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Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

#91
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9/30/07 at 7:23am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

John!


The timestamp for the scene is 34:31.

34 minutes, 31 seconds.

Vlad's head is buish white on the SBdvd. Green on the BD.

I am very curious what color his head is in the "coppolla approved" laserdisc transfer.
If it's the sickly green, that matches the color of the mist he turns into later when he mauls Renfield and sneaks into Mina's room, than cool, makes sense and is consistant.

BD





If it's the bluish white like this in the SB dvd, than all bets are off as to what "approved" means in this case. "approved" when? Then or now...??????

Sb dvd








and do chime in Doug when you get the disc.

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#92
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9/30/07 at 9:33am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

It's a tad tricky to find 34:31 exactly due to these being CAV laserdiscs and having the timer start from 0:00 again at the start of the second side, but I think this moment comes around the "get your hands off him, he belongs to me" scene.

In which case there is absolutely no green anywhere near Oldman's hair. A quick scan around various other Oldman shots in the same general vicinity also show no signs of green.

Hmmmmmm.....
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#93
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9/30/07 at 9:44am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I always get the impression that filmmakers are utterly loathe to state very simply that:

a. Hey, I decided to go for a different look from what I originally wanted, and it's your problem if you don't like it.

or

b. Hey, me and/or my production company blew it, and the film doesn't look the way it should.
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#94
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9/30/07 at 10:10am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
It's a tad tricky to find 34:31 exactly due to these being CAV laserdiscs and having the timer start from 0:00 again at the start of the second side, but I think this moment comes around the "get your hands off him, he belongs to me" scene.

In which case there is absolutely no green anywhere near Oldman's hair. A quick scan around various other Oldman shots in the same general vicinity also show no signs of green.

Hmmmmmm.....



EXACTLY!

The vamp chick on the ceiling says, "No. You yourself never loved!" and it is the next shot where Drack looks up and looks almost guilty.

If it is NOT green than everthing the Sony BD insider with all dues respect to the guy is just a load of hooey.
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#95
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9/30/07 at 10:19am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
EXACTLY! The vamp chick on the ceiling says, "No. You yourself never loved!" and it is the next shot where Drack looks up and looks almost guilty.

If it is NOT green than everthing the Sony BD insider with all dues respect to the guy is just a load of hooey.

Okay, I just checked out that PRECISE frame and his hair is completely white. It's exactly like the SB DVD scan that you posted.

And when you watch the whole scene there's no logical reason why it should be anything else.

Interestingly, the laserdisc jacket clearly states "This special laserdisc edition of Bram Stoker's Dracula has been made possible through the generous participation of Francis Ford Coppola and Roman Coppola".
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#96
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9/30/07 at 10:20am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
EXACTLY!

The vamp chick on the ceiling says, "No. You yourself never loved!" and it is the next shot where Drack looks up and looks almost guilty.

If it is NOT green than everthing the Sony BD insider with all dues respect to the guy is just a load of hooey.
In your opinion.
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#97
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9/30/07 at 10:48am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
If it is NOT green than everthing the Sony BD insider with all dues respect to the guy is just a load of hooey.

In your opinion.
But there must be some explanation for two "Coppola approved" releases looking so different, and I can't believe the difference is due to being released on different formats.
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#98
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9/30/07 at 11:26am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
BD


Sb dvd
The contrast of the GREEN is so different from the other media, that IMHO, it has to be a deliberate decision/choice, not just an accident.

Wish someone could view the original film strip.

Paul
My Blu-ray / HD DVD / DVD Collection
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#99
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9/30/07 at 11:32am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
But there must be some explanation for two "Coppola approved" releases looking so different, and I can't believe the difference is due to being released on different formats.

I very much doubt that the version of Dracula we're seeing on Blu-ray accurately reflects the theatrical look of the film, but it may still represent Coppola's directorial vision.

Neither do I see any reason why there can't be two "approved" releases that look remarkably different (as the laserdisc and Blu-ray apparently do). It's entirely possible that the laserdisc version represented Coppola's intended look, as far as the technology of the time was able to replicate it.

