A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Just because he is taking a direct screen capture from the BD doesn't mean that software is set up to accurately represent what is on that disc.

Also screen captures in any form are by definition inaccurate because they aren't moving. As I said the writing is very faint, and if it were just a still it may very well blind into the background. but its not a still its a moving image, and the writing is clearly there.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

So you haven't seen the answer print?

Notwithstanding your holding your colleagues in high esteem, the grounds for which no one would think to impeach...are there no cases where professionals have differed in the art of faithfully transferring film to video? Is vision infallible? And should trust in craft result in deference that trumps our own eyes?

You know, I imagine FFC would trust his cinematographer to get the shot, but he's still going to look at the footage at the end of the day.

Pun intended: The Eyes have this one, and--speaking for myself--I'd be curious to screen the answer print opposite this latest transfer to see whether it squares...even if it's just to confirm it's faithful.

The opportunity to see for one's self: Bigger than trust, larger than ego. Not one I'd pass up.




--Jack

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Finally got a chance to watch this movie in Hi-Def last night and I really enjoyed it. This is my third viewing of the film (theater, regular DVD, and now Hi-Def) and I was very impressed with the presentation overall.

I had no problem noticing the journal writing; it was very dark but still noticable. My display is a Sony 70" SXRD XBR2 Rear-Pro and my player is a Sony BDP-S300 hooked up via HDMI directly from player to monitor. I can't do screen grabs but I simply kneeled down in front of my TV and took a digital photo with the movie paused and the lights out. With my display tweaked the photo was too dark overall so I bumped up the brightness setting 15 steps just so you could see that the letters are in fact present on the transfer.

It's more difficult to notice the lettering in a still image but when you're watching the movie, the camera is slowly zooming in towards Jonathan Harker and the journal entry just hangs over the image as an overlay - a very neat visual affect in a movie that's filled to the brim with neat visual affects. Like I said, it was very subtle but definitely noticable. Unlike many of you guys, I can't recall the exact visual nuances of a movie I saw in a theater fifteen years ago (or even last week!) so as far as colors go, I really have no idea. But I must say that I have no trouble believing that this presentation represents how the film is supposed to look. It looks great!

Happy viewing!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Sorry Ryan, no offense but if you think that your screengrab with brightness increased 15 clicks equates to what was previously visible on the DVD, I don't know what to say to you... Can you see the word "any" in your grab? 1/2 the words are now invisible in comparison, and your own photo with the brightness bumped 15 clicks up just proves it. And do you normally watch your discs with the brightness 15 clicks too high? I hope not. Which even MORE proves the point.

Try the next shot...






I am truly curious how many words are visible with the brightness even bumped 15 clicks higher than normal.

Not trying to be a wiseass but look what you're saying. The transfer is ok because if you watch it with the brightness 15 clicks above normal, you can see some of what was once clearly visible on every other version. IS that what you're saying? That the transfer is fine because it will look normal if you watch it with the brightness cranked 15 clicks above normal? To me, sounds like a botched transfer. There are supposed to be standards.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

So, we have Robert Harris vouching for those who made the transfer from the answer print, essentially saying that they are highly professional and honest. Yet this is still not enough. Somehow I feel sworn affidavits would fall short of satisfaction.

As was said months ago now, it's okay to not like the look of the film. Not liking it doesn't change the continual reinforcement of fact that the new transfer more closely represents the answer print.

I know it's frustrating to those who are used to the older, less correct per the answer print look, but why can't we agree on this being a matter of preference and not some vast conspiracy to cover up a special industry lie?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Because we have eyes, have seen the new transfer, remember the older ones including the theatrical release and can actually think for ourselves?
Just because someone tells me a transfer looks "great" doesn't mean that I and dozens of others including most reviewers have to think it is. (But If that IS now the case then HTF has lost alot of it's old self. What's the point of posting opinions here anymore? It's either get with the groupthink or begone!)

And you know what? Why has the issue of ALL the previous transfers including the $100 COPPOLA APPROVED LD being WRONG and INACCURATE never come up before this new revision-y version? Shoot. How many times did they GET this wrong yet charge us all good $ for it? The VHS, The WS VHS, The COPPOLA APPROVED LD, the DVD, the SB DVD, hell even the theatrical prints were simply all wrong yet never a word about this? mmhmm...
I'd just LOVE to hear the explanation for why Dracula is now bathed in GREEN moonlight. Wait. GREEN moonlight when it was always blue. Blue to green isn't a subtle color timing shift.
Well, the WRONG version looked better to I'd say around 2/3 of the people who have commented on this on various forums.


I would just love to hear, "We reduxed Dracula, Hope you like it." (Not uncommon for Coppola or Zoetrope. Apocalypse Now. Been reframed for video, Reduxed. The Outsiders has been reduxed. Hell, even paidgeek from Sony alluded that this was going to be a new "director's cut" until that was squashed.) Just say, we tweaked it. This is how we prefer it now. Fine.
Not, This is how it always was supposed to look and all the other versions were just wrong. We just couldn't get the theatrical prints right. That just sounds like BS to many. And many liked the older version with the crazy colors and the uncrushed blascks.
maybe, just maybe they will realize that there IS a market for an HD version of the "wrong" look! We'd pay for it. To see the wondrous sets again. The colorful, oscar winning costumes again in color throughout the whole film again, the superimposed special effects better again.

Business idea, Kim.


I can dream, can't I...?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I didn't watch the movie with the brightness setting bumped up. I only bumped it up for the photo because the image captured by my camera with the display at reference level was much darker than what my set was actually displaying (the fault of the camera). The reason I cranked up the brightness and snapped the photo was to prove that the journal writing is in fact there in the transfer. With my set tweaked using the DVE disc and watching the movie, I can clearly notice the journal overlay. In other words, I can clearly notice the visual affect with my display tweaked but my camera is unable to visually convey it.

This is the best visual evidence I can provide that the writing is visible and I can see it when I watch the movie (with settings at reference level). I seriously doubt the original intention was for the viewer to be able to read all the words on the screen while listening to Harker's narration. I believe it's just supposed to be a subtle visual affect similar to many other visual affects employed throughout the film.

Also, I don't mean to imply that (even with the brightness cranked) I see anywhere near the level of detail in the lettering that was present on the SB DVD (is that the point?), just that I see much more detail (at reference settings) than is visible in the screen grabs being bandied about.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

And in the following shot, were the words also clearly visible?

And even so, many words that were visible previously are simply crushed into black now. The effect was previously unsubtle and quite melodramatic and even brought chcukles from the audience in the theater, (and yes, I recall this on several occasions). Now they are mostly subliminal with many people watching the new disc stating, "If I didn't know they were there, I wouldn't have even seen them."

Considering how over the top the film is, (well, was...) something being subtle is not par for the course.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Because we have eyes, have seen the new transfer, remember the older ones including the theatrical release and can actually think for ourselves?

You can see and like the older transfer better, but it doesn't make the new transfer better match the answer print any less.

Just because someone tells me a transfer looks "great" doesn't mean I have to think it is.

And that's fine. I have no problem with this notion of not liking the new transfer. My problem is in the continual supposition of it being incorrect per the answer print, because it has been succinctly related as otherwise.

And you know what? Why has the issue of ALL the previous transfers including the $100 COPPOLA APPROVED LD being WRONG and INACCURATE never come up before this new revisions-y version?

Because, as Mr. Harris said in the very first post of this thread:

"Earlier versions of FFC's Dracula were properly tuned for earlier video systems, that among other problems turned black into video noise. For that reason they were never what they should have been, as electronic goals needed to be met. To put it simply, the ability of the reproducing medium was not yet in tune with the art to be reproduced. They always came as closely as they could. And understanding the limitations of the medium, were approved. There was no way around this.

That is the reason why earlier video releases don't matter."

You can't get a more black and white statement than that.

Shoot. How many times did they GET this wrong yet charge us all good $ for it? The VHS, The WS VHS, The COPPOLA APPROVED LD, the DVD, the SB DVD, hell even the theatrical prints were simply all wrong yet never a word about this? mmhmm...

All previous video releases were, to my understanding, based on the transfer process as described by Robert Harris in the statement I just quoted.

As for the theatrical presentation, if one ignores the problem with memory recall, and agrees that the answer print is the only true source of reference, that means that original copies for theatrical release were incorrect, yes. Perhaps somebody freaked out at what Coppola had done with the film when seeing the answer print and botched the theatrical copies of it back then.

In fact, Mr. Harris previously addressed this as well:

"An occasioinal release print can come somewhere in the area of an AP, but this seldom occurs, as they are printed in different ways, on different equipment and to far more loose standars;

Most release prints do not fully realize the filmmaker's intent. Some may, but it's the luck of the draw. Generally better prints will be shipped to larger cities and top venues, while those that are 3 points cyan or magenta will end up in Nell's Storm Door Company and Moving Picture House in Horse's Breath, Montana;

Probably to cover film-based problems and anomolies which could not be dealt with in the analogue world, such as chemical stains and dirt;

It cannot look like the OAP, but no one wants to match the OAP in these regards;"

In any case, the answer print is the key. It has been verified as being more accurately represented in this new transfer. These are the facts about the original look of the film at our disposal.

Well, the WRONG version looked better to I'd say around 2/3 of the people who have commented on this on various forums.

And like I said, that's fine. It still doesn't change the facts. I mean, I despise the color timing of Heaven's Gate, as the sepia tone simply makes everything UGLY in my view, but if that is what Cimino wants and it's on the approved answer print, so be it.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Well, then they missed a golden opportunity.
They could have releaed an INACCURATE HD transfer that actually looked like the theatrical version and would have made ALOT more money.
Most of the hardcore fans are not thrilled with the BD, they are more like, "WTF happened to the film I loved?"

Wouldn't any company take an interest when 2/3 of the loyal cutomers when presented with an "improved" version of a product are very dissatisfied?
Seems like something that shoud concern them, not just, "The produsct is PERFECT. You just don't know any better!"

Or good lord, isn't it just POSSIBLE that this isn't a flawless transfer? Has it happened before? yes, it has. The Fifth Element.
FUll Metal jacket. That recently got a new 1080P transfer that is VASTLY superior to the old vertically filtered 1080i transfer that was said here to be pretty darn swell IIRC. So not exactly unheard of.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

While you make an interesting case for not rocking the boat, so to speak, I think you may be exaggerating the numbers. While there has certainly been a noticeable voice of disapproval such as yours, I don't see it as being quite 2/3rds of the potential customers out there, especially when you consider it's only the internet crowd holding the conversation, which is likely the minority of stated customers overall.

Furthermore, I think you overestimate the number of people out there who even bother to calibrate their systems and are in the know for something such as correct color presentation on home video in the first place. Frankly, most buy a movie they like, and that's that. I've seen people watch a favorite film 16x9 stretched to fit a 4x3 TV with the brightness and contrast completely out of whack and not even blink. That's an extreme example, for sure, but the point is that most people don't think past buying the disc, inserting it into the player, and pressing play.

I also hope you don't feel I am being critical of your efforts and viewpoints. I think it's very admirable that you, and others, are so passionate about the film, and I empathize with how frustrating the new transfer is to you. I just feel at this point the previously compelling conversation has become rather stale in its redundancy, and I honestly feel it would be in the best interest of all parties involved to let it go as it currently stands and move on to other subjects and topics. There are dozens of new Hi-Def releases out there since Dracula came out in early October - let's get as passionate about them, too!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

well said.

I (and many others) would have loved to see an HD version of the film we loved and paid time and time again to view or own previously. I also saw BSD at a revival in 35mm many years after it had been released on home video and it looked more or less the same, (obviously much more detailed) color and shadow delineation-wise. This new Tim Burton-ization just strikes me and many others as off and revisionist is all, even if it WAS what was originally intended, (though many have their doubts) the original screwed up version was much more dramatic, original and striking. The new (even if correct version) is dull, flat, murky, lifeless and ordinary IMHO.



Happy Holidays, Brandon!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Isn't it just possible that on NTSC equipment Mr. Coppola didn't like the way the original color timing looked, so he had it changed to be more palatable on the limited play back ability of said equipment? And now that the high def displays are more faithful, the original color timing would now be able to be displayed more accurately.

In other words the previous version maybe approved, and still not match the answer print.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hi Douglas!
That would make sense except for the fact that on the new HD transfer, (and the new DVD which is still limited to NTSC) there is significantly LESS color in a good 1/3 of the film. Some scenes look virtually monochromatic now. So with a system capable of reproducing much more variants in color and much bolder saturation without say, "bleeding" reds, (pun intended) he opts for LESS color now?!?!?
And in the thetrical prints, the color looked much more like the old versions. I have the Eiko book and the really beautiful, subtle colors and shadings in the earth tones of the vampire hunters costumes previously visible now sadly just look greyish and dull in many of the newly revised shots like on the train. I'd really love to hear her take on the new version.

Anyways, happy holidays!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave, I believe you are in the throes of a pair of psychological phenomena. The first is called the persistence of refuted beliefs. This is when an individual, when told he may be wrong, continues to hold to his beliefs in spite of evidence to the contrary. The second is a situation where an individual believes he is in the majority simply because of the perceived "rightness" of his beliefs. I can't remember the exact psychological term for it, but it does exist (this is what happens when you change disciplines midstream and begin focusing on a career).

These phenomena happen to everyone, and are no indication of your relative sanity.

I think it's best to remember that memory is a reconstructive process and is rarely perfect. I deal with memory issues on an almost daily basis, and I can tell you from experience that the average person has difficulty recalling what happened 6 months ago, much less 15 years ago.

I think it's time to put this issue to bed. Grover Crisp is a reliable source (this is the guy who oversaw the amazing Major Dundee reconstruction), as is Mr. Aubry. If they say the BD is an accurate representation of the answer print, that's good enough for me.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

First of all, I've said numerous times that I have also seen this film years AFTER it had released to Home Video on 35mm at a revival so your 15 years number is off. Secondly I saw it after having watched it on home video and if it had looked this glaringly different I, (having graduated rom NYU filmschool and actually having earned some $ shooting actual film with actual film cameras, as well as editing, negative cutting myself in the pre-AVID days) would have instantly said, "woah. That looks ALOT different that the copy I have at home."
Also dozens of other people at AVSForum, DVDtalk and HighDefDigest are suffering from this same phenomena with just this one specific title?

THAT'S a bit of a stretch.

I think the explanation of, "We never got the theatrical prints to look the way the answer print looked" is a better one.
And your theory still doesn't explain why there is now GREEN "moonlight" (used to be blue) flooding over Dracula. Or a green flame on the castle wall.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

You seem like a really cool guy Dave but damn....

*unsubscribes from thread*

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Well Dave, no matter what they say I am glad you fought on. You have convinced me and I bet someday you will be vindicated. Who knows, it may take 10 years but it will happen.

Thanks for all the info.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I will indeed be the first to say watch it and judge for yourselves. I'm not saying don't. You might prefer it. Some do.
All I'm saying is that many, (the majority on the other forums I have mentioned) seem displeased is all.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

1. Is it not possible that mistakes were made? Regardless of how professional and honest the people were who were involved with the transfer, isn't it possible that they screwed up in a couple places? We have ample evidence in the past of releases being screwed up despite having skilled and professional people working on them (Star Wars release with switched channels being a prime example).
2. Ok, let's assume the "darker" version is how Coppola wanted it. Why do these directors try to eradicate earlier versions of their films? The versions that people watched and fell in love with? What if Abel Gance came back to life and ordered that Napoleon only be available in a newly colorized, 90 minute version, with voices dubbed in, because that is how he originally envisioned it. Would that be alright with Coppola? The recent releases of Close Encounters and Bladerunner are the right way to do these things. Heck, I think it would have been great for marketing purposes and sold more copies had they released both versions of Dracula. Lost opportunity, and in the process it has alienated some fans.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

??
There was no earlier version than the 1992 version of this film. That's when it was made.

If the BD version looks exactly like the Answer Print of the 1992 version - that's how it looked in the theatres (or should have looked) and how Coppola and his Director of Photography wanted that film to look.

No revisionists in sight (except perhaps the people who want it to look like a misguided later media version).


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Most people saw this film in 1992. Then they owned various video incarnations which may or may not have matched the look and intent of the actual answer print. I don't know about everyone else, but I have a hard time remembering exactly how a film looked a year ago, let alone 15 years ago. Now these people, 99.9% of whom haven't seen the theatrical version in 15 years and probably 100% of whom have never seen the answer print complaining about the new version on Blu Ray. What is not up for debate is that the Blu Ray is different, that is a fact: observable, recordable, repeatable. However the screenshots Dave Mack (whom I respect) has posted here do not match what I see on my TV when I watch the BD.

On the other side of the coin, you've got people involved with the film claiming that the Blu Ray version matches the answer print.

Now I agree that directors and talent have lied before. I know all about "Greedo was always supposed to shoot first." But Coppola doesn't have a revisionist history, at least in terms of covering things up. When he does make changes (Apocalypse Now Redux, The Godfather Saga/Epic) he is very transparent about the changes.

In fact I wish he was more revisionist because I badly want the Godfather Epic on Blu Ray, but I bet he'll only give us the original films, just like DVD.

So for now, given these facts, and also that when I watched Dracula I didn't notice anything glaringly wrong, I'm going to have to put my faith in the hands of the people who made the disc. Sony has, after a brief period of sub-par releases, become the pre-eminent studio in terms of A/V quality for Blu Ray (and why shouldn't they, it's their freakin' platform!). The Coppola folks have been vouched for by RAH. And yes, I'm a bit old school I know, but I have met RAH at an HTF function and I respect him, and anyone he respects I will honor until it is proven otherwise. This is simply my choice, others will disagree.

Fokker out~!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave, we all understand how you feel. We get that you don't like the new look. We've heard the evidence from both sides.

Look, I'm all for standing up for your beliefs, but the redundancy here is seriously bordering on obsession.

I don't want to have to usubscribe to the thread. People will say 'you don't have to read the thread if you don't like it'. That's not the issue here. I am interested in the thread. I do want to hear peoples opinions.

The problem is that you've added nothing new in the last 6 pages of posts. Every day my jaw drops in disbelief that you've posted the exact same set of images again. Please! You've stated your case! When I see a new post to the thread, I'm excited to read something new about peoples opinions, but am dissapointed to scroll down through yet another posting of the same pictures that are on the first 3 pages of the post.

We all get your position. I urge you to either contribute something fresh and new, or as so many others have stated, let it rest.

Happy holidays!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Fine but that wasn't exactly the case. First I was told that my calibration was off, (read back in this thread or in the old one that was CLOSED) that the screenshots I took were incorrect and didn't represent the transfer although dozens of people seemed to be seeing the same thing.
Then I found corroborating evidence from a member of another forum that pretty much exactly matched what mine looked like. So I guess my PJ was ok? My calibration was fine.
Then his shots were accused of being inaccurate or perhaps manipulated (like we have some weird agenda as was suggested on BluRay.com)
Now recently I am accused of sufferering some psychological phenomena.
I have let it go several times but when people keep suggesting that the shots I posted are inaccurate, or I have an agenda, or I am suffering from some odd false memory, I feel compelled to say something.

I won't say another word. I just felt like I kept having to explain or defend my opinion time and time again. I'm sorry that this discussion had to be in Mr. Harris' thread. I had one before all this that was closed and when I asked if we could start another one just to discuss what we were perceiving, I was told, no, post all comments re: Dracula in this thread.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I believe that one very interesting result of this thread is going to be a great wall of silence between those attempting to properly prepare home video releases for public distribution as well as those working in restoration, to not discuss the background of anything.

Yours truly will likely, for the most part, join in that wall of silence.

Things will be what they are, and that will be the end of the discussion.

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I deeply hope that that is not the outcome from this thread as I feel this community greatly benefits from that insight.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I understand the frustration from those in the business that feel it doesn't do them any good to explain the results of their work, when there are those that refuse to accept their explanation. It's a shame that such a result has come from this discussion which for some strange reason never ceases as the same things are stated over and over again.

I think such a mind set from all concern doesn't do much good and causes only bad feelings to remain long after a particular discussion finally dies out. I guess in the end we will see what happens in the future when such a discussion takes place again with some other title, but that thread will be fueled with nothing, but speculation because nobody in the know will say a word to enlighten us as to what we're seeing or hearing on any particular title. I really hope that doesn't come to fruition, but I've heard industry frustration first-hand so I think it's going to happen.






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I really doubt that there will be a "great wall of silence" because of this thread.

Since when has it been bad to have a public discourse about anything? Ideas flowing are always a good thing, even if we do not always agree.

Your leaving and silence is up to you. I like reading your comments but I feel like that may only be a one way street.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

You're wrong as I've received similar comments from others in the business regarding other discussions that have taken place on this forum.





Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

If that does happen I will also be sorry. I thought as long as we were all polite and discussed this in an adult manner that this would be fine, even a learning experience for many, myself included.
Once again, I'm sorry that this was all in Mr. Harris' thread.