A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Well, one reason I posted these is because earlier, several suggested that my PJ was dark or the calibration was "off" and it wasn't.
The whole point of the above shot (it would seem since there is a similar one a few minutes earlier) is to have the words from the journal superimposed over Harker (in an old-timey artsy way) and now in the BD for the first time in any version, they are basically invisible. Kinda defeats the purpose of the effect.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Watched this last night. There is no way the black levels on this disc are correct. C'mon, guys. There are several scenes where you can't even make out what is going on. Whole sets and special effects lost in blackness. The dvd versions may have been too bright but it looks like with the bluray they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Two questions for the people in this thread to consider-
1. Do you think the Xylon screenshot is an accurate picture of how the BD disc looks?
2. If your answer to question 1 is yes, then do you think that this reflects FFC's wishes for that scene?

I'm very interested in how many people respond yes to question 2.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

The SD screen capture actually looks more like what I'm seeing on the blu-ray. The words on the left side of the screen are just visible, very subtle.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Xylon's screen captures are accurate. It's not like what I did aiming a camera at a screen. His are directly off the discs and his rep at AVS is very high. Check out the thread over at AVS, pretty much everyone is concurring that the BD capture of this scene is exactly what they're seeing.
The words had always been clearly visible before in home video and in theatrical prints, (I saw a revival years after it had come out and even after it had hit home video, the words were easily seen) The point of the shot is to show visually what he had been writing in his journal as there was a scene earlier done similarly. It just seems odd to suddenly decide that they just should be crushed into invisibility.
Ans still to this day, FFC himself has not been confirmed as to have even SEEN this transfer let alone approve it. The most we've been told is "a rep from Zoetrope conveyed Coppola's wishes to the guys at Sony doing the transfer"
You know how marketing loves to tout anything they can. If this transfer had been personally supervised by Coppola, you can pretty much guarantee that that would have been in a press release or even printed on the case of the disc.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

That one shot is my only beef. I missed it the first time, when i rented the disc. I had to pull the SuperBit back out to see what i couldnt see on the Blu-ray. I have to say i really like the Blu-ray disc...minus that bit O' detail.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

As an A2 owner, I can only comment on the 2-disc DVD release.

I wasn't put off by the color 'changes' verse the older DVDs, in fact the color purity, detail in the costumes, and flesh tones seemed better than the Suberbit disc.

However once the plot moves to the castle, the darkness becomes impenertrable and the transfer fails IMHO.

The commentary isn't really that good either, as FFC reports he hasn't seen the movie in years and that the movie 'keeps going' (leaving him unable to keep up).

Maybe if the commentary had been done with his son, it would have worked out better.

I also wish the 'Blood is the Life' doc had been expanded only, instead edited down to make room for newer stuff (was keeping it to 30 minutes a cost issue?).

The DVD packaging is nice, but the cover shot still makes no sense to me. The DVD disc art is also very nice.

Based on all of this, I'm going to sell off my Superbit case with disc1 from the new set in it.

I'll keep the new packaging, my blood-red SB disc, the extras disc.

The new transfer and the commentary just didn't work well enough for me.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Nope. Mits hc3000 DLP. Considered a very good PJ and indeed calibrated.




These are taken directly from the discs. That's a pretty dramatic difference. And everyone saying before that perhaps my dispaly was "off" can now see that that's not the case. Maybe those seeing the firelight scene on the new BD as still looking "warm and saturated" need to check their displays as that's certainly not what's on the disc. This film was always perceived as a riotous, over the top almost operatic looking and EXTREMELEY colorful film. Read any review by critics when it was released. One of the major criticisms also was that the film just wasn't scary. So now in many scenes the color is virtually stripped away like a more modern Tim Burton look, and this is what was right all along? Then why wasn't it just shot that way in the first place? Why spend all the $ on the riotously colorful costumes and sets if they would be virtually monochromatic in the end? Revisionism is fine. Just be up front about it. Coppolla has changed "Apocalypse Now" for home video, altering the AR and the earlier color timing so it's not as if this is unprecedented.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

I'm not sure, but are you now comparing the BD to the DVD again?
And why?


