the direction and setting are favorably reminiscent of The Insider, although this is nowhere as accomplished as that masterpiece.

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#4
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10/15/07 at 8:01am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Attorney-client privilege only applies to a confidential communication made by the client to the attorney. It does not protect the underlying information itself; just imagine if it did, then no evidence would ever be admissible--you would just have to talk to your lawyer. The memo in the film was not originally a communication between the company and the law firm. I can only assume that the plaintiffs' attorneys had made a discovery request for all relevant documents, and Wilkinson's firm not turning it over was unethical in the first place.

I was only so so on the film, too. The movie begins terrifically with Wilkinson's words, and the scene where Clooney declares himself a janitor. After that, I don't think the film maintains the momentum. Watching Sydney Pollock chew people out became the most fun in the film. I especially didn't believe in the following plot point:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
That everyone just thought Clayton died in the bombing. The two hired guys were very professional when they dealt with Wilkinson, so I have a hard time believing they didn't take a look at the car and see no body there.
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#5
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10/15/07 at 8:05am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

OK, I see what you mean about the legal questions. I was asking the question because it seemed obvious to me that the public beating they would take would far outweigh any legal procedures they might be able to rely on in court to squash the evidence; I guess you pretty much agree anyway.


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#6
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10/15/07 at 8:18am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Watching Sydney Pollock chew people out became the most fun in the film.
I was just thinking that he is one of the handful of actors who excel at this sort of character. Like Philip Baker-Hall or Christopher Plummer. These guys have elevated corruption and soullessness in the corridors of power into an art form -- it is almost endearing.

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#7
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10/15/07 at 10:35am
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*** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

This thread is now designated the Official Discussion Thread for "Michael Clayton". Please, post all comments, links to outside reviews, film and box office discussion items to this thread.

All HTF member film reviews of "Michael Clayton" should be posted to the Official Review Thread.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.


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#8
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10/15/07 at 10:56am
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Re: Michael Clayton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Tsai
Attorney-client privilege only applies to a confidential communication made by the client to the attorney. It does not protect the underlying information itself; just imagine if it did, then no evidence would ever be admissible--you would just have to talk to your lawyer. The memo in the film was not originally a communication between the company and the law firm. I can only assume that the plaintiffs' attorneys had made a discovery request for all relevant documents, and Wilkinson's firm not turning it over was unethical in the first place.

I was only so so on the film, too. The movie begins terrifically with Wilkinson's words, and the scene where Clooney declares himself a janitor. After that, I don't think the film maintains the momentum. Watching Sydney Pollock chew people out became the most fun in the film. I especially didn't believe in the following plot point:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
That everyone just thought Clayton died in the bombing. The two hired guys were very professional when they dealt with Wilkinson, so I have a hard time believing they didn't take a look at the car and see no body there.

With regards to your spoilerized portion I ask this: Would you stick around to check?

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#9
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10/15/07 at 12:30pm
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Re: Michael Clayton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_M
With regards to your spoilerized portion I ask this: Would you stick around to check?
My thought exactly. And in response to Holadem's point above, in a sense we do get to see Clayton's work as a "fixer". In order to make the film's conclusion happen, a lot of fancy footwork has to be done with various government offices and agencies (I'm trying to be vague here) and probably some media outlets. It's exactly the kind of job for which you'd need a well-connected, miracle-working "fixer".

I once met such a guy. His major claim to (non)fame was that he'd managed to keep a series of very dramatic photos involving the death of a famous politician, in seriously compromising circumstances, from ever seeing the light of publication. I have no idea how he accomplished it. Today the same gentleman occupies a very high position in corporate America. I have no idea how he did that either.

M.
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#10
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10/15/07 at 1:31pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Michael,
What did you think of the film?






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#11
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10/15/07 at 1:37pm
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Re: Michael Clayton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_M
With regards to your spoilerized portion I ask this: Would you stick around to check?

I wouldn't, but I'm not in that business. For these two guys, yeah, I expected them to do so.

Michael, I can't wait to see your guy's story on screen.
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#12
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10/15/07 at 1:40pm
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Re: Michael Clayton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Tsai
I wouldn't, but I'm not in that business. For these two guys, yeah, I expected them to do so.

Michael, I can't wait to see your guy's story on screen.
Such a loud explosion would bring people to it rather quickly even for an early morning Westchester County.
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#13
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10/15/07 at 3:21pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Michael,
What did you think of the film?
Truly exceptional. Tony Gilroy has been quoted as saying that he got the idea when he was following lawyers around while working on the script for The Devil's Advocate, and he gets so much right that it's pretty scary. I agree with comments above that the film isn't really about the legal system, but the authenticity of the environment makes Michael Clayton's predicament feel so much more compelling than something gussied up for Hollywood.

