A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I'm like a kid at Christmas.

I received my very first Blu-Ray player today

I christened my new player by immediately watching
Bram Stoker's Dracula.

Despite all the controversy in this thread regarding colors and
otherwise, I thought this film looked fantastic in high definition.

There was noticeable natural film grain but that didn't hamper
some of the scenes from looking absolutely breathtaking. I will
agree that black levels are very rich.

I also enjoyed the surround mix which is so much better than
what I have previously heard. I am certain this is due to the
increased bandwidth of Blu-Ray along with the fact I am using
a brand new Denon 3808 receiver with direct HDMI connections.

Very happy with the look of this film, and even moreso, I am
estatic about being part of the Blu-Ray membership here.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Hey Ronald,

Congrats on your first Blu-Ray Player!

And "Thank You!" for your quick review of Dracula on Blu-Ray. Hearing it from you and RAH (and many others), I'm definitely excited about getting my copy of Dracula this week, and checking it out for myself.

Regardless of the result, I wanted to thank you for HTF! This has been a great, insightful thread (minus the Star Wars talk ).

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Indeed, Ron.
Congrats and welcome to neutral land!

d

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Thanks for your thoughts Ron. I cant wait to see this thing myself. Waiting, and waiting for the mail. Curious why some people see the blacks as dark, deep and rich. Others see the blacks as washed out, no contrast, and with to much grain. Such a difference in our settings would be amazing.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

You're hearing uncompressed audio my friend. There is no going back. I don't know if you had a LD player but it harkens back to those days when all we had for the longest time was uncompressed PCM audio.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I'd consider buying this BD even with the new, digital color palette that goes against the red "the blood is the life" of prior versions, if this transfer wasn't so overly dark that it actually wipes out some of the optical effects and greatly obscures others. Even if you like the new colors and believe since someone with a high pay grade says this is the first correct version of the film in history, I don't know how you get past the fact that FX like Harker's writing superimposed over the image are completely lost (unless maybe you have your brigthness cranked or your setup doesn't produce blacks), other FX like the bottle dripping up could almost be overlooked, Elizabetha plummeting to her death in her note reads very poorly (I only knew what it was since I'd seen the movie before), pulsating walls are unnoticeable, and makeup and set details (like the hair on Drac's palms) can also go unnoticed.

I can buy that former versions were gamma's up past the original intent, but this new version is too dark. And maybe the original colors were more subtle than what we had on NTSC, but I don't believe the new version is indicative of the film's original intended look. I want the old-school horror film Dracula I saw in theaters, with organic colors and detailed blacks, as opposed to 21st century tweaked colors and a sea of black. Films (and HD releases) today seem preoccupied with how easily they'll render on a digital display (particularly digital-looking plasmas, LCDs, and DLPs), instead of looking like something projected in a cinema.

Those of you seeing grain in the BD (unless you're just talking about during optical dissolves where it can't help but be obvious) are surely running much larger displays than mine, but I can see film grain in many other films quite easily. So the fact I didn't notice any in what I expected to be a dark, grainy, detailed presentation is what surprised me so much. I expected a lot of gripes from the grain haters, but it just looked soft to me, like something shot digitally, on par with Once Upon a Time in Mexico maybe (same goes for color quality), not grainy.

Obviously, we've found a new film to polarize forum members (when Star Wars gets thrown into it in a big way you know that's happened), but not only do I not like this new version, I believe that even for what it is the transfer is flawed in that it was over-darkened to the point of destroying black detail.

Hopefully Sony will live up to their legend of releasing 3 or 4 versions of a film in a few years' time, and I'll eventually find an HD version I find worthy of buying.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I find it interesting that some of us seem to be seeing very different things with this release. Some of us are having trouble reading the text from the various diaries and some aren't.