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hiya Cees, because if you re-read the thread in many cases people were saying that my display must have been "off", not "calibrated" and my perceptions were wrong or my own shots were not conclusive. Now thanks to Xylon at AVS who has taken direct captures from both the BD and the DVD, what I and others observed can at least be discussed objectively without the adequacy of my equipment questioned. Before several people said they weren't seeing what I was seeing or that my equipment was wonky. Now with the captures showing EXACTLY how both look, I can at least be exonerated somewhat.
This title is weird. At HTF, we have always been able to discuss software and how it matches the original theatrical presentation as long as everyone was polite and respectful. This title seems to have some weird conditions though.
It's like if one disagrees with the studio line, that's no longer ok.
The shot above where Keanu is kneeling with the words from his journal superimosed over him is now way too dark to even see the words anymore. The fact that this scene and it's effect was previously visible in the "incorrect" looking VHS, LD and DVDs but now in the "accurate" BD is not when it's clearly suppossed to be is interesting. There are also many other shots which have what look like "errors" as well. When Dracula crawls down the castle wall now, yes the blue moonlight is severely reduced but the flame from the torch on the wall, (which is flame colored in other shots) is now green. Green. His robe which is always red now looks almost purple.









This "revised" shot seems like a mistake. It looks too dark now for the effect the filmmakers were clearly trying to achieve with the superimposed words. It happens in transfers. Not every transfer is flawless. Ususally at HTF when we notice things in a new transfer that are different, framing, color, brightness issues, we can discuss them and it's ok. With this title it really seems that any criticism is "verboten" for some strange reason. I'm sorry I continued but now that I have the actual screengrabs, I wanted to show that what I specifically was talking about was not a product of my display being "inferior" or "off" is all.

Since the other thread was closed and this sort of became the official BSD thread, isn't it okay to still rationally and politely discuss this disc?

d

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

No, it's certainly not "verboten".

But I personally wondered if this isn't just a repeating of the previous discussion. The way I understand it, no-one disagrees that there's a difference between the DVD and the new BD. However, as has been argued, the new BD is made to resemble the answer print much more closely, and thus, if the DVD version deviates too far from that, it's simply "wrong".
I also understand that the answer print is signed by the director of the film, or the director of photography.

So, when you want to continue the discussion - and you have indeed every right to do that (we're mature enough to blame it totally to you in person ) - you cannot rightfully suggest that the BD image "should be" different, just that you would like it to.

That's why I was asking. You're not comparing the BD with the theatrical presentation, aren't you? But with the previous DVD instead.


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Cees, I just wanted to just clear up that my perceptions were not based on my PJ or any calibration which is what MANY suggested if you reread the thread. And actually I am comparing the BD a bit to the theatrical presentation because I also thought that the release prints were reported to be off as well and that they actually more resembled the DVD than the new BD. But there are shots like the above Harker journal one that just seem too dark now. I saw this in the theaters several times and even more recently at a revival after the VHS had come out and the above shot certainly had the words from the journal visible in the theatrical prints that I saw. My filmschool geek buddies and I always pointed that out as a neat, "retro" shot.
Now if the shot is suppossed to be so dark that the words are pretty much invisible than that is indeed a revision. (Hey, filmmakers do it ALL the time) but why shoot and print the words if they are "suppossed" to be invisible? Makes no sense whatsoever.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

I see.
Unfortunately, I cannot help you either, although I saw it originally in the theater. But I don't remember that writing at all.
(So, who knows, maybe it was really invisible. )


Cees

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Again Dave I have to say that these captures look nothing like the Blu-ray that I'm looking at on my system. They don't accurately represent what I'm seeing at all.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Then with all due respect, maybe your system needs tweaking, Douglas, and not mine. These are captured DIRECTLY off the Blu ray RAW. This is EXACTLY how they look on the disc. This is not even in dispute. The method he is using is pretty much the definitive way to do it. You are now looking at your computer screen reading this thread, yes? Does that match up with your display? Pretty much everyone in that thread agrees with his shots and how they look. The fact that on your system the firelight scene still looks "warm, amber and saturated" where on nobody else's display and not even on the disc itself should make you wonder. I would honestly love to watch the new BD on your settup as it seems you have the only one where it looks like the old SB dvd. Seriously! I'll bring the beer! I would LOVE to see a higher res. version with the colors similar to the earlier releases and theatrical prints.