Perhaps Coppola always wanted the film to look exactly like the Blu-ray version does, but he was unable to achieve it using the photochemical film processes or relatively crude video processing techniques available in the early 90s.

Now, in 2007, every element of a video image can be manipulated to the director's precise wishes (assuming the time and resources are available). Perhaps Coppola has taken advantage of state-of-the-art techniques to create the version of Dracula he wanted to see in 1992?

It's interesting to note that the director of another version of Dracula, John Badham (the 1979 film, starring Frank Langella), also caused controversy in the home cinema community when he also requested that his film be drained of colour, for its laserdisc release, saying that the (normal-looking) theatrical presentation didn't accurately reflect his intended look for the film.

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#100
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9/30/07 at 11:39am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
I very much doubt that the version of Dracula we're seeing on Blu-ray accurately reflects the theatrical look of the film, but it may still represent Coppola's directorial vision.

Neither do I see any reason why there can't be two "approved" releases that look remarkably different (as the laserdisc and Blu-ray apparently do). It's entirely possible that the laserdisc version represented Coppola's intended look, as far as the technology of the time was able to replicate it.

Perhaps Coppola always wanted the film to look exactly like the Blu-ray version does, but he was unable to achieve it using the photochemical film processes or relatively crude video processing techniques available in the early 90s.

Now, in 2007, every element of a video image can be manipulated to the director's precise wishes (assuming the time and resources are available). Perhaps Coppola has taken advantage of state-of-the-art techniques to create the version of Dracula he wanted to see in 1992?
That's the possibility I mentioned in post #93 (the other possibility being a mistake, which directors don't ever want to admit to). It would be nice if there was a statement stating simply:

a. "FFC liked a certain look then, but he prefers a different look now". Of course, no one is obligated to like the changes (we are hardly slaves to one person's "vision"), just as no one is obligated to like a film in the first place.

b. "Ok guys, you caught us, we blew it" ("directorial oversight" hardly bestows upon people the inability to make mistakes).
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#101
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9/30/07 at 11:51am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
That's the possibility I mentioned in post #93

With due respect, Robert, it's not.

I'm suggesting (well, playing Devil's Advocate) that Coppola always wanted the film to look the way it does now, but wasn't able to manipulate the image as he wanted it until now.

I am, of course, open to the idea that he's changed his mind, as you suggest!

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#102
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9/30/07 at 12:00pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I agree, it is possible.
But that's exactly what Lucas has always said, Star Wars, despite all the work and effort that these amazingly talented artists did was not what he wanted. So, the redux.
Now this. Granted it's not nearly as dramatic but when you change the colors in a scene from blue to green, that's a pretty noticeable change. It's also jarring to everyone who got used to and watched the earlier version first for years.
I would expect a bit more of an explanation then both transfers had Coppolla's approval yet end up looking dramatically different.
Well, then I will just state that I preferred Coppolla's ORIGINAL approved version of the film. Many others probably feel the same.
So if indeed Coppolla himself was involved, ( and I have a feeling he really wasn't very hands on as his wine business takes up most of his time as he even admits in his new commentary track) this is what he wants it to look like NOW.
Fine. Many artists redo, alter their work. But for an insider to say that the dvds didn't look right and this does when it seems maybe they looked pretty close to the LD which he DID approve strikes me as a bit odd.
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#103
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9/30/07 at 12:02pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I see what you're saying, Julian, and you're right, there is a difference. Of course, we're still free to say we prefer the original effort, regardless of the stated reason.
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#104
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9/30/07 at 12:24pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

