HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Well, I watched it this afternoon, my butt still hurts.



It was definately one of the best sound experiences I've ever had. I just love it when the Transformers talk, lol, it sounds so neat. That deep bass rumble, yummmmm.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

How does Paramount claim this is a space issue when 24-bit DD+ actually uses MORE space than Dolby THD at 16 bits? I agree that since the audio is obviously reference quality, it's really not worth bitching and moaning about (unless you're a bitter Blu fan). I find it interesting that people keep chiming into these threads who DON'T have HD-DVD players, have no plans to get HD-DVD players, and lastly, have yet to even hear the DD+ track from this release.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I'm not sure that it does use more space.

Doug

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I have updated my review to reflect the Web-enabled features that went live today. Very cool items that add a lot to the experience, and I'm very interested to see what else Paramount will add as it goes.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I think it would be much more interesting to have you participate in a proper double blind test between PCM and 1.5 MBPS DD+. Then your "I can hear the difference" claims would be put to the true test. Open comparisons with this sort of thing are useless.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Pat- My comment wasn't directed to your review.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Here's the deal on TrueHD vs. DD+...

DD+ is a constant bit rate codec. TrueHD is a variable bit rate codec. DD+ can have up to 24-bit resolution at whatever bit rate the audio is encoded at. If the bit rate drops too low, there would, obviously, be compression related artifacts in the sound. At the 1.5 mb/s rate used by Paramount and Universal, most experts agree that DD+ delivers a virtually transparent reproduction of a 24-bit uncompressed master. Warner uses mostly 16-bit encodes, hence the DD+ bit rate of their discs mostly at 640 kb/s.

As the resolution of TrueHD goes up, so does the bit rate. At 16-bit/48 kHz resolution, TrueHD has an average bit rate ~1.4 mb/s. While the overall file size of a 16-bit TrueHD track is similar to a DD+ track at 1.5 mb/s, there are bit rate peaks over 3 mb/s in the TrueHD track. When the bit budget is allocated for a given disc, the peak bit rate for the video encode will be set based on the peak bit rate of all other material running simultaneously. That means all audio tracks based on PEAK bit rate, not average, as well as IME or anything else running at the same time as the video.

The video compression codec will have some bearing on decision for audio. VC-1, being the most efficient of the three used on HD DVD and Blu-ray, will generally allow for more space allocated to audio. Of all the movies that I am aware of over 2 hours on HD DVD that also contain TrueHD, all are VC-1 video encodes. For those that don't know, Transformers is AVC. Whether or not that had anything to do with not having enough space for a lossless audio track is open to speculation.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I have had the opportunity to hear PCM soundtracks and the 1.5 MBPS , compared them for over 2 hours. This was in Los Angeles a year ago at a sound designers convention. I am not a sound designer but was invited by a friend out there, and I can honestly say that after comparing 5 different sources of different types (music, movies,ect), the PCM beat the 1.5 by a MILE, a complete difference every time in richness, separation, frequency quality, bass response (crystal clear), and crispness. For Paramount to deny a lossless track on this release is absolutely unforgiveable....so take off a few of the extras and give us the movie in the best quality possible. I think many hd-dvd titles suffer from using only Dolby Digital Plus because of disc space limits. There are many more uncompressed titles on blu-ray. Every single Sony/Columbia/MGM/Fox title has either PCM or DTS Master sound, every single one! These studios are surely showing what can be "heard." I find it funny that hd-dvd's statement is the look AND SOUND of perfect, when a good percentage of their releases only have Dolby Digital Plus (and to the discerning ear, there is a major difference).

If I am going to plop down 30.00 for a movie, I want what I deserve for that price. All they had to do was add an extra disc, and give us lossless for the film.

If this is what Paramount is going to do, then their defection from blu-ray is no big deal for me. And no, I am not a blu-ray boy anymore, I am neutral, I just want the movies, and am looking at the Samsung combi-player coming out. But the fact remains, everyone was ripped off on the soundtrack of this film. If we all didn't buy it and relayed to Paramount the reason, something would be done about this.but people are settling for 2nd best for their ears and paying premium prices for a movie..all (or almost all, I am not sure) of Paramount's announced releases and all previous releases, even on blu-ray (where there surely was room), have no lossless. With 4 lossless formats (DTS HD and Master, PCM and Dolby True) there's no reason for this. This one is a no-buy for me.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I know, nor was it taken as such.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I have to admit that I was not overly impressed with the sound in this movie either. After reading the glowing reviews of the aq I thought something must be wrong with my setup. I am still going to go and see if I had something wrong. But, for example, the initial battle scene was less than impressive. There seemed to be a lot of explosions that I could see but not hear and it seemed to be muffled. I tried it with the 5.1 analog out and then replayed it with DTS. The voices were amazing but for me the whole thing was missing the top end of the sound. That really sucks for me because I really loved this movie and couldn't wait for it to come out.

I am using a XA2 player with a Denon 5800. All my other movies look and sound fantastic. I recently did the firmware upgrade on my XA2 so I am going to see if that changed anything.

I am a bit concerned because everyone is using the term "reference quality" to describe this movie. Am I missing something? A setting maybe?

Don

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Interesting. Your experience is directly contradicted by "Filmmixer" on AVS, who says there is no difference between 1.5 Mbps DD+ and the film master. Were your comparisons done double blind and properly level matched? People often hear what they expect to hear, which is wny the blind comparison is a necessity.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

It sounds like you may definitely have a problem with your setup somewhere. You appear to be having a completely opposite experience than reviewers and owners of this disc have reported.

