A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Maybe until the next generation. Remember it is all about selling product in the end.

To tell you the truth I am not sure if I really want to hear from people who cannot stand up to the polite discussion that has happened in this tread.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Are you kidding me? We're in the middle of a format war and we don't have anybody knocking down our door to sell their product and swing the war into their favor by discussing issues about their presentations. What makes you believe it's going to happen for the next generation of home video?

Furthermore, being dogmatic in discussing an issue is not polite discussion in my book.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I guess we have different "books" then and see this thread differently.

Why are we in a format war? To sell product and make money, not for the love of film. Someone will always have the inside scoop, be it from them personally or on a DVD behind the scenes, commentary, book, or whatever. The information will flow even after this thread is long gone. People like to talk and companies like to make money. I have no doubt about that.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I would just like to clarify that I am certianly not taking an "Anti-Mack" stance here. Just an "Anti-Redundancy" stance.

In fact, Dave, I would say that it is entirely due to you and this discussion that I felt compelled to go out and buy this title on Blu-Ray. If it weren't for this discussion I doubt I ever would have purchased the title. With all the excitment over the title, I wanted to check it out for myself.

I never saw the film in the theater, but I did at one time own the superbit DVD a while ago. I don't recall the exact colors in the DVD edition, and had I seen the Blu-Ray without reading any of this discussion, I doubt that any bells would have gone off in my head saying "hey it's different!" That can purely be attributed to my memory and not due to any calibration issues.

FWIW, I thought the Blu-Ray transfer was beautiful, and I didn't see any issues with over-crushed blacks. The words on the wall were very faint, but definately there.

My system is a PS3 connected to a Denon AVR-2807 reciever connected to an Optoma HD70 780p DLP front projector completely through an HDMI connection. My screen is a 106" in a completely light controlled room. My projector is calibrated using HD-Digital Video Essentials via a Toshiba HD-XA2 on the same HDMI path (HD-XA2 -> Denon -> Optoma).

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I think I know what your saying...
just that "dogmatic" refers to papal (as in: infallibility or supremacy) as what would be considered here: "The Powers That Be".
Isn't it your intent to dissuade 'us' (the non-professionals) from discussing (because its "not polite") such issues?
Thanks.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Ed,
I don't know what you're trying to imply with your comments. My intent is that sometimes it's best to just let it go, even if you don't accept a line of reasoning. At times, we're just going to disagree and that's about it.






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Got u!
Not trying to imply anything.
Just wasn't sure how you were trying to use "dogmatic", in reference to non-professionals posting on this matter.

EDitEDbyED:
Thanks RAH, for yesterdays "update"!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

This isn't "my" thread, and there is nothing wrong with discussion, but when those responsible for the final product are willing to discuss how it came to be, and are then told ad nauseam that they are wrong, they are likely to steer clear of discussion in the future.

Wouldn't you?

I viewed the BD disc, saw the handwritten overlay, and am willing to spend a few moments re-checking it if you'll post -- once again -- the time code, so that I don't have to search. I have no way of posting an image on line, but am open to taking one last look to confirm my earlier findings.

As I've noted previously, nothing on the production end of home video is simple. There are layers of color and density built one upon the next based upon scanning. In a project that I've just completed there are literally dozens of modifications, one upon the next, that have been set in place to make something appear correct.

In the final analysis anything can go wrong at any level, which doesn't help, but those responsible for Dracula are happy with and have signed off on the results.

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

What's the Answer Print for, if no-one's in a position to actually check it against the video...especially in a case where there's such widespread dismay over a video transfer?

Wouldn't that end this (not that I'm not thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Why it's a source of consternation to anyone interested enough to still be reading at this point is beyond me)? But it won't happen, for a variety of reasons. Political, monetary.

I get the feeling the very idea of a double-check of this transfer would be an affront, an insult to some on this board.

So, again, what use the Answer Print? It's an Answer for nothing, arbiter for none.




