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A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

#151
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10/9/07 at 4:01pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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I was post production executive on the film in 1991-1992 and I always was horrified at what the home video and TV editions of Dracula looked like because they were so far from what Coppola and Ballhaus had done for the original release prints. So orange-y. So bright. Zoetrope’s role in the new transfer was to make sure that the transfer colorist had access to a pristine original “final answer print” to screen and refer to. A final answer print is a vaulted 35mm film print in Sony’s possession that bears a signature from the original production indicating that the director or director of photography was satisfied with the color timing and that this print was to be the gold standard...the reference for all 35mm release prints to be compared with and accepted/rejected.

I'm not sure why this statement is so difficult to understand or believe. I really think this is a classic example of people thinking they remember what the film looked like in the theater. What they are really remembering is all the times they watched it on home video. I suspect that the previous home video versions look the way they do because if they had released the film as it looked in the theater, it would have looked rather dull on the equipment of the day.

By the way, I'm seeing quite a bit of film grain on this BD version of Dracula.

Doug
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#152
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10/9/07 at 4:07pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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I have never read a quote from Lucas or seen an interview with him where he said that he never intended for Han to shoot first.
I have seen quotes from him saying exactly that.
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#153
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10/9/07 at 4:09pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by RobertR
I have seen quotes from him saying exactly that.


Where? I'd be interested to read that.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#154
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10/9/07 at 4:23pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Where? I'd be interested to read that.

Doug
http://industrycentral.net/director_interviews/GL01.HTM

Quote:
On altering the cantina confrontation between Han Solo and Greedo

It was always meant that Greedo fired first. In the original film you don't get that too well. But in terms of Han's character, I didn't like the fact that when he was introduced the first thing he did is just gun somebody down in cold blood. That wasn't what was meant to be there.
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#155
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10/9/07 at 5:01pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I'm not sure why this statement is so difficult to understand or believe. I really think this is a classic example of people thinking they remember what the film looked like in the theater. What they are really remembering is all the times they watched it on home video. I suspect that the previous home video versions look the way they do because if they had released the film as it looked in the theater, it would have looked rather dull on the equipment of the day.

By the way, I'm seeing quite a bit of film grain on this BD version of Dracula.

Doug

I watched it 3 times at the theater, and I'm 100% positive that it was indeed closer to the Superbit dvd. the orange-y color tones are what I saw in the theater. My local cinema must have had an extremely damaged reel, because no matter what, I don't think the color tones would change that dramatically from the original 35 mm answer print. Look, I don't care about this "changing coke to pepsi" argument. What I do care about is when people bring in to question the validity of other peoples memories. If Luke Skywalker's Light Saber was green instead of blue in A New Hope, no one would dare question the fact that it is different from what was shown in theaters, but because this is Dracula, all of a sudden people can't remeber the color tones of what they witnessed at theaters? Where is the logic in that?

                          

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#156
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10/9/07 at 5:22pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by RobertR

Well having just looked at the original cut of the film I can see how its ambiguous. There is a flash of white and some smoke and Greedo falls. You can't really tell if Greedo shot at all. In fact you can't really tell if Han shot either.

Doug
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#157
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10/9/07 at 5:29pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by Bryan^H
I watched it 3 times at the theater, and I'm 100% positive that it was indeed closer to the Superbit dvd. the orange-y color tones are what I saw in the theater. My local cinema must have had an extremely damaged reel, because no matter what, I don't think the color tones would change that dramatically from the original 35 mm answer print. Look, I don't care about this "changing coke to pepsi" argument. What I do care about is when people bring in to question the validity of other peoples memories. If Luke Skywalker's Light Saber was green instead of blue in A New Hope, no one would dare question the fact that it is different from what was shown in theaters, but because this is Dracula, all of a sudden people can't remeber the color tones of what they witnessed at theaters? Where is the logic in that?

Have you watched the BD version? It's really not THAT different. The scenes that have the fire light in the castle are still pretty warm. It's just that now you can see other colors in the scene that were obviously there all along. I really think this is something that people are missing in this whole conversation. These scenes are really not THAT different from what was on video before. I would describe them as more subtle.

15 years is a long time to remember if a scene was amber, or REALLY amber. I never actually saw this title on home video, I only saw it in the theater, but I can't remember exactly what it looked like then and I think I saw it 3 or 4 times.