I for one have no trouble seeing the text. I have my display calibrated using the Digital Video Essentials. The black level on my setup seems to be accurate based on the test patterns on that disc.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I'm not trying to sound pompous or anything, but I think A LOT of this Dracula issue has to do with display types and more likely proper display calibration - and I'm not talking just basic user settings (brightness, color, contrast which can be done with the Sony BD patterns as the display should be calibrated to the source/player). I'm also talking proper gamma setting, grayscale, room lighting (or lack of), etc., etc.

After spending a second night with this release and going through a number of scenes, I am not finding this too dark at all. Yes, it is a darker movie, but not too dark. There is plenty of shadow detail and fades to rich blacks. The colors in many scenes just pop off the screen - even in some of the daytime scenes. There is fine film grain present throughout (some scenes more than others), but this disc definitely looks and feels "HD" and very filmlike.

While I don't have the Superbit by my side any longer for comparison, I watched it enough to remember that in comparison the gamma and coloring were overblown and overly-exaggerated in many shots, the print seemed to be dirty, and compression artifacts were still present - and the BD does have more detail and depth than the DVD despite it being a soft movie in general.

Now, Dracula certainly doesn't have anywhere near the razor sharp detail and resolution of something like Crank, King Kong, or Black Hawk Down (a few that come immediately to mind) for reasons previously discussed, but it is a beautiful looking transfer and clearly treated with care.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I got this in yesterday, watched it last night. I am watching on a 50" Toshiba Plasma. I have the Sony S300 Blu-ray player. The only calibration i have done is from one of those THX set up screens.

The disc looks great.

Dave H says it better than me, but my 2 cents.
Yes it is dark, no it does not lack detail. I still see color, just not the way it was on the SuperBit. You know the screen grab Dave Mack has of one of the vampire chicks? On my display it does not look like a bad make-up job. It looks like an undead vampire. I can see the overlapped letter too. Their are shots that all you can see is someones face in a sea of black, but those are very few. I see detail in most every shot. I see the hairy palms, the drop that falls up, i can see bouncing breasts... It HAS to be the types of displays, or the rooms. If i watched this movie in my living room, full of windows during the day i wouldnt see Jack!

I was very happy with this Blu-ray rental, so now i bought it.

Thanks again to Dave Mack, and Mr Harris.
I got the BD in the mail today, gonna watch it again tonight.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I just screened this, and here are my quick thoughts:

First of all, I saw this once in the theaters in 1992, hardly reliable memory.

Secondly, despite owning both the original and SB DVD, I have watched both probably a total of three times over the 10 years I've been in DVD.

Third, I just received my new Sony SXRD KDS-60A3000 and did some personal calibration on it (using test discs, patterns and my own eyeballing of settings) but I know it's not up to ISF snuff. That said, it's certainly not on torch mode since my last set was ISF'd by Michael Chen and I grew accustomed to looking at that kind of picture over the years.

All that aside: I have zero problems with the transfer.

This is not to negate anything either side has already said. I tried to go into it with fresh eyes. I haven't screened the SB DVD since the week I bought it (most likely on release week) several years ago. So my memory on this movie is not photographic (unlike say Star Wars OOT ).

Nothing jumped out at me as "wrong" or "incorrect". Yes it was different, I know this because Dave has provided ample proof of it. But while watching it on my PS3/SXRD setup, nothing screamed "this has been tampered with" or "this isn't how this scene is supposed to look".

Also, I got to watching quite a few of the extras. It really does seem that a lot of effort went into this disc and the supplements. I'd be really surprised is something subpar "slipped past" FFC (who was involved in the supplements I saw) or American Zoetrope.

Like I said, I'm not out to invalidate anyone else's opinion. My personal opinion, to my untrained eye (in all things Dracula) it looked (and sounded) exceptional.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Could you see Harker's writing superimposed while he explored the castle? I could see the things you mentioned, jut not obviously. I couldn't see a trace of the writing, even while looking for it. And it's just that one scene I was talking about where you can't see the journal writing at all, the one exhibited in screencaps on the forums. It's pretty obvious in other spots. Of course, it helps in scenes like the train riding over the journal that it was shot in-camera and not an optical effect that got darkened.