I know the 5800 isn't HDMI equipped, so are you using the analog outs on your XA2 and running them to your 5800?

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

There already is a second disc.

By all accounts, it appears that you ARE getting what you pay for: A reference quality track. Have you actually heard it yet? You simply can't make blanket comments based on the audio format and claim you're being ripped off without having heard the master OR the disc itself.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I too was underwhelmed with the sound, but I am slumming it with an A2, connected via optical, which means that my player decodes to Dolby, then re-encodes to DTS. I can't see how there could NOT be a loss of fidelity doing so.

It was not bad of course, but it just failed to rock my world as I would have expected given the reviews. To date, the best sound I have heard in my room is the uncompressed PCM tracks on 5th Element.

In any event, I am looking to upgrade to a XA2 or maybe an A35, that way I can use the 5.1 analogs. I look forward to hearing this again without my player having to do a dance on the soundtrack.

The PQ however, we quite good...better in fact than the DLP projection I saw of the film when it was in the theater. There was something amiss about that presentation, as there was severe grain in a few places around the half-way point of the film. The HD-DVD was, on my set, completely clear and grain free. The contrast and color saturation seemed to be very faithful to the film as I remember it, lack or grain not withstanding.

Brian

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I missed your post before I posted....

That's it completely...it seems that things were a bit rolled off on the top. No one likes a soundtrack that is overly bright, but this one seems to have gone a bit in the opposite direction.

I see though that you have played it with the 5.1 analogs....so much for my thought that maybe the Dolby to DTS decode/encode was taking something away.

Brian

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I know my experience is totally the opposite up to this point. I do have it plugged in via 5.1 analog. I actually just went and tried it on every setting I have on my Denon and it just isn't what I expected. I have a lot of HD and BR titles and I know how this should sound but as someone else put it, it just didn't rock my world. maybe I am expecting too much.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I picked this up this morning at Target and just spun about 15 minutes. WOW! This is one most impressive DD+ track, the best I've heard todate, from low to high end it is awesome, and that video, it's damn near (if not) perfect).

It's going to be one hell-of-a movie night tonight, 5 people coming over, none of which have been in my HT or seen the film.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

OK, now I know something is wrong. Yet another post about how great this movie sounds. I did some more checking on my system and noticed that when I have it on 5.1 analog my sub does very little. But, when I put it on DTS it rocks. I have a tech coming over today. Hopefully he will figure out was is going on and I will be able to hear this movie like everyone else.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Low LFE is pretty common on the analogs of some of these players. I have no experience with the XA2 (yet!), but IIRC, there was a firmware update that supposedly fixed it.

You can download the updates from this link:

http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-i...ngfirmware.asp

You might also have a look over at AVS....there are several threads relating to your player.

Brian

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

If you have the analogs hooked up, verify that all the cables are tight and the sub out is going to your analog sub in. Go through the Denon setup again to verify speaker levels.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I did all that. I ran the test tone and checked all the levels. I just had my tech out hear and he said the same thing. The sound is just weak on 5.1. He seems to think that it may be my XA2. I checked the firmware and it says that it is up to date. I am going to rent the regular version and put it in my BR player and see what that sounds like.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Don

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Just took it for a spin last night and WOW. Best sound I've heard coming from my slum xbox 360 add-on. I selected DTS to pass 1.5 out to my receiver. Nice bass and the dialog is actually discernible without having to fiddle with the remote.

PQ was excellent even tho Micheal Bay movies seem to pump the contrast a bit. Night time shots were excellent as the blacks and colors stood in stark contrast.

My new reference!

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Wow thats interesting because I would defiantly say that this film is NOT grain free. I'm seeing plenty of natural film grain, and that is not a bad thing at all. But it surely not grain free.

Doug

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Well, I won't argue that, but it was at a level where I did not notice it.

Having been literally shocked by how bad some sections of the Theatrical DPL presentation looked, I was very curious to see if the HD-DVD looked the same, and in comparison to the DPL presentation I saw, the HD-DVD looked much better.

Brian

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Oh okay got ya.

Doug

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

We were not told which soundtrack was playing first, so it was a blind test, of all the source material. If DD+ were the same as the master, there wouldn't be Dolby True:-)

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

Man, I can't wait to join in on this discussion. My copy probably won't arrive until tomorrow and I don't know when I'll get to listen to it LOUD. Keeping the volume reasonable is one of the sacrifices I have to make with a 20 month old sleeping in another part of the house and this is a movie that begs to have it cranked.

Don, have you tried changing the XA2 to PCM from bitstream when playing out over the analogs? Yes, I know the setting should have nothing to do with the analog out, but on evidently it does on the XA2.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I don't know if you've done this yet, but set all of your speakers to 'LARGE' in the XA2's setup. This effectively disables the XA2's bass processing, and lets your reciever do the dirty work.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I also thought the top end was a bit low when compared to the regular DVD. I'm using a Toshiba AX2 running coax to my processor.

Re: HTF HD-DVD Review: Transformers (Highly Recommended)

I have it set ti PCM but I don't have the speakers all set to large. That is a good idea. I did find an issue with my sub's cable. I replaced it and it sounded better. Then I changed my Denon to DTS and then I was blown away. Talk about rearranging your internal organs acoustically!!!! I will go and change the speaker setting now and see if that works.

Thanks,

Don