And yes, he can do whatever he wants. It IS his film.
Fine. But it's now DIFFERENT looking. ALOT different looking. So just admit that and don't try and spin it like, "Oh, the DVDs were WAY off and this is the correct way it SHOULD look."
Well, then what happened to the "COPPOLLA APPROVED LASERDISC" transfer? That was wrong too? And the theatrical prints? As I said before. I saw it at a revival at MOMA (35mm print) and it certainly didn't have scenes so desaturated that they almost looked black and white!
And bottom line. It doesn't matter HOW much time and effort they put to this re-envisioning, the end result looks BAD. Virtually everybody has said so who has seen the BD disc. Including highdefdigest and Chad at Hometheaterspot.
Isn't it MAYBE just possible that this was done poorly? Isn't it? Just because they spent time and effort on it and it's in HD doesn't mean they did a fabulous job. Bad transfers happen all the time. And fine. Maybe it's just a bad transfer. But these spin efforts really do just desperately sound like spin because maybe, just maybe after the whole The fifth element on BD fiasco where they had to redo the transfer and offer an exchange, they just don't want to go through that again or spend the dough.
If Coppolla personally supervised this, it would be admitted. Hell, they'd use that in the press release and it would be mentioned on the packaging. It's not. A representative from Zoetrope means nothing.
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#105
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9/30/07 at 1:18pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
I agree, it is possible.
But that's exactly what Lucas has always said, Star Wars, despite all the work and effort that these amazingly talented artists did was not what he wanted. So, the redux.
Now this. Granted it's not nearly as dramatic but when you change the colors in a scene from blue to green, that's a pretty noticeable change. It's also jarring to everyone who got used to and watched the earlier version first for years.
I would expect a bit more of an explanation then both transfers had Coppolla's approval yet end up looking dramatically different.
Well, then I will just state that I preferred Coppolla's ORIGINAL approved version of the film. Many others probably feel the same.
So if indeed Coppolla himself was involved, ( and I have a feeling he really wasn't very hands on as his wine business takes up most of his time as he even admits in his new commentary track) this is what he wants it to look like NOW.
Fine. Many artists redo, alter their work. But for an insider to say that the dvds didn't look right and this does when it seems maybe they looked pretty close to the LD which he DID approve strikes me as a bit odd.


Well to be fair to Lucas, he was saying even in interviews in 77 that he only got about 40% of what he wanted on the screen.

Doug
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#106
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9/30/07 at 1:25pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
If Coppolla personally supervised this, it would be admitted. Hell, they'd use that in the press release and it would be mentioned on the packaging. It's not. A representative from Zoetrope means nothing.

According to this, the transfer was done in house at American Zoetrope.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...rs_Dracula/847

Doug
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#107
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9/30/07 at 1:27pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I agree. But nobody buying this new BD was expecting a "special edition" of BSD. I thought it was just gonna be the same film that I and many others have dug for years, in HD. Like the HD version shown on cable has been.
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#108
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9/30/07 at 1:30pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
According to this, the transfer was done in house at American Zoetrope.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...rs_Dracula/847

Doug


Yep, that's what I thought earlier. So why the conflicting info? Ron wrote...
"This transfer was completed last year and was overseen by a
representative of Zoetrope along with Sony's best transfer people."

Stating a representative from Zoetrope was involved but TOP Sony guys did the BD..?!?!? That doesn't sound like it was done in house at Zoetrope. It also doesn't sound like Coppolla himself was involved. A representative conveying the wishes of Coppolla in regards to the new transfer? Oooof. ALOT of room here for error IMHO. Especially if the LD tranfer actually WAS supervised by Coppolla and not just a "representative". Guess what? They look VERY different. So? Which one is more accurate? A tranfer ACTUALLY supervised by Coppolla at a time much closer to the making of the film? Or a new transfer done 15 years later that "a representative from Zoetrope helped oversee...?" hmmmmm..... Doesn't take much thinking here.
As far as I know, since it has NOT been stated that Coppolla himself approved the new BD transfer, only a "representative" from a company that is not even his primary business anymore, (by his own admission on the commentary!) then all I can conclude is until I hear different, the only known, accurate approved transfer of "Bram Stoker's Dracula" is the Criterion Laserdisc.
If it looks THAT much different from the new BD transfer (and now more and more looks like it more closely resembles the DVD transfers) then I'm sorry, the BD is NOT the definitive version in my opinion.