--Jack

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

But the people involved with the creation of the transfer have already said it more closely matches the answer print. And people here don't believe them [which is their right and prerogative].

But what are you proposing now, that studios are supposed to open their vaults to let some internet forum guys do a comparison for themselves because they don't believe the word of the people involved?

Can you name any other large, legitimate business/industry that allows this?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I allowed that a check of the AP isn't going to happen, for a variety of reasons...which include what you cite. There are more. I couldn't rationally demand one.

I was making an ironic point that--apart from any Deus Ex Machina in the form of a surprise "second look" at the AP, we'll go right on having people confirm this transfer is correct by way of hearsay from the people that did the work, and video enthusiasts decrying it as a betrayal of the original, intended look...based on several previous video releases--and memories of theatrical experiences--with a decidedly different appearance.

And until someone on this board with a really good set of peepers can lay 'em on that AP, he or she won't be able to say--with any real authority--that what we have in the latest edition of Bram Stoker's Dracula is any way accurate.




--Jack

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Which is what we've been saying in two seperate threads. There is no check/balance system in place. "Is the new video correct: yes, because we say it is and you have no direct access to the original to refute it."

Conspiracy theorists have been working under this premise for decades: Who killed Kennedy, was the moon landing fake, holocaust deniers, why isn't there any airplane wreckage at the pentagon, the French have been inbreeding Jesus's kids for 2000 years, etc etc etc.

Undoubtedly the illuminati were responsible for producing this new BRD/DVD transfer.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

My scenarios are little more earth-bound:

Competent professionals did iffy work on an off day...

Or:

Under the direction of Francis Ford Coppola, the new transfer was taken in a subtly different direction. And in the name of not stoking broad customer dissatisfaction, SONY prefers that the official word on this one be that it's faithful.

Or:

It's faithful.


Or:

Illuminati, Freemasons, or The Order of Skull and Bones...



--Jack

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

As regards the use of an AP or other "reference" material, for my projects going the digital route, they are run side-by-side with data files as corrections are performed to scanned data.

It should be acknowledged that generally answer prints are not perfectly correct, as one should not be running an OCN repeated times to make small corrections best performed at the dupe stage. This is also true for dye transfer materials, which in many cases do not track terribly well on a continuous basis, and must be corrected on the digital side.

When a daily print returns from the lab after production of a new digital negative, it is again put up on screen against the AP or "reference."

The point being that whatever reference is being used, it is generally NOT screened, and then left to memory.

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Maybe the subtleties of the subdued color didn't come across well in NTSC. It's one of the reasons that the chroma information is eliminated from most B&W presentations on NTSC, you end up with a fair amount of chroma noise in B&W if you don't. Maybe the chroma noise was unacceptable in with a subdued color scheme .

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

FWIW, I'm not anti-Mack and I'm not saying Dave's crazy (read my post more closely; the phenomena I referred to come from the discipline of social cognition, which is how people make sense of the world. They are not diagnoses). It is so easy to misconstrue comments if you don't take the time to read them. I know I've done it on occasion.

Dave, if I offended you, I'm sorry. That was not my intention.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

no offense taken! (love your sig by the way!)

i agree that memory when looked back on is very unreliable.
anyways, happy holidays to all and i just want to honor my word of not saying anymore re: the transfer now.
just moved back to nyc with a baby, not sleeping much, in-laws, so my thought process is often wonky!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Say no more.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Finally picked up Bram Stoker's Dracula last night, as I got it as part of a sale. I had been afraid to get it up till now as a result of this thread and the pictures posted. At times I thought the print looked quite unremarkable and other times thought it was incredibly, detailed, colorful and beautiful. But I looked for the black crush scenes throughout the movie, and at no point did they come across on my display as the movie was running the way they look in the pictures posted here . . . for which I am very pleased.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I've also watched it over my Xmas break ... I have to agree. It looks great on my 1080p display. Spectacular at a few points.