I forgot to mention the numerous times the "silhouettes on the scrim" effect, a huge stage convention are used in the film also makes me think the film was going for a theatrically lit look originally.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

true. I always thought of it as an over the top, deliberately "theatrical" looking film.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I have never seen this movie, but have wanted to get it for a long time. And after hearing from the original post about its video quality I will finally pick this movie up and experience it for the first time in high definition!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

"HAHA, DRA-CU-LA, the foe I have pursued all my life!! HAHAA!!"

Now, it wouldn't effect the coloring alterations, but I'm wondering...if some people (with their black levels propoerly set) are actually seeing details, such as Harker's journal superimposed over the image as he explores the castle, could it be a BTB issue?
I know my TV is capable, but it's been said the PS3 won't do BTB over component, which is what I use. None of my other Blu-rays appear too dark, but most studios don't use BTB on their transfers.

I was tempted to buy it yesterday for $12.50 with the CC BOGO, but I couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. Even though I wanted to get American Psycho along with it. This seems to be one of the easier titles to track down at CC.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Definitely. They used many "old school" tricks and such to create certain look.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

That's why the new look to the coloring bugs me so much. With conventional color timing the whole image is manipulated, but now it really looks like "the eyedropper tool" was used to select just specific elements. So maybe it IS a case of "I really wanted this lighting on so and so's face or costume, but to get it I had to light, or color time, the whole scene this way, but now I can isolate just that one part of the image."

Perhaps, but I just happened to like the way it looked old-school.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Though I've seen this movie several times before on different formats, watching it again tonight on Blu-ray disc with its lossless audio track on a properly calibrated system was like seeing it for the first time.

The sound design was simply awesome and the PQ was excellent! My opinion of this transfer and the movie itself has been revised.

This disc is a winner!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

What I don't get about Robert's take on this, and titles like Halloween and Top Gun, is it's in such contrast with earlier BD reviews where he was critical of the disc for not looking like the film looked in theaters. He tore apart Casino Royale, despite the fact the disc DOES retain the film's grain (exaggerated in the B&W opening, but still prevalent throughout the film, moreso than it was for me in Dracula I'd say). I'd chalk up differences in the presentation of that film to the fact the transfer was likely made from the digital IP. I think the coloring of that film IS kind of strange, but it was likely obscured in theaters, with several generations of film on top of the digital processing, making it look a bit more conventional to our eyes.

Yet recently he's commended transfers of Halloween and Top Gun, while acknowledging they were processed for grain removal. What's with the change of heart? Those films and Dracula weren't finished with digital tools, but their retouches get a pass after Casino Royale was chastised for using the tools of its day?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Let's be certain what we're quoting. My remarks re: Casino Royale were:

"Sony's new Blu-Ray of Casino Royale is pretty. Having not seen it theatrically, I'm not certain if it isn't too pretty. But it comes off as a quality BD experience."

I don't believe that my words exactly "tore the release apart."

I did have problems with constant Sony product placement, which I found ridiculous.

I commended both Halloween as well as Top Gun as they are potentially problematic releases on video because of grain, and the final result, while not matching film was still commendable for it's overall quality.

We need to be a bit careful in discussing grain, grain reduction and digital cleanup, as it is sometimes a necessary function of achieving quality on home video.

It's also very important to keep a reasonable reference regarding grain structure. While some films merely had it, others used it for specific purposes. It is these productions that should be carefully handled as far as grain is concerned.

Yet another area of concern is black or darkness. The general video ethic is to expose everything nicely, even if there is nothing in the image to expose, or if something SHOULD be exposed. Some video houses handle this beautifully, while others...