Doug
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#158
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10/9/07 at 5:36pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Well having just looked at the original cut of the film I can see how its ambiguous.
You say that now, but was there any doubt in your mind about who shot first prior to 1997? Can you point to ANY quote by ANYONE prior to 1997 who thought it was "ambiguous" about who shot first? Also, why all the fuss and outrage if people thought it was "ambiguous"? Please. You know and I know and EVERYONE knows that the original scene shows Han shooting first.

Here is an excerpt from the January 15, 1976 Star Wars script written by George Lucas:

http://starwarz.com/starkiller/scrip..._draft_jan.htm

Quote:
GREEDO
You can tell that to Jabba. He
may only take your ship.

HAN
Over my dead body.

GREEDO
That's the idea I've been looking
forward to killing you for a long
time.

HAN
Yes, I'll bet you have.

Suddenly the slimy alien disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patrons look on in bemused amazement. Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping the bartender some coins as he leaves.
Show me where it talks about Greedo shooting at ALL.
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#159
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10/9/07 at 5:37pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Bram Stoker's Unpleasantville

That really adds to the discussion.

high resolution ipod featuring dlp hd programming is the best, almost as good as playstation 2 with wega windows media on a super cd! ps2 and tivo do dolby tv with broadband hdtv!

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#160
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10/9/07 at 5:39pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
You say that now, but was there any doubt in your mind about who shot first prior to 1997? Can you point to ANY quote by ANYONE prior to 1997 who thought it was "ambiguous" about who shot first? Also, why all the fuss and outrage if people thought it was "ambiguous"? Please. You know and I know and EVERYONE knows that the original scene shows Han shooting first.

Here is an excerpt from the January 15, 1976 Star Wars script written by George Lucas:

http://starwarz.com/starkiller/scrip..._draft_jan.htm

Show me where it talks about Greedo shooting at ALL.


I'm not talking about the script I'm talking about the finished film. Frankly I was 11 when I saw it in 77 so I don't really remember what I though other than I was startled. Honestly that is a moment where for a second or two a first time viewer has no idea what happened.

Doug
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#161
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10/9/07 at 5:44pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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I'm not talking about the script I'm talking about the finished film.
How does the script written by George Lucas not show his original intent? Amazingly enough, the 1977 film matches the scene described in the script exactly. You still haven't answered why all the fuss if people were "never sure what happened", nor have you shown me a single instance of anyone thinking Greedo shot first prior to 1997.
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#162
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10/9/07 at 5:48pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Frankly I was 11 when I saw it in 77 so I don't really remember what I though other than I was startled.
What do you mean you don't remember?! We live in absolute times my friend. Times when we can remember the intended look of a film that's nearly 20 years old with enough vividness to completely ignore the commentary from one of the films post production executives and a Zeotrope representative that oversaw the transfer. We can even go so far as to outright call the filmmaker a liar for not owning up to supposedly making color changes to his own film (who the hell does he think he is!). Even despite the fact that one of the most respected film preservationists out there is telling you what he's seeing is accurate and as close to the answer print as the film can get. If you can't remember Douglas you're well and truly screwed sir.

I do envy some of you folks. I can barely remember what I ate for breakfast last week.
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#163
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10/9/07 at 6:46pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
How does the script written by George Lucas not show his original intent? Amazingly enough, the 1977 film matches the scene described in the script exactly. You still haven't answered why all the fuss if people were "never sure what happened", nor have you shown me a single instance of anyone thinking Greedo shot first prior to 1997.


As you maybe aware the script is not finished until the the picture is locked in the editing room. The final cut of the film leaves it very ambiguous about just what happened in those few seconds, since you really can't see anything.

You're right the script does match the final scene very well, it to is ambiguous. It doesn't actually say that Han shot first. It doesn't say that Greedo didn't shoot. In fact it doesn't say that Han shot at all. It only implies it.

BTW that script comes from The Art of Star Wars and is heavily edited to match the final version of the film. Its not actually the shooting script.

I don't remember ever wondering if Han shot first or if Greedo shot at all. I never had any discussions with friend's about "wasn't it cool that Han shot first". Frankly it didn't even cross my mind until every one made a fuss about the special edition. My only problem with the special edition is that the effect looked so crappy. The newer version is some what better.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#164
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10/9/07 at 6:55pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by Romier S
What do you mean you don't remember?! We live in absolute times my friend. Times when we can remember the intended look of a film that's nearly 20 years old with enough vividness to completely ignore the commentary from one of the films post production executives and a Zeotrope representative that oversaw the transfer. We can even go so far as to outright call the filmmaker a liar for not owning up to supposedly making color changes to his own film (who the hell does he think he is!). Even despite the fact that one of the most respected film preservationists out there is telling you what he's seeing is accurate and as close to the answer print as the film can get. If you can't remember Douglas you're well and truly screwed sir.