This rates for me alongside a small number of other discs, 12 Monkeys being another, which show off hi-def's ability to show both what the filmmaker intended and the limitations they achieved it within (Coppola's being self-imposed as I recall).

That's a real treat and I am also very pleased.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I watched this last night. I have to say, I'm amazed there's so much controversy over this film.

For what it's worth, I was a huge fan of this film when it was released. I probably saw it a dozen times in the theater. In all the times I've seen it since then on VHS, LaserDisc, and DVD, I've always felt let down in a big way. The picture was never as I remembered it.

That was remedied last night when I watched the Blu-ray. I remember parts of this film being so dark in the theater that it was impossible to find the popcorn on the seat next to you. Those parts are back. I remember the effect of the diary writing being superimposed on the screen coming off as a very subtle effect - something I didn't catch until after multiple viewings. On the previous home video releases this subtlety was completely lost.

In watching this film on Blu-ray, I made sure to watch for the things people here had complained about. I saw none of them. My screen never showed me an image as washed out and strangely colored as any of the screen captures that have been shown here. There was film grain present throughout the whole picture - as there should be since the image originated on film (I'll never understand why people have a problem with this...) - which indicates beyond a shadow of a doubt that the full resolution of the original print is present and accounted for.

Also while watching, I was reminded of a few other things which were mentioned here - namely to do with screen calibration.

I distinctly recall one of the most vocal people who were slamming this disc stating that his monitor/projector/whatever had been calibrated with Video Essentials in his HD-DVD player.

I think this is an entirely invalid method of calibrating your image. The simple fact is, your HD-DVD player is not your Blu-ray player. There is nothing which should lead anyone to believe that the video output of one machine will match the video output of any other machine - be it the same format or an entirely different one. I wouldn't even go so far as to trust two machines of the same make and model to output precisely the same signal levels. Sure, they're gonna be close, but nothing is perfect.

With my own equipment, I've seen that calibrating my monitor by using a DVD with THX Optimizer on an upconverting DVD player results in a substantially different picture than the same DVD in my Blu-ray player into the same input. Additionally, using the 7669 pluge and other screens on a Sony Blu-ray disc shows further discrepancy between the formats. With the Blu-ray calibration screens, I was able to get a much better representation of where my sharpness and contrast settings should be. The other ways were all close, but the ultimate test - using my eyes across various source discs - proved that the Sony Blu-ray patterns were clearly superior for calibrating the picture.

I realize this is my first post here and I'm in no way trying to belittle the folks who already posted here. I'm sure they're familiar with their equipment and are capable of calibrating a monitor. I feel, however, that an assumption has been made regarding cross-calibrating with different hardware and I strongly feel that this -- while getting close -- doesn't get it close enough.

I feel this disc has suffered an unwarranted level of bad press. I would urge anyone interested in this title to check it out with their own eyes and form their own opinions.

hg

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I passed on this based on negative comments.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hi there, to the experts or can anyone explain why, despite the controversial colour corrections problems, this Blu Ray movie is in STANDARD DEFINITION.
In terms of definition this is the same as my DVD and Superbit DVD version.
TESTED at the same time on 2 same HDTV and 2 same Blu Ray players.
Any reasons for doing that. I paid considerably more to get the HD version and this movie is not at all an HD movie.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I can only think that you got the DVD in the BD package by mistake...?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Determining the resolution of a film transfered to video requires a full screen resolution chart. As there is no full screen resolution chart anywhere in Dracula, saying that it is SD resolution is kind of like saying that grass is suddenly growing on the far side of the moon.

Dracula on blu-ray defiantly displays more detail than the SD version, as looking at the fine print of the end titles will clearly show. Understand that this film used filtration on the camera lens that will reduce the apparent sharpness of the final image. Also the film stock used can have a huge effect on resolution. The higher the speed of the film, the less resolving power it has. This is not a flaw, it's the way its supposed to look.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I think I was the one that brought up the Digital Video Essentials. But I wasn't slamming this transfer at all. I think this is the best this film has ever looked.