RAH

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Sorry it took so long for me to respond to this post Grant. I wanted to watch my SuberBit so i could know what i was missing. On my BD you can just make out a hint of his diary writing after the count is seen crawling on the outer walls, and Harker is looking at a locked door. I missed it the first time, it lasts just for a moment, and only in the lighter parts of the shot. In the SuperBit you could almost read it on the screen as Harker is quoting it. I like the BD detail, and the color, but the SB has its own detail. The SB also has more film nicks and scratches.

Glad i have both, but i couldnt tell you whats right.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I apologize, Robert, as it appears my response, even as in the Casino Royale, thread couldn't have been directed too much at you, as you addressed the film's presentation quite minimally. I know at the time there was one reviewer (now I'm hardpressed to find any review that isn't glowingly positive) who was very critical and insistent that it wasn't how the film looked in theaters, that it had been overpolished for the PS3 grain-haters crowd -- this person insisted there wasn't even grain in the B&W sequence, when there quite obviously was if I could see it quite well on a 38" screen. It appears I was responding to that detraction, albeit in your thread, so I remembered where it was posted more than who made those specific statements.

Ironically, while I think the BD of that film is accurate, I still think the film's a little funny looking and would have preferred it had a more classic Bond film look. Sometimes contemporary methods just look ugly to me.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Can anyone confirm that 'The Blood is the Life' doc was altered for this latest round of video releases?

When I last saw the doc on LD, I remember some different sequences no longer present in the new version.

I remember a sequence where Oldman talked about how he uses pictures of his kids to get ready for emotional scenes (and he was shown sitting in the background flipping through a photo book while a set was readied).

I also recall a set rehearsal in Lucy's bedroom when the group confronts Dracula after he has completely drained Lucy. Dracula threats, gloats, and then finally flees.

Oldman was apparently suppose to appear in the scene as one of his human vestiges, which he bitterly complained about because why would anyone be afraid of him.

FFC finally relented and agreed to construct the 'bat suit' so the scene would pack a punch and make sense.

Does anyone still have a LD player to check the old doc, was it edited down to avoid having to pay participants more?

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

The new doc. is radically different. It shares some footage but also has all new stuff. Quite a bit is missing.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Do we see the behind the scenes footage that was on the Criterion LD of Oldman blowing his lines, and then hitting himself repeatedly in the head, finally saying, "Fucking lines, man!" That is a classic. I'll never forget that!

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I'm generally happy with the extras, but it's shame that they didn't carry over all the previously released in-house extras...

Can the old extras (Criterion and otherwise) be watched on YouTube?

I watched 'On the Edge of Bladerunner' the other day which was very cool (although probably not all together legal).

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

The rehearsal of the "bat suit" scene is there, though I wouldn't know if it was cut down. But they showed how Oldman would walk to each cast member and whisper something horrific in their ears, to help them be genuinely afraid of him in the scene. And Coppolla was telling Hopkins he was getting a bit Brando in the scene.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

On the "Rock" BR is a behind the scenes featurette where Ed Harris is getting the lines of a shot wrong about 5 times and gets progressively angrier. It's a bit disturbing to watch.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Xylon from AVSforum.com took direct captures off the BD and SBdvd discs






My previous shots were just my digital camera shooting my screen.
Here you can clearly see some of what I was describing. The black levels in the new BD are so bad now that the superimposed "writing" is virtually invisible, 1/2 the fabulous set is totally obscured and the entire inage looks unnaturally digital, altered and just unimpressive IMHO. New color timing in many scenes? Ok, even if a bit revisionist... But black levels so crappy that much of the image is now gone? Why build the amazing sets with all the detail in the first place? The entire "Harker wandering through the castle scene" is a murky, flat, soft mess where it wasn't before.
Just my 2 cents.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Thats why i kept my SuperBit. But i also have the Blu-ray, cause other than that shot, and maybe one or two others, i think it looks good, but different. I agree with your thoughts, its not the same on Blu-ray, and i dont think they mean for it to be as dark as it is.

Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

LOL - How many times do those with the film elements have to say the BD disc correctly presents the film?

Not liking it is one thing. Saying "they didn't mean it" is another, and simply untrue.