I do envy some of you folks. I can barely remember what I ate for breakfast last week.

I know my memory is slipping cause I constantly have to write down the "printer" numbers when I'm making color changes to a project.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#165
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10/9/07 at 7:08pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Cripes, does this have to turn into a Star Wars thread? I know the point thats you guys are trying to make, but it always leads to a dead end as far as SW is concerned.
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#166
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10/9/07 at 7:10pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by RickER
Cripes, does this have to turn into a Star Wars thread? I know the point thats you guys are trying to make, but it always leads to a dead end as far as SW is concerned.


Agreed. There are just some people who think it's horrible that George Lucas messed with their childhood. I find that attitude baffling.

Doug
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#167
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10/9/07 at 7:59pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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You're right the script does match the final scene very well, it to is ambiguous. It doesn't actually say that Han shot first. It doesn't say that Greedo didn't shoot. In fact it doesn't say that Han shot at all. It only implies it.
The implication is overwhelmingly obvious, and again, NO one (other than you, apparently), EVER said prior to 1997 something like "gee, I wonder who shot Greedo in that scene, and I wonder who shot first?".

Quote:
BTW that script comes from The Art of Star Wars and is heavily edited to match the final version of the film. Its not actually the shooting script.
It's from January of 1976, before the film was ever released (or likely even shot), so I don't know how you conclude it was "heavily edited to match the final film".

Quote:
Agreed. There are just some people who think it's horrible that George Lucas messed with their childhood.
I was an adult in 1977. Show me where I said such a thing.

Lucas said Greedo was "always" supposed to shoot first. The script HE WROTE SHOWS OTHERWISE, no matter how much you're in denial about it.
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#168
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10/9/07 at 8:04pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Let's stop with the Star Wars discussion now. Thank you.




Crawdaddy
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#169
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10/9/07 at 8:06pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Great idea.

(Post deleted)
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#170
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10/9/07 at 9:07pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

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Originally Posted by Grant H
We weren't seeing this kind of digitally manipulated color until after Schindler's List in 1993, followed by Pleasantville. Unless you count colorized versions of B&W classics. And these methods certainly weren't used when they originally made Bram Stoker's Dracula, nor were they desired. At it's worst this is a botched job, at it's best this is how FFC would have made the film look were he making it TODAY, using today's modern technology, which is a far cry from what he was going for when he made the film.



Interesting. If Dracula couldn't have been digitally regraded, retimed and desaturated the way it appears on the new BRD without today's technology, it really makes one wonder about that answer print...and how much of the current look squares with original intent.

Supposing it is in line with the OAP: could there have been another way of pulling the current transfer in line with it without introducing all the digital artifacting, halos, etc.?
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#171
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10/9/07 at 9:28pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I just finished this and really enjoyed it. I loved how the dark scenes were done. Of course I don't remember much from what the SD looked like so I don't have much to compare it to. The upcm track was very impressive as well. A worthy purchase for fans of this film.

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#172
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10/9/07 at 9:42pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
The implication is overwhelmingly obvious, and again, NO one (other than you, apparently), EVER said prior to 1997 something like "gee, I wonder who shot Greedo in that scene, and I wonder who shot first?".

It's from January of 1976, before the film was ever released (or likely even shot), so I don't know how you conclude it was "heavily edited to match the final film".

I was an adult in 1977. Show me where I said such a thing.

Lucas said Greedo was "always" supposed to shoot first. The script HE WROTE SHOWS OTHERWISE, no matter how much you're in denial about it.

If you look at the link you provided, it states that the source is the Art of Star Wars book. All of the Art of books, Star Wars, Empire, Jedi, had the scripts edited to match the final films. If that is the source of the script on that site (and that site says that it is) then that is NOT the shooting script, but rather an edited version of it.

I wasn't referring specifically to you in reference to Lucas messing with childhoods.

Doug
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#173
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10/9/07 at 9:43pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Let's stop with the Star Wars discussion now. Thank you.




Crawdaddy


Sorry that will be my last comment about Star Wars......now lets argue about Dracula!

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#174
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10/9/07 at 9:45pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Johnson
Interesting. If Dracula couldn't have been digitally regraded, retimed and desaturated the way it appears on the new BRD without today's technology, it really makes one wonder about that answer print...and how much of the current look squares with original intent.