Take Tilda Swinton's in-house counsel. I've met that person. The portrayal is perfection, down to the tiniest detail of the jewelry and clothing. Or Sydney Pollack's hatchet man, played by Michael O'Keefe. Every firm has at least one guy like that; I used to work for one of them. Or the way Pollack's Marty Bach cuts right to the bottom line with Clayton; the very best firm leaders do it just like that.

But my single favorite performance in the whole film was Tom Wilkinson's -- the way he snaps back and forth between seeming unhinged and giving you glimpses of the strategic legal mind that successfully managed uNorth's defense for all those years (the scene where he explains the New York law of involuntary commitment is brilliant). To me the film was a portrait of two guys who reached the same crossroad at different times and by different routes. In one direction, you have Sidney Pollack's Marty Bach saying, "After all these years, I gotta tell you how we pay the rent around here?". In the other, you have something that you know is right, but it's much more uncertain and much, much scarier. I think a lot of people find themselves at that crossroad, often more than once. It may not always be a matter of life and death, but it's still important.

M.
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#14
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10/15/07 at 3:59pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
The hit and run case was meant to establish this, but he didn't really do anything other than tell the guy know that he needs to retain a local attorney immediately.
Well, he was in a bad mood at the time -- he might not have even been trying. He was certainly on his game in that final confrontation, which I thought played really well. Tilda's reaction too.

Too bad that scene is highlighted in the trailers, because you end up expecting it.
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#15
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10/15/07 at 4:55pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Truly exceptional. Tony Gilroy has been quoted as saying that he got the idea when he was following lawyers around while working on the script for The Devil's Advocate, and he gets so much right that it's pretty scary. I agree with comments above that the film isn't really about the legal system, but the authenticity of the environment makes Michael Clayton's predicament feel so much more compelling than something gussied up for Hollywood.

Take Tilda Swinton's in-house counsel. I've met that person. The portrayal is perfection, down to the tiniest detail of the jewelry and clothing. Or Sydney Pollack's hatchet man, played by Michael O'Keefe. Every firm has at least one guy like that; I used to work for one of them. Or the way Pollack's Marty Bach cuts right to the bottom line with Clayton; the very best firm leaders do it just like that.

But my single favorite performance in the whole film was Tom Wilkinson's -- the way he snaps back and forth between seeming unhinged and giving you glimpses of the strategic legal mind that successfully managed uNorth's defense for all those years (the scene where he explains the New York law of involuntary commitment is brilliant). To me the film was a portrait of two guys who reached the same crossroad at different times and by different routes. In one direction, you have Sidney Pollack's Marty Bach saying, "After all these years, I gotta tell you how we pay the rent around here?". In the other, you have something that you know is right, but it's much more uncertain and much, much scarier. I think a lot of people find themselves at that crossroad, often more than once. It may not always be a matter of life and death, but it's still important.

M.
So... Which of the characters are you?

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#16
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10/15/07 at 5:11pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
So... Which of the characters are you?
In my younger years, I would have been one of the spooked associates in the motel room, bringing Clayton up to speed on the uNorth case. Later, I might have been one of the crowd pulling an all-nighter to get the settlement done. But now, thankfully, I no longer work in that kind of operation.

Getting back to the film: I think the point of the hit-and-run consultation is a little different, and it doesn't become clear until much later in the film. What we don't know when we first see it is that Clayton has already had it. He can't bring himself to continue doing what he used to do, but he's only just realizing it himself. So instead of holding the client's hand and trying to do damage control, he pretty much blows the guy off. What this allows us to see is this marvellously revealing display of a rich prick's sense of self-justifying entitlement. ("Yeah, I ran someone down and left the scene, but it's not my fault and why should I suffer for it?")

BTW, the couple in that scene are played by two Tony-award winning NY theater actors, Denis O'Hare and Julie White, and they're both superb. With minimal screen time (and in White's case, almost no words), they give you the essence of who those people are.

M.
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#17
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10/16/07 at 4:29am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Saw this over the weekend. Outstanding. This and In the Valley of Elah are perhaps my two favorite movies of the year so far.

Not sure, but I think the scene in the hotel at the end was filmed at the Hyatt in Jersey City, right on the Hudson River. Had quite a few meetings in there; nice building.

Thought Clooney, Swinton and Wilkinson were all great - all deserve Oscar nominations.