On one hand, approved by Coppolla transfer. LD

Other hand, new BD "overseen" by a rep from Zoetrope. By most accounts, looks pretty bad and different from the film that most remember.
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#109
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9/30/07 at 1:38pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Yep, that's what I thought earlier. So why the conflicting info rom paidgeek...? Stating a representative from Zoetrope was involved but TOP Sony guys did the BD..?!?!?

And also, I have been to NAPA and Coppolla's winery, (actually saw many of the original Dracula costumes in the mini-museum!) and he admits on the commentary that nowadays he is primarily in the wine and food business and filmmaking is simply a "hobby" if he wants to do it. How often do people think he's at zoetrope nowadays?!? The commentary was recorded back in 2006, before the new transfer was supposedly made.

I was under the impression that Zoetrope was on the property at his NAPA vineyard, but I could be wrong.

It's possible that Zoetrope did all of the color grading and encoding, and Sony did the blu-ray authoring and pressing. So when Sony talks about a Zoetrope representative he may be talking in reference to approving the final menu's and such.

It is interesting that Coppola is now clearly a more consistently successful wine maker and resort operator than he is a filmmaker.

BTW the listing on the Zoetrope web page for Dracula calls it a " New Enhanced Edition" It's also listed as a project being done by ZAP their in house DVD production company.

Doug
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#110
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9/30/07 at 1:43pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Yep, and at first we thought it might mean with deleted scenes put back in ala Apocalypse now redux or The Outsiders: The complete novel.
Now maybe it just means, remixed and remastered the way some bands come back and change their records.
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#111
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9/30/07 at 1:45pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I was under the impression that Zoetrope was on the property at his NAPA vineyard, but I could be wrong.



Doug

Pretty sure that it's in SF.

from their site...


"Throughout its thirty-year history American Zoetrope has sought new creative possibilities in technology. We continue to produce films and offer post-production services from our headquarters, the historic Sentinel Building in San Francisco's North Beach. And we continue to explore the creative possibilities of new technology. "

and mapquest...


American Zoetrope
www.zoetrope.com

916 Kearny St
San Francisco, CA 94133
(415) 788-7500
Get directions



But we have been to the winery and saw many of the costumes in the mini-museum. VERY cool!

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#112
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9/30/07 at 1:48pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I was under the impression that Zoetrope was on the property at his NAPA vineyard, but I could be wrong.

It's possible that Zoetrope did all of the color grading and encoding, and Sony did the blu-ray authoring and pressing. So when Sony talks about a Zoetrope representative he may be talking in reference to approving the final menu's and such.

It is interesting that Coppola is now clearly a more consistently successful wine maker and resort operator than he is a filmmaker.

BTW the listing on the Zoetrope web page for Dracula calls it a " New Enhanced Edition" It's also listed as a project being done by ZAP their in house DVD production company.

Doug
Well, there is something besides winemaking that had to preoccupy Coppola over the last year:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0481797/
Written, produced, and directed by FFC. Shot in Eastern Europe.
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#113
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9/30/07 at 1:48pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Yep, and at first we thought it might mean with deleted scenes put back in ala Apocalypse now redux or The Outsiders: The complete novel.
Now maybe it just means, remixed and remastered the way some bands come back and change their records.


You know its interesting. I've actually never really understood the compulsion to go back and make changes to a project that was completed years before. Once I'm done with a film I'm done with it. Thats the way it is warts and all. I sometimes look at them and somethings make me cringe, but rarely is it enough to make me want to change anything. By that time I've moved on to other things.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#114
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9/30/07 at 1:54pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Pretty sure that it's in SF.

from their site...


"Throughout its thirty-year history American Zoetrope has sought new creative possibilities in technology. We continue to produce films and offer post-production services from our headquarters, the historic Sentinel Building in San Francisco's North Beach. And we continue to explore the creative possibilities of new technology. "

and mapquest...


American Zoetrope
www.zoetrope.com

916 Kearny St
San Francisco, CA 94133
(415) 788-7500
Get directions



But we have been to the winery and saw many of the costumes in the mini-museum. VERY cool!