Supposing it is in line with the OAP: could there have been another way of pulling the current transfer in line with it without introducing all the digital artifacting, halos, etc.?


I don't think the new version of Dracula is desaturated at all. It's just not over saturated.

I'm sorry where are people seeing artifacts and halos? I'm not seeing them.

Doug
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#175
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10/9/07 at 10:14pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I don't think the new version of Dracula is desaturated at all. It's just not over saturated.

I'm sorry where are people seeing artifacts and halos? I'm not seeing them.

Doug



In a few key scenes around candleflame, I think. I'll scan back through for examples. There were a variety of others, especially around visual elements which were formerly more vibrant...but in being dialed back, seemed to show a shadowed border of color.

I do not actually possess this new transfer, but am expecting a rental soon; I'll do a more extensive check and comparison with the standard dvd then.




--Jack
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#176
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10/9/07 at 10:35pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Johnson
In a few key scenes around candleflame, I think. I'll scan back through for examples. There were a variety of others, especially around visual elements which were formerly more vibrant...but in being dialed back, seemed to show a shadowed border of color.

I do not actually possess this new transfer, but am expecting a rental soon; I'll do a more extensive check and comparison with the standard dvd then.




--Jack

I'm thinking that what people are seeing around the candle flames may have more to do with the filters used on the cameras than the transfer or the digital encoding.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#177
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10/9/07 at 11:20pm
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Actually Doug, there ARE weird res halos around all the candleflames and torches now that are not on the Sb dvd. Most obvious in the crypt scene and at the end when Mina kisses dying Vlad and all the candles in the chapel light themselves. It's like they wanted to keep the flames fully colored but dial everything else down so the computer or whatever just did as best as it could. It almost looks like bad matte lines.

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#178
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10/10/07 at 3:28am
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I'm not sure why this statement is so difficult to understand or believe. I really think this is a classic example of people thinking they remember what the film looked like in the theater. What they are really remembering is all the times they watched it on home video

I have to agree. I mean when I first read about this Blu-ray-release, I thought that it´s really bad or something. But as always, I like to judge things in my own eyes (I mean every review - in the end, is "just review" and one opinion), so I ordered and watched the film a few days ago.

Sure, it´s a bit soft and also dark, but it didn´t look particularly "bad" etc. It just doesn´t have the "pop" that some other HD-releases have, but films look different and they´ll also look different in HD..

Now, I have to fully admit, that I don´t own the DVD and basically the last time I saw the film was in theatres when it came out. So I can´t really comment on the DVD/VHS vs HD differences.

In the end, it seems that it comes to what "color scheme" you believe is the "correct one":
a) home video/DVD
b) Blu-ray

Option c) would be "theatrical release", but quite frankly (and no offense to anyone!) I don´t really believe that people can remember everything that went on in the movie screen back in 1992.. So it´s more or less based on each memory and that´s not good enough for me..

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#179
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10/10/07 at 8:59am
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

LOL, sorry for the unintentional thread hijack - one sarcastic comment on a scene from Star Wars, and we're off to the races.
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#180
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10/10/07 at 10:16am
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Re: A few words about...™ Bram Stoker's Dracula -- in BD

I received my copy from Amazon (pleasantly surprised how it arrived much faster than estimated date). My display is an ISF'd (Chad Billheimer) 57" Sony CRT RPTV which in reality does about 1400X1080i - contrast ratio around 50,000:1. I'm using a PS3 via HDMI at 1080i. While the set is not 1080p, it produces a very, very good HD image. Viewing is in a dark room sitting about 8-9 feet back. On any rate, I only had time to skip around to a few different scenes for about five minutes or so. So, I need to really watch the entire movie (maybe tonight). First, the black levels I saw in a few scenes were VERY rich. I mean BLACK. Some of the color - like red in the scene with the count and K. Reaves earlier in the movie just popped off the screen. Shadow detail look good in the scenes I viewed, as well. Now, it's quite true this movie doesn't have the detail and resolution seen on many HD films. However, from my brief viewing, I do not think by any means this is a botched transfer or that something went wrong. I think it's just the way the film was made with the techniques as has been discussed. Some movies have more inhernet detail than others quite simply.

Something else that really stood out: NO video compression artifacts which can be seen on every DVD. Natural film grain is (pleasantly) all that is seen as should be.

From what I've seen so far - whch admittingly isn't a lot - makes this release a no brainer if you're a fan of the film.
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