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#18
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10/16/07 at 5:53am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Favate
Not sure, but I think the scene in the hotel at the end was filmed at the Hyatt in Jersey City, right on the Hudson River.
Making allowances for the fact that a certain type of hotel looks very much the same no matter where you are, I'm pretty sure it's the New York Hilton on Sixth. That's where Clooney exits, and it's a favorite convention spot in midtown. The American Bar Association has most of their NYC meetings there.

M.
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#19
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10/16/07 at 6:15am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Clayton is a pretty smart guy with connections galore. If he is as unhappy with his job as he appears to be (apparrently he was sidelined in his own firm), why not move accross the street to some other firm? Why remain an associate for 17 years (which I understand is unusual)?

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#20
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10/16/07 at 7:05am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

First of all, being an associate for 17 years isn't uncommon anymore. What's uncommon, especially in New York, is being promoted to partner. (Oh, and being a "partner" ain't what it used to be, since almost no firm today is a general partnership where all the partners are equal. But I digress.)

Second, Clayton isn't an associate. He's a "Special Counsel", which is one of several categories that firms have invented for people that they don't want to lose but, for whatever reason, won't make partner.

And third, there's never any indication of what Clayton is being paid in his current job, but it's probably a lot. If Marty Bach is as smart as Sidney Pollack plays him, he's paying Clayton enough to make it hard for him to match it elsewhere. Law firms of today do not hire someone of Clayton's vintage for their skills; they only hire them for their book of business, something that Clayton clearly does not have and has not been encouraged to develop. (If he had, he'd have the leverage to demand a partnership.)

And finally, there's a strong suggestion that Clayton feels personally obligated to the firm for bailing him out of gambling debts and getting him out of his gambling addiction many years earlier. And his personal friendship with Arthur obviously means a lot to him.

M.
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#21
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10/16/07 at 5:29pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Making allowances for the fact that a certain type of hotel looks very much the same no matter where you are, I'm pretty sure it's the New York Hilton on Sixth. That's where Clooney exits, and it's a favorite convention spot in midtown. The American Bar Association has most of their NYC meetings there.

M.


I am pretty sure you are right as I have also been to the PGA (Post Graduate Anesthesia) meeting there a few times. I recognized it immediately.
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#22
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10/22/07 at 9:32pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Took this film in tonight. I liked it, but kind of wanted a bit more. Still, it's a competent thriller. It's certainly slow at the beginning but it builds steadily and is successful in hooking you in.

Tom Wilkenson was fabulous. Always good though.

Ok, one quick question:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
When Marty (Sydney Pollack) gets the call that M.Clayton was dead, he takes a deep breath. Relieved or astonished? I'm assuming he was in on it somehow?
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#23
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10/23/07 at 4:29am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Tim, I read Pollock's reaction as similar to his conversation with Clooney about Wilkinson, that he was both saddened and relieved, and therefore he had a bit, but just a little bit, of guilt. I don't think he knew anything about the hired guns; it seemed to me that Tilda Swinton's character intentionally shielded everyone else from the operation.
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#24
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10/23/07 at 6:29am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Yeah, that's what I was leaning toward too. Thanks Kirk.

One thing is certain, there weren't many moments with Clooney NOT on screen.
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#25
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10/23/07 at 8:30am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Tilda's Swinton'c character and performance may have been my favorite. Under that veneer of control, her nervous wrecks of a character proves to be way in over her head in that world, as evidenced by a series of astonishingly bad decisions. Her performance succeeds in selling the more egregious thriller elements (car bomb?!) which would otherwise seem out of place in a film grounded in realism.

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#26
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10/24/07 at 6:25am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Tilda was excellent H. Excellent. Perhaps this will garner her a supporting actress nom?
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#27
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10/24/07 at 8:39am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover
Tilda was excellent H. Excellent. Perhaps this will garner her a supporting actress nom?

Agreed, and I think Tom Wilkinson could earn one, as well. It's that perfect type of performance that they love to recognize in that category.

Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it meant to roast in the depths of the Sloar that day I can tell you.

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#28
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10/24/07 at 10:46pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Good call on Tom. He was top notch too. Not too over the top but just enough to make you believe.
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#29
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3/17/08 at 10:54pm
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Just watched this a second time on DVD. It was even better.

Over in the Oscar noms. thread, there was talk about people who found this film "boring". I shudder to think what it would take to interest those people.

M.
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#30
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3/18/08 at 5:15am
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Re: *** Official MICHAEL CLAYTON Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Just watched this a second time on DVD. It was even better.

Over in the Oscar noms. thread, there was talk about people who found this film "boring". I shudder to think what it would take to interest those people.

M.

Agreed. I was riveted.

Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it meant to roast in the depths of the Sloar that day I can tell you.

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