Ah very cool. I'd really love to get out there and see the winery. I really like some of his wines.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#115
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9/30/07 at 1:56pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarod M
Well, there is something besides winemaking that had to preoccupy Coppola over the last year:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0481797/
Written, produced, and directed by FFC. Shot in Eastern Europe.

Yes and at the moment he is shooting Tetro in Argentina.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#116
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9/30/07 at 2:04pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

His wines are actually very good and he makes a MEAN olive oil!

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#117
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9/30/07 at 2:11pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I haven't tried the olive oil. Thanks for the recommendation.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#118
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9/30/07 at 3:00pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Yep, that's what I thought earlier. So why the conflicting info? Ron wrote...
"This transfer was completed last year and was overseen by a
representative of Zoetrope along with Sony's best transfer people."

Stating a representative from Zoetrope was involved but TOP Sony guys did the BD..?!?!? That doesn't sound like it was done in house at Zoetrope. It also doesn't sound like Coppolla himself was involved. A representative conveying the wishes of Coppolla in regards to the new transfer? Oooof. ALOT of room here for error IMHO. Especially if the LD tranfer actually WAS supervised by Coppolla and not just a "representative". Guess what? They look VERY different. So? Which one is more accurate? A tranfer ACTUALLY supervised by Coppolla at a time much closer to the making of the film? Or a new transfer done 15 years later that "a representative from Zoetrope helped oversee...?" hmmmmm..... Doesn't take much thinking here.
As far as I know, since it has NOT been stated that Coppolla himself approved the new BD transfer, only a "representative" from a company that is not even his primary business anymore, (by his own admission on the commentary!) then all I can conclude is until I hear different, the only known, accurate approved transfer of "Bram Stoker's Dracula" is the Criterion Laserdisc.
If it looks THAT much different from the new BD transfer (and now more and more looks like it more closely resembles the DVD transfers) then I'm sorry, the BD is NOT the definitive version in my opinion.

On one hand, approved by Coppolla transfer. LD

Other hand, new BD "overseen" by a rep from Zoetrope. By most accounts, looks pretty bad and different from the film that most remember.
Dave,
You're welcome to believe and post whatever you want, but that still doesn't mean what you've stated in the quoted post is correct. So we can continue to point fingers at all the parties involved regarding these video releases and question their motives or involvement, but it appears to me that the studio and Zoetrope are please with the final product.

Furthermore, I'm afraid we're going to see more and more discussion regarding similar issues in upcoming releases compared to prior video releases. It started last year with "The Searchers" and it will continue with future video releases as consumers try to dissimilate the real issues involved versus the internet noise that's posted on forums which might not be completely accurate in their conclusions.





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#119
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9/30/07 at 3:08pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

So which "Hollywood artist turned Culinary Expert" puts out better food product: Coppola or Newman?
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#120
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9/30/07 at 3:30pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Well, Robert it's very simple.

paidgeek said that the DVDs were basically "off"
That they were not how the film was suppossed to look colorwise, (just leaving black levels out at this point)
Then why does the Coppolla approved criterion laserdisc transfer look EXACTLY like the SBdvd as far as the coloring goes and completely different from the BD in the scene above (and I would guess, in many more)...?
Coppolla supervised and approved the LD transfer. As far as we know, "a rep" from Zoetrope assisted in relaying Coppolla's intent to the people doing the transfer.
Which would seem to be the more definitive version then?
If the BD TRULY is correct, then that mist mean that the Coppolla approved LD transfer was wrong. Both can't be right.
The only options are. Coppolla deliberately changed the way the film should look NOW. (Which is more of a redux, revisonist thing)
or Coppolla still likes the way the LD looked and whoever relayed his "intentions" got them wrong.

How can their be 2 very different definitive approved transfers?


Or more simply.

10 years ago there was an "official, approved tranfer"

Now there is another "official, approved transfer"

The fact that they look very different doesn't strike anyone as odd...?

Unless they just disown the original "approved transfer" and say the new one is "it"

Fine, looked better before.
http://www.myspace.com/franbro
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