You are right. You can't calibrate with one player and expect that calibration to work with another. Each player has its own idiosyncratic output levels. Fortunately, on my HDTV, each input has it's own settings, so I can put the DVE in each of my players and get almost exactly the same image from each.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hi, thank you, I do not think so, how can it be. It looks like that no one is actually realized about this as the quality of the older dvd and
superbit-dvd version was a more or less of good masterization. Not sure about the latest dvd collector edition. Who knows, may be is been actually downgraded?? definetely I do not want to spend extra money on another DVD just to make my good reliable testings. Anyway even so as You say it could be that I got a dvd version in the BD package, do you actually clearly see a HD picture quality if you got the previous DVD versions or you are not sure??
I also got copies of other films on dvd and BR and I can spot very clearly that there is a difference in HD when I play them one after another on the same machine. Saying so I would like to complain anyway about the quality of any HD movies about grain and noise. It could be better or may be this is marketing. Who knows, very soon there will be releases of the same again, just like more or less the SUPERBIT and extra money coming in their pockets
Regards Nicole
NB: Sorry about my non perfect english but it is not my main language.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hi, thank you. Not discussing the way they filmed it and indeed it is been transferred at HR1080p24 and my ps3 would give me a speed of 20mbs speed. It could also be transerred and spread on a 1000gb disc and quality will be the same. You are right; the only think that I can clearly see in HD is the final prints and also the menus. I bought this expensive BD version because I wanted to see a film in HD and not just the final prints or the menu in HD. I have not actually gone through all the posts but it seems that no one is more or less noticed that this is not an HD movie and I can see that all the talking is been only about the new colour corrections that is been given to this movie which it not what I am actually discussing as that would definitely be a matter of personal preferences. I must assume also that this is the same as the new DVD collector edition.
Anyway, I do not get you about saying that you can spot a clearly HD on this film. I believe many people is been doing a lot of confusion as they possibly at the end, spotted HD in the final prints, same as I did and you did.
Well, I properly tested it because I could not believe it the first time I was trying to watch it and before my testings. This film is been tested against my DVD and superbit DVD version (I got 2 same HDTV and 2 PS3 players) in many hundred still frames, as well as watching it at the same time in parts and I also found that some of the superbit frames, are actually possibly clearer or sharper, believe it or not, than BD.
Have you actually done the same testing or you rely on what you remember about a previous dvd experience also supported by the fact that this is a BD and we automatically think to see a better picture. Please, see if you can do the same testings as me, if you got a chanse and let me know. If I am wrong, the only think I can think of is that by mistake this UK version batch is been wrongly masterized with the lower but good quality DVD version. I doubt about it as I clearly spot HD in the menus and in the final prints. I also wrote to SONY and no answer yet after 3 weeks. Can you also explain this? I do not think this is the way it should look as it suppose to look like a HD BD or then the Dvd version, unless is been PQ downgraded on purpose, is the best option for the same money. Finally, the average quality on most of HD DVD and BR is poor compared to a good DVD version. I really think that they want us to believe that grass is growing somewhere there in the moon.
Regards Nicole
NB sorry about my English but I hope is understandable

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Well I don't know about you, but I can see the grain of the film. If you can see the grain, you are seeing more or less the full resolution that the film has to offer.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Your Blu-ray player knows when its playing a Blu-ray disc...the little blue light comes on the front of my machine. They also physically look different on the information side. So i always know when its a Blu-ray disc. Just because a movie has grain doesnt mean its not HD. As a matter of fact, if it is shot on film, i better see some grain! Beyond that, Dracula on Blu-ray looks great, even with the color changes, and one or two scenes with a darker image from previous versions. Its HD, but maybe i dont understand what your asking. Sorry if thats the case.