He is pretty much considered the authority there for screengrabs and he explains his procedure and nobody at that entire site disputes him or his grabs. Believe me, he does not have an agenda with this one title and is not altering anything to make a point. Why don't you take some grabs, I have and he has. So far, ours pretty much match up, even with my primitive "taking a photo of my screen" grab.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Those screencaps look exactly like what I am seeing on my system. I don't know how anyone who has seen the bluray and those screencaps can say they look nothing alike, unless they are running their system in torch mode with their colors way out of whack.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dont forget Dave, our computer monitors may not be set up the same. Just because the image is sent right online, doesnt mean Doug or i see it how you do. Having said that, the one scene with the writing superimposed, that you can't see now, is the only one that bugs me. I can live with green fire. Its magic fire...right?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

My computer monitor is calibrated using a Gretag-Macbeth colorimeter, so I know that it is accurately reproducing neutral grey, the black levels and the white levels are all set accurately.

My HD DVD has been calibrated using the Digital Video Essentials test signals. I also used a colorimeter on the HDTV so I know that it is accurately reproducing 6,500 degrees kelvin.

My equipment has to be correctly calibrated because I make my living with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the shot with the writing in it isn't much darker, it is. But on my screen I can still see the letters. They are very subtle, but they are there.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I just watched the first 1/3 of this BD disc. All in all I think the quality is amazing. Very film-like. Has all the wonder and all the flaws of film. Film is never a perfect medium even though the one who shot it is the most talented cinematographer in the world. But I think to transfer it as closely as possible to the answer print is the only way to go.


This screencap represented what I saw on my screen. Viewing it paused for a frame anyone who don't have the disc yet will think this is too dark. But viewing it moving it looked quite right (I always told my clients in the telecine room the film is meant to be seen moving, DO NOT check it paused.). Count Dracula's castle in the middle of the night in the dark age of Europe should be dark. But my darkness and your darkness, and FFC's darkness will never be the same so yes someone will be disappointed. Yes, you can barely see the writing which raise the question then why bother put it there in the first place. But again, the mood is quite right.
And I personally think the mood of blue night and orange-color-filled fireplace room is like a cheap cinematography to me. It will look alright on B-movies but never look good on this stylish film.

Again, when you want to capture the film experience you should capture both the plus and minus of film medium. Modern telecine machine can correct everything but some Haskel Wexler's shots aren't meant to be soft?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

To Dave Mack...

The filmmaker's name is Coppola.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

corrected the typos.
And I am quite a big fan, made a special trip up to his winery to see his collection...

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Those statements seem rather contradictory.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

once again, like them or not, the BD captures are accurate to what's on the disc.
If anyone else would like to take their own captures of the BD, please do. Douglas, I honsetly would like to see what you see on the disc because Xylon's captures pretty accurately show what I and many others are indded seeing.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Can somebody please rob Frank's house and get his personal 35mm print so we can do a quick comparison and get on with our lives?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Not contradictory at all. The Blu-ray is defiantly darker than the SuperBit DVD, but its not as dark on my display as what I'm seeing in these screen captures. I can actually see the words of the diary on my system where you can't see them at all in the screen capture.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Dave,

I don't have the ability to do screen captures from BD and honestly I think screen captures have very little value.

All I'm saying is that the words are visible, very dark, but visible on my system. I'm not seeing the words at all in these screen captures. Now it maybe because when I'm watching the blu-ray the image is moving. This illustrates a major problem with screen captures which is these images were never meant to be seen as stills.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

What I found contradictory was your use of the word "Nothing" to describe how what you see and the screen grabs resemble each other, followed by an agreement that the both look darker.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

You maybe right that the word "nothing" was a bit strong. What I was trying to say is that I'm seeing detail on my system that I'm not seeing in these captures.

I was also trying to say that the blu-ray is defiantly darker than the superbit DVD. To be fair I don't have the superbit version of this movie. I can only go based on these captures as to it being brighter, which it appears to be.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

My copy of the Matrix looks green!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

tangent:

The Broadway strike is over!

WooHoo! We just moved back to NYC so it looks like I